Who is it that has been preaching not to draft OL early? Read something today that of the remaining teams, only 4 of the 40 lineman were taken in the first 15 spots in the draft

Anyone who doesn't think winning football starts up front with the big-uglies, is clueless. It all starts and stops with the o=line.
Invest in o-line, through the draft and FA.
Until our o-line gets solidified with both quality starters and depth, this franchise will stay stuck in the mud.

The line is very important, but that does not mean you cant get quality all over the place .

All weekend I heard of starting OLS that were rookies or free agent signings.

I used to think OL was the most important unit on the team to get right. Now, I believe it's QB. But, I still rate it #2.

Earlier in the season, I did some poking around to see about sacks and rushing yardage during Philbin's tenure as OC in GB. He averages about 2.5 sacks taken per game. Their running game even in their most successful record years (2010/2011) was shared and inconsistent with a couple or 3 RB and Rodgers combining for over 1,000 but not really by that much. YPC weren't anything to write home about.

My guess is that one of the elements of a Philbin offense is that the QB will have to be comfortable with pressure and a far-from-elite running game. We send a lot of receivers into pattern, so the OL and RBs take most of the blocking responsibility. The QB has to be good at moving around throwing on the run and smart/quick enough mentally to process a lot in a short amount of time. Tannehill is those things, but he didn't do enough of it (probably by design). Accuracy deep is a major current difference between Rodgers and Tannehill. Though, I think he will improve dramatically.

I think this might be a major reason why Philbin apparently gets to stay and Sherman is gone. I don't think Philbin wanted to fire him, but Sherman wasn't exactly running things like Philbin would have. Whether or not that should have happened is a different story, but my guess is that the Rodgers-ization of Tannehill is what Philbin sort of has in mind, so QB pressure and not much of a running game might be a part of the package...a package that has achieved sustained and ongoing success recently.

Well you probably won't get a power running game out of a team with smaller, quick, athletic O-Linemen. Not that can't happen but it's just not as likely.

That's one reason our current running backs are good enough. All we need are guys that can play one cut and go football. If the guys up front can get the backs past the line and into a lane where they are pulling we should be good. Miller and Thigpen can make LB's miss in space. Gillislee also showed power as well as shiftyness in the preseason...and Thomas has enough to make one move. We wouldn't have to rely on power to gain yards. Blocking is the key and getting the right guys is critical.

They key is good OL players. if you can find them in R5 do it. Or undrafted. Just do it. the top athletes usually go R1-R2. So just do it. Finish the job for once!!!

BNF.

we had evan mathis as a street FA and cut him, and now he is an all pro guard in philly. we used to have solid lines made up of guys like that, low round picks and FAs, when we had good OL coaches. now we have high picks making up a horrible line

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

That's a very selective stat.

So 10% of the remaining linemen were top 15 picks. Sounds about right. That's 10% of just these particular 8 teams. There are also other factors at play here...and we are limiting them to the top 15 overall picks.

1. Very seldom do guards gets taken in the first round. Maybe one per year on average. They hardly ever go in the top 15.

2. There are usually 2-3 elite tackle prodpects per year. They usually get taken in the top 5 picks and then the value/talent drops.

3. The teams that make the playoffs aren't usually teams that even have a shot at a top 15 pick.

4. Centers are seldom selected in the top 15.

5. We are basically talking about LT's here.

6. Some players were not taken in the top 15 for varied reasons...maybe they dropped b/c of other issues but were top talent.

I do not see that 10% as a low number in any case.

First round picks...

Chargers: DJ Fluker
Broncos: Ryan Clady (IR)
Colts: Gosder Cherilus
Patriots: Nate Solder
Saints: Ben Grubbs
Seahawks: Russell Okung
49ers: Joe Staley, Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati
Panthers: Jordan Gross

So no we are at 10 players selected in the 1st round out of 40 players. That's 25% that were 1st round picks.

The 49er's who have arguably the best line in football is composed of (3) 1st round picks .

Many of the remaining starters are high 2nd round picks.

Like I said....selective, meaningless stat. Not sure what Mr. Hyde's point was supposed to be....

AND he is also not counting IR players...(SELECTIVE)...like Ryan Clady.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2014 07:26AM by eesti.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> we had evan mathis as a street FA and cut him, and
> now he is an all pro guard in philly. we used to
> have solid lines made up of guys like that, low
> round picks and FAs, when we had good OL coaches.
> now we have high picks making up a horrible line


What's really frustrating is that both of our last two HC's came from O-line coaching experience, you'd think they would of put a better effort into it.

