I genuinely like Marshall a ton and think he has been very good for us this year...not great, but very good.

However, I have that enduring image as well. Why is it that he stops in his tracks just about every time he catches the ball. Not only does he stop in his tracks, but he almost begins backpedaling until he crumples to the ground. I've never understood it...is it in an attempt to get YAC?

I think if we had Gabbert, Mallett, Newton, or Luck, Marshall would explode into his old form.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Maybe, but not nearly all of Henne's throws force him into this motion. On many of them, he catches them in stride and then breaks his own stride after the catch.

Also, why is it that our receivers in general (and DBs at times) seem to slip on routes FAR more than our opponents? Bess slipped on the pick 6 last week, Cobbs slipped on an incomplete that could have been a pick 6. Marshall slipped on another incomplete. All three last week. Beyond that there are many others this season - the Hartline (I think against PIT) one where the ball was in the right place at the right time but the receiver was on the ground.

In addition to timeout specialist, perhaps we need a cleat specialist. This kind of stuff can make the difference more often than we probably think over the course of a season.

I agree. Our QB play has been so awful it makes our WR’s look the same. No one ever gets hit in stride, no back should throws, no threading the needle, no perfect arched long balls, and so forth. With a real legit NFL QB this offense is immediately a LOT better and I believe fans will surprised by the talent we have at WR.

Marshall and Bess are legit ALL-PRO’s

Hartline is a very smart, surprisingly good athlete, and the kid can play.

The rookie FA’s have a lot of talent to develop.

I still like Fasano and think he’s a player. No doubt we need another target at TE.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2010 05:32AM by BigNastyFish.

The simple fact is, Wes Welker isnt as good as Tom Brady makes him look.


A great player makes everyone around them look better.

Brady does it, Manning does it, Marino did it, Michael Jordan did it, so on and so forth...

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Hitting players in stride is a really big thing. That and ball placement make a huge difference in how effective a receiver can be.

Plugs has placement. And man the dude hit's 'em perfectly in stride.

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think if we had Gabbert, Mallett, Newton, or
> Luck, Marshall would explode into his old form.


Marshall's per game stats this season are basically exactly the same as they have been in Denver, about 6.5 catches per game, and around 12 yards per catch. What we saw this season is Marshall's form. To expect anything more from him is expecting him to take his peformance to new levels. He is a possession receiver, not a big play guy. He never has been a big play guy, and he never will be.

I'm sure people will point to the TDs being down. That is true. But, we don't do well throwing TDs to our WR. And this has been true for the entire Dan Henning era, including with Chad Pennington at QB. In 2008, Ted Ginn and Greg Camarillo tied for the team lead among WR with 2 TD each. And our WR combined for a total of 5 TD catches. In 2009, Hartline led the team with 3 TD, and our WR combined for 6 TD catches. 2010 has been the most prolific year for WR TD catches, with Bess having 4, and the WR combining for 9.

And it's not like Marshall was a prolific TD scorer in Denver. He had 23 in 3 seasons. That's not many when you consider he had over 300 catches.

And Marshall has been hit in stride a lot. And yet, his pet move is to stop, and try to change direction. And he falls down almost every time he does this.

I didn't see Marshall play that much because he was in Denver, but his reputation for making plays seems to have fallen a bit short with the Dolphins. In previous posts I commented that Henne seldom hit anyone in stride. It was more like a pitcher throwing to his catcher. So, I kind of agree that his stop/catch/and try to run is partially due to not having a ball leading him enough to follow throw fluidly. We'll need to watch this catching action next season, and see if there's a noticeable difference with whomever becomes our QB.

Phinjim Wrote: If I had to split up the problem in the pass game I would do as such:

1. 60% Dan Henning - Scheme and execution, play action, effective routes etc

2. 35% QB - Henne, getting the ball to the right place, play action fake execution, accuracy

3. 5% WR play getting separation & catching the ball, yds after catch



Nah. It's like 95% Henne and 5% Animal Crackers.

The quarterback can't catch the ball for the receivers, all he can do is hit them in the hands with it.

When Chad Henne played last year, he took nothing off the ball and although the balls hit the receivers in the hands, the receivers could not catch those hot balls and let them bounce off of their hands.

He got criticism for having a "lack of touch." So, he tried this year to become something he is not. He tried to soften his throw. Maybe, that's a legitimate criticism that he under compensates or over compensates when he tries to soften his throw.

Nonetheless, even if you criticize him for that, you must, by the same token, come to one realization. That realization is that these same receivers would NOT be able to catch Dan Marino who threw an even faster ball than Henne. But Mark Duper and Mark Clayton did not go around whining "the ball is coming too fast."

Now, I say if we can get Blaine Gabbert, let's get him. He can do both. Throw the zipper when its needed and throw with touch.

But he's gonna need a different corps of receivers with the exception of Marshall. Marshall does generally catch everything that is not knocked away from him by defenders. The problem is that he is always blanketed. Bess is also able to catch and that is why he generally is making the most receptions. Hartline (Ha!), he was the worse at letting the ball bounce off his hands.

But Stinky, your rationality seems to leave you when you talk about Henne. Most of your other analyses are pretty okay. What's up?

BigNastyFish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Phinjim Wrote: If I had to split up the problem in
> the pass game I would do as such:
>
> 1. 60% Dan Henning - Scheme and execution, play
> action, effective routes etc
>
> 2. 35% QB - Henne, getting the ball to the right
> place, play action fake execution, accuracy
>
> 3. 5% WR play getting separation & catching the
> ball, yds after catch
>
>
>
> Nah. It's like 95% Henne and 5% Animal Crackers.


I think you're just being overly dramatic for the sake of a funny, but please tell me you don't seriously believe that Henning is a problem? PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS SANE IN THIS WORLD!!!

Let’s put it this way, we’ve ran a bunch of OC’s out of town and somehow they wind up being relatively successful elsewhere – and “elsewhere” is always a place where there’s a QB.

Do you know the list?

Cam Cameron (looking pretty good with Flacco)
Mike Mularkey (looking pretty good with Ryan)
Chan Gailey (things are looking up with Fitzpatrick)

Henning is already gone. But he’s more scapegoat than deserved IMO. And don’t lose sight of the fact Chad P has been effectively on the coaching staff and how’s that working out for Mr. Henne?

So before you blame Henning for this fiasco of an offense, keep in mind it’s the QB in the NFL who’s like 75% of the “motor.” Simply put, there’s no coach on the planet that can turn junk into gold. And that’s what we have at QB, pure junk.

There’s another point in this that seems rather obvious to me. Dan Henning has a proven NFL background, that’s 100% fact. Henne has proven ZERO. So guess what, the overwhelming odds say the “problem” is Henne more than Henning.

But yes. Henning is too old and frankly no longer interested in coaching. The regime brought him in here to develop the QB as he’d done with Pennington etc. The plan has failed. I say it’s failed because Henne is incapable of executing at an NFL level.

dolfanmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB Wrote:
> > But he's gonna need a different corps of
> receivers
> > with the exception of Marshall. Marshall does
> > generally catch everything that is not knocked
> > away from him by defenders. The problem is
> that
> > he is always blanketed. Bess is also able to
> > catch and that is why he generally is making
> the
> > most receptions. Hartline (Ha!), he was the
> worse
> > at letting the ball bounce off his hands.
>
> Actually, Marshall is 3rd in the league with 11
> dropped passes. He was 9th in the league in
> dropped passes in 2009, and 2nd in the league in
> dropped passes in 2008. Dropped passes are clearly
> part of his game.
>
> Hartline only had 3 drops all season, with both
> coming in the first 2 games of the season.
>
> Marshall only has 9 broken tackles in 2010. In
> 2009, he had 14. In 2008, he had 21. Hopefully,
> this is just a fluke, and not a trend.
>
> Last week, Marshall himself admitted that he is
> not getting as much separation this year as he has
> in the past.
>
> "it seems like every time I catch a ball it’s
> two or three guys that’s jumping on me at once,
> so. It’s not a lot of separation there and it
> could be myself. (You know) not just moving the
> defense or manipulating the defense, so. I guess
> at the end of the season I’ll have to take my
> film and see if I’m missing something.”

This is what I like about Marshall. Always looking to be critical of himself and improve.

Now ChryenB, what games are you watching? You have criticized Hartline in the past for dropping passes. I don't see this at all and it looks like the stats prove you wrong.

You know, I'm not a stats geek. But every crucial pass where Marshall was relatively uncovered, he caught it.

And Hartline, HOW MANY GAMES DID HE PLAY BEFORE HE GOT INJURED?

YOu have to figure that in to make the analysis valid.

But again, every pass I saw thrown to Hartline when he was relatively uncovered, he dropped.

And Hartline dropped crucial passes in his rookie year also.

Hartline is not the problem.

Most around here think the kid is a player. And he’s got a bright future. Blaming him for the lack of offensive production is essentially a smoke screen. Did he drop some balls? Of course. Could he improve his game? Of course. But he’s also made a number of plays in his time here and there’s no way legitimately to blame him for our core problem.