But what do they have in common? Jeff Ireland invested in guys like...

Marc Columbo, Jon Martin, John Jerry, Jake Grove, Justin Smiley, Dallas Thomas, Andrew Gardner, Shawn Murphy, Will Yeatman,

Irleand has drafted 3 tackles, 3 guards and 1 center in 6 years and only two have been keepers (Jake and Pouncey/almost no-brainers). That's only 7 players at a position that occupies 9 spots on the roster each year.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

But you have to recognize that we've had a major shift in scheme along the O-Line. Ireland has had to deal with the fact that his early picks don't have the attributes or skills to run the current system very well...that'll take a bit of time to cure. Hopefully the front office will invest very heavilly this year in getting the guys we need.

Because with an effective line we are in the playoffs this past season. No other improvements required...but they should make a few anyway.

wow Ken, between this comment and your "I don't have a problem with Ireland" post, I am beginning to think you may be Jeffy himself or at least related to him!!

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

First Question asked should be , Are you a Pussy? If he punches you Take him......if he cries pass.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

They need to fire ireland.

Fire. Fire. Fire..

Ken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But you have to recognize that we've had a major
> shift in scheme along the O-Line. Ireland has had
> to deal with the fact that his early picks don't
> have the attributes or skills to run the current
> system very well...that'll take a bit of time to
> cure.

Neither do his recent picks (fit). He swings and misses on a 3rd rounder in 2013 and then trades for a player we could have gotten in FA. He also signs an aging player that has never even played in a zone. he swings and misses on a 2nd round tackle.

Hopefully the front office will invest very
> heavilly this year in getting the guys we need.

I am not optimistic if Ireland is in control. His MO is to ignore positions and make other moves. He will probably now trade two of our DE's and then sign Julius Peppers and Carlos Dunlop to huge contracts.

>
> Because with an effective line we are in the
> playoffs this past season. No other improvements
> required...but they should make a few anyway.


OK...so it is ok that we are through year two and he has done nothing worth while to correct the issue? Shouldn't this have been a year one priority?

It is understandable to sign high priced FA linebackers knowing it wasn't a high priority all while ignoring the obvious issues on the o-line? Wouldn't it have made more sense to leave the LB'ers alone and sign two stud offensive linemen last year?

There are so many issues with this guy. It isn't even debatable any more.

All of his attempts to "fix" the line have backfired with one exception....Mike Pouncey. This is what you want for a GM?

1 Drafted Jake Long
2 mis-judged and let Jake walk
3 signed Marc Columbo
4 signed injury prone Justin Smiley
5 signed injury prone Jake Grove
6 signed flop Jon Martin
7 signed flop Dallas Thomas
8 signed head case Incognito
9 signed McKinnie who doesn't fit scheme
10 signed Clabo who stunk for half the year bc he didn't fit.
11 signed underachieving John Jerry
12 kept John Jerry even though he does not fit scheme
13 drafted only 6 linemen over the last 6 years


Is that enough? that is just concerning the offensive line.

But you are right about one thing. We WOULD have been in the playoffs IF he had not messed with the LB's and just concentrated a little more on the o-line.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

We have certainly demonstrated a profound inability to effectively evaluate, draft and/or sign OL talent.

Ireland is responsible but Philbin is also responsible and supposedly an OL maven.

You just can't put a consistent product on the field with a crap OL.

We've have to solve that issue or we go NOWHERE!

BNF.

BNF......Ireland has had about 6 years to make it right while philbin is only his first year.

I blame ireland and can't wait until they can him.

2nd year...but

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

thats right eesti.


Hes been here since tannehill and its tannehills second year.

I stand corrected.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> wow Ken, between this comment and your "I don't
> have a problem with Ireland" post, I am beginning
> to think you may be Jeffy himself or at least
> related to him!!


RE: LOL, No I'm not him, nor am I related. But, I see that this team has talent (because of Ireland) and I realize that we are screaming for his head without the benefit of all of the facts. Ireland has done a good job, maybe not as good as we expect, or want, but the fact remains nontheless.