As far as the coaching goes, in EVERY SPORT talent is what wins; talent on the court or on the field. Now when teams are relatively evenly matched, strategy and tactics can make the difference. But no coach can overcome a significant lack of player talent game in and game out.

You want to win horse races you’ve gotta have the horses. In the NFL the horsepower starts with your QB. And the teams that have inferior QB play are consistently at the bottom half of the league. That’s just an irrefutable fact of the NFL game.

Cheryl sweetie, it’s time to come home from planet Barbie.

BigNastyFish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hartline is not the problem.
>
> Most around here think the kid is a player. And
> he’s got a bright future. Blaming him for the
> lack of offensive production is essentially a
> smoke screen. Did he drop some balls? Of course.
> Could he improve his game? Of course. But he’s
> also made a number of plays in his time here and
> there’s no way legitimately to blame him for our
> core problem.
>
> As far as the coaching goes, in EVERY SPORT talent
> is what wins; talent on the court or on the field.
> Now when teams are relatively evenly matched,
> strategy and tactics can make the difference. But
> no coach can overcome a significant lack of player
> talent game in and game out.
>
> You want to win horse races you’ve gotta have
> the horses. In the NFL the horsepower starts with
> your QB. And the teams that have inferior QB play
> are consistently at the bottom half of the league.
> That’s just an irrefutable fact of the NFL
> game.
>

RESPONSE: The above is arguable.

> Cheryl sweetie, it’s time to come home from
> planet Barbie.
>
>

RESPONSE: You just can't help yourself. You probably have never seen a picture of me. I don't swing your way. As much as you want me to. But as Seinfeld says, 'NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT.'

My instincts were right in not joining facebook so you could "friend" me. LOL!

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know, I'm not a stats geek. But every crucial
> pass where Marshall was relatively uncovered, he
> caught it.
>
> And Hartline, HOW MANY GAMES DID HE PLAY BEFORE HE
> GOT INJURED?
>
> YOu have to figure that in to make the analysis
> valid.
>
> But again, every pass I saw thrown to Hartline
> when he was relatively uncovered, he dropped.
>
> And Hartline dropped crucial passes in his rookie
> year also.

He's been out for 2 games and he has dropped 3 passes. He has also made several big plays for us.

Touché Cheryl.

Anything is arguable, and I believe you prove that very well.

If the “argument” is credible and/or reasonable is another matter.

On the positive side, you are obviously starting to sing a slightly different song about Henne and the draft etc. That’s good. Recovery is always rooted in getting past the denial stage first.

Now that you’re doing that, you can move forward in recovering from your Henne hernia. I mean carrying that awful load around is bound to pop some capillaries at least, right?

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You know, I'm not a stats geek. But every crucial
> pass where Marshall was relatively uncovered, he
> caught it.
>

You mean like the wide open 3rd and 5 conversion on Sunday when the ball hit him right in the hands? He's had similar, critical drops all season.

Well, Stinkyfish, the fact still remains that even if we bring Brady or Manning over, we still will not get anywhere with this sucky team.

The point being, that maybe I have been overly supportive of Henne but maybe you are overly critical in seeing him in a manner that would suggest that if he were replaced, we'd be SuperBowl bound.

And, oh, with the "Cheryl" you keep wishing I was a woman, Lesbo. Your refusal to declare your gender in response to another thread has convinced me you are female. And.....Henne is your type of MAN.

Ouch. That hurts.

Stop it you sponge bob smarty pants!

And why do you think the team is sucky?

I mean really Cheryl, your attitude is a tad too defeated and negative.

Like I said, come back from planet Barbie and have some hot coco and prunes.

K?

I'm just LOL and hope the humor is obviuos...

I don't think Cheryl is being serious either, right?

But I'll stop.

Sorry.

>>> backing away from the keybord with a sad face...

Chyren is ancient French for Henry. B is the nickname for my first name.

There is no L in there.

I'll stop too with the Stinky and the comments on the sexual allusions that BNF makes since he states that he will stop making those allusions.

Personally? I think you guys are two faces of the same coin. 1 guy with multiple personalities, because there's no chance that this board has two separate people that are THAT crazy.

Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Chyren is ancient French for Henry. B is the
> > nickname for my first name.
> >
> > There is no L in there.
> >
> > I'll stop too with the Stinky and the comments
> on
> > the sexual allusions that BNF makes since he
> > states that he will stop making those
> allusions.
>
>
> Thanks, to both of you.

I'll say this, I'm so sorry Phinsfan2. You have to play parent to all of us unruly posters day in and day out and all you get for doing it is an I'm with stupid --> T-shirt!