He's done a better job of adding talent overall than Belichick. He's just done a better job utilizing it and getting production largely because of the system and Brady, luxuries the Phins don't have.

In any event though, now it dosen't make any difference because Ireland's gone and we are off to the next thing...I just REALLY hope it isn't Carl Petersen and that whomever it is cures the O-Line issues without ruining other areas of the team.

Yeah Ken sure comes off as an Ireland supporter. Plain and simple 20+ picks over the last 2 years with little to show at this time.

Russell Wilson won a lot of games for Seattle this year with 2-3 OL starters (Okung, Giacomini) missing

Lines are important but good talent evaluators find talent in later rounds & FA.

the one guy off the practice squad played as good as any of our OL!

Guy's, I don't look at it as a simple Ireland made the picks, they didn't work so he's a failure kind of thing.

We don't have all of the information so we don't know what was involved in making the picks...we are just speculating and venting our anger at the apprent cause.

How many of our draft picks were guy's the coaches asked for? How involved were the coaches in the draft process? Was it truly Ireland making the picks or was it a collective kind of situation? How many players were brought in via F/A and the draft, that Ireland didn't want but the coaches felt they adamantly needed? How many players were released or traded because of input from the coaches and the list goes on...

We'll never know the answers for sure but to villify Ireland as the cause of our misery when we only know a small portion of the facts is just a bit un called for, JMO.

The fact remains that the team we have minus the O-Line is cometitive with virtually any team in the league and is able to beat most of them. This team is talented, Ireland get's no credit for any of that? I just don't buy it.

In any event, He's gone now and I sincerely hope the new guy will be able to fix the issues so we can put all of this crap to bed.

Not sure I agree with this. Seems to me that Denver had a very good rushing o-line a few years ago with a smallish o-line. I believe they were known for their ability to pull anybody, tackles, guards, or center effectively. As I recall, they were a decent pass blocking unit as well.

Rick



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2014 05:11PM by dolphan4545.

I think it would be great to pry Paul Boudreau out of St. Louis. He was here only one year before the HC (I think Wanny) and all the coaches were fired, and the line made great strides under him.

Rick

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KEN:
>
> First off, I think you are misunderstanding what
> the definition of a boss or leader is all about.
> He makes the call. No if ands or buts. He can
> listen to whoever he wants but it is HIS JOB to
> make the right decision. Blaming someone else
> because you took their advice is a HUGE cop-out
> IMO.

eesti: I'm not misunderstanding anything here. I know very well what a boss is and what the responsibilities, accountability, and expectations are. The boss is ultimately responsible for everything sure enough. I don't think I ever said that Ireland blamed anyone...I'm simply saying that the root causes are not as simple as pointing the finger at the boss and sying see you screwed this up. For ANY GM to draft players on his own based upon what he believes and the forcing that square peg in the systems round holes is not how it works in reality.
>
> I think most have been saying for the last few
> years that Ireland has indeed brought in talent
> but he failed to find stars or elite players.

RE: While there is merit in this argumant we still have to ask ourselves the why? Is it because the picks were poor or was it the coaches not utilizing them? And why were stars not brought in...maybe the coache don't think we need superstars I know, based on his history, that was the Parcells belief.
>
> I give him credit for pulling the trigger on
> Tannehill as I think he will be an excellent QB.
> Another 1st round pick.

RE: Agreed.
>
> He has done well in the first round of the draft
> and here and there in the late rounds AND with
> undrafted free agents but again....no stars.

RE: Once again, why?
>
> His undoing was in the middle rounds AND in that,
> even though a FA should be easier to scout than a
> college player, Ireland has failed for the most
> part in bringing in the right ones. You already
> know what a FA is capable of since they have work
> on tape against NFL talent.

RE: Yes but that does not explain why players that were really good in other places and looked to be sure fire upgrades...flop when they get here, Wheeler, Ellerbe, Clabo, Marshall, Dansby etc, etc. and then once again look goo when they leave on many occasions.
>
> Too many of the players selected in the first four
> rounds of recent drafts have turned into NFL
> busts. Phillip Merling, Chad Henne, Shawn Murphy,
> Pat White, Patrick Turner, A.J. Edds and Clyde
> Gates are all backups, if not all the league. And
> Daniel Thomas, Jonathan Martin, Michael Egnew,
> Lamar Miller, Jamar Taylor, Will Davis, Dallas
> Thomas, Jelani Jenkins and Dion Sims might be
> right behind them.

RE: Well you do have to have solid depth...sometimes that has to be drafted...superstar shouldn't be the ONLY requirement for using a draft pick.

Martin Egnew, and Sims had all of the tools and looked to be solid guys coming out. Thomas and Miller will be fine if we can just cure the line issues and open up some holes.
>
> Justin Smiley, Jake Grove, Reggie Torbor, Charlie
> Anderson, Ernest Wilford, Gibril Wilson, Eric
> Green have all wasted the franchise's money.

And
> even recent deals, like the ones Ireland gave
> Karlos Dansby, Kevin Burnett and Richard Marshall,
> weren't fulfilled. So far the contracts Miami gave
> Dannell Ellerbe and Philip Wheeler seem like bad
> deals. And that doesn't even include overpaying on
> extensions to Reshad Jones and Dansby.

RE: But not when they gave them the deals and now that a few of them are with other teams they look good again...not on Ireland, this is the coaches and the system IMHO.
>
> On offense we are set with Tannehill, Hartline,
> Gibson, Pouncey and a part time role for Charles
> Clay unless he gains more consistency. Wallace
> will probably work out but probably not live up to
> his price tag. That is about it. No sure where all
> the talent you speak of is at on offense??????
> That's 5 or 6 players.

RE: Pouncey, McKinnie, Brenner, Garner, Starks, Solai, Vernon, Shelby, Wake, Jordan, Misi, Grimes, Carroll, Jones, Wilson, Fields, Sturgis, Tannehill, Incognito, Keller, Binns, Wallace, Hartline, Moore, Mathews, Gibson, Patterson, Stanford, Delvin, Miller, Thomas, Gillislee, Thigpen, Sims...are all talented guys. Quite a few of those are offensive guys.
>
> On defense we are without a couple DT's, still
> have no reliable CB's under contract, have a
> flopping strong safety and free safety void of
> play making ability who is also not under
> contract. We have swapped quality LB'ers for
> flopping LB'ers... so where is all the talent at
> on the defense. Well we have a great DE and some
> good prospects there but that is about 5 or 6
> players.

RE: Not sure I disaree with this one...
>
> Now the issue is...we are without half the players
> that got us to 8 wins...now what? Ireland ignored
> too many positions for too long and not even the
> owner had enough confidence that he would do any
> better this year. I think the owner and his people
> probably DO HAVE and idea of what happened and get
> that Ireland was ultimately responsible. That's
> why he is gone.

RE: We aren't without anyone right now...some will be resigned and they should be. The roster/talent situation isn't as bleak as you're making it out to be...IMNO.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eesti: I'm not misunderstanding anything here. I
> know very well what a boss is and what the
> responsibilities, accountability, and expectations
> are. The boss is ultimately responsible for
> everything sure enough. I don't think I ever said
> that Ireland blamed anyone...I'm simply saying
> that the root causes are not as simple as pointing
> the finger at the boss and sying see you screwed
> this up.
>
> No. You never said Ross blamed anyone but you are
> blaming others for what most believe are Ireland's
> failures.

RE: I didn't blame anyone...I said that Ireland was put into a bad position due to our scheme changes. I never said he couldn't have maybe done more than he did however.
>
> For ANY GM to draft players on his own based upon
> what he believes and the forcing that square peg
> in the systems round holes is not how it works in
> reality.
>
> ????? Not sure what you are saying here.

RE: Responding to you saying that the GM has to make the decisions regardless of input from other sources.
>
> RE: While there is merit in this argumant we still
> have to ask ourselves the why? Is it because the
> picks were poor or was it the coaches not
> utilizing them? And why were stars not brought
> in...maybe the coache don't think we need
> superstars I know, based on his history, that was
> the Parcells belief.
>
> I don't know of any drafted players going
> elsewhere to be stars. Maybe a few FA's but it's
> hard to blame the coaching staff entirely since it
> has been a multitude of coaches with Ireland being
> the common demominator.

RE: Regardless of whether or not its a F/A player or a draftee the coaches have the job of getting good play out of a player...if that player does not perform its either the players or the coaches fault...not the GM. What about Burnett, Dansby, Clabo, Davis, Satelle, Gates, Ginn, Fields, Smith? They didn't just forget how to play when they came to Miami. Each of these guys has been productive since leaving us. Maybe not stars but productive.
>
> RE: Yes but that does not explain why players that
> were really good in other places and looked to be
> sure fire upgrades...flop when they get here,
> Wheeler, Ellerbe, Clabo, Marshall, Dansby etc,
> etc. and then once again look goo when they leave
> on many occasions.
>
> Marshall was good while in Miami, so were Burnett
> and Dansby. The problem was paying them so much
> only to get rid of them. Look at the dead cap
> space we pay every year. Among tops in the NFL. I
> also think Clabo played well AFTER he picked up
> the offense. Now....Wheeler and Ellerbe I don't
> see as having been great elsewhere. They were both
> one year wonders. Got paid and flopped. I never
> heard anyone complimenting either one for their
> hard work or preparation. Zach Thomas used to
> study film like a mad man because he wanted to be
> great, not rich.
>
> RE: Well you do have to have solid
> depth...sometimes that has to be
> drafted...superstar shouldn't be the ONLY
> requirement for using a draft pick.
>
> Martin Egnew, and Sims had all of the tools and
> looked to be solid guys coming out. Thomas and
> Miller will be fine if we can just cure the line
> issues and open up some holes.
>
> Still a misjudgement and a potential flop. So you
> are saying we, as fans, shouldn't judge Ireland
> because we do not know enough but you are
> endorsing Thomas and Miller as legit?

RE: I'm not saying they are legit, just that we can't judge them without an O-Line that effectively block for them. Once we get that if the flop then they are..flops.
>
> RE: But not when they gave them the deals and now
> that a few of them are with other teams they look
> good again...not on Ireland, this is the coaches
> and the system IMHO.
>
> Not really. Dansby and Burnett looked good here as
> well. I'm sure there are many factors at play
> here. System, coaching, player motivation, fit,
> chemistry...

RE: Burnett and Dansby were good in run support but were terrible against the pass...they have been good this year all the way around. I don't blame Ireland for this.
>
> RE: Pouncey, McKinnie, Brenner, Garner, Starks,
> Solai, Vernon, Shelby, Wake, Jordan, Misi, Grimes,
> Carroll, Jones, Wilson, Fields, Sturgis,
> Tannehill, Incognito, Keller, Binns, Wallace,
> Hartline, Moore, Mathews, Gibson, Patterson,
> Stanford, Delvin, Miller, Thomas, Gillislee,
> Thigpen, Sims...are all talented guys. Quite a few
> of those are offensive guys.
>
> LOL...You can list all the names you want but that
> doesn't make them stars or even Ireland
> acquisitions (Soliai).

RE: True, Soliai was Mueller's..I don't view good picks or signings as those that have to stars...the guys I mentioned were and are al quality and talented players.
>
> Sturgis, Keller, Binns, McKinnie, Garner, Devlin,
> Gillislee, Stanford....???? What have these guys
> ever done in Miami? They've been average or
> injured or absent. Some of the others have been
> decent. Does that make them talented? because they
> made an NFL team? I suppose you could say that but
> it doesn't make them stars or even wuality
> contributors.

RE: They have been conrtibutors, even if it was only in practice so far...thats all some players ever get to be. But that fact does not mean they are any less imprortant to the sucess or failure of the team. They are talented guys though.
>
> RE: We aren't without anyone right now...some will
> be resigned and they should be. The roster/talent
> situation isn't as bleak as you're making it out
> to be...IMNO.
>
> If they are not under contract they are not Miami
> Dolphins. They could just as easily walk out the
> door to the highest bidder. We only have one
> franchise tag. As far as being bleak, you are
> talking about what can be done in the future IF
> they resign. I am talking about the situation
> Ireland left us in right now.

RE: Yes they are, and not yet they can't...we will resign some of them, be sure of that.
>
> Starks and Solia could walk. Grimes could walk. We
> have no starting caliber o-linemen under contract
> except for Pouncey.

RE: One of them should be allowed to...Grimes will be resigned with a pay raise. The O-Line will have guys resigned because they are not all terrible.
>
> Ireland couldn't have signed any of these guys
> earlier. What he did do was piss of Starks and who
> knows who else?

RE: It would have made no sense to sign them early...because we need to draft a replacement for at least one of them this year anyway. Better to let them play out the seaon and retain the best player. Besides Starks was most likely the one getting the axe anyway due to his age and salary demands.