I agree with everything except trading Marshall. He's the most talented WR Miami has EVER had. I wouldn't dump him after, only, a few games. What we need is a new OC. With some more effective offensive formations and routes Marshall would be more productive. Once he's put in positions that are easier for him, his confidence will increase and the bad attitude will dissipate. Changing the OC in itself should help, as a new personality at coach will allow Marshall to start fresh.

He hasn't gotten to the point of lockerroom cancer. A few bonehead plays on the field isn't going to ruin his place on the team. Brian Cox was a bonehead too, but the players liked him and he did some good things for us.

You could be right Victor, but he has a history of on and off field problems. He produced huge numbers in Denver and still managed to be disruptive.

One more comment about winning: we sometimes forget that the NFL is first and foremost a business. Winning equals money. 3-13 seasons or 5-11 or 6-10 seasons do not lead to a whole lot of season ticket sales, sponsors, merchandise sales etc. Winning does.

Good post Northeast. This Marshall thing is no big thing. He was always a player and good in the locker room in Denver. His problem with the team was contract and the fact that he flat wanted out of Denver. He lost a close friend in a shooting and that was the last straw for him.
Marshall pulls some stupid things at times (penalties) but he is a team player.
I agree that a new OC will help our team and Marshall.
Again, good post.

My identical twin brother is a Steeler's fan, so I see alot of their games. As I have posted here recently, I admire the Steeler's methods and results.

I think that most dolfans do not remember what a truely dominating defense means. Couple that with a very good QB and run game and you are rolling.

Football games are won and lost in the trenches. The football godz will never let that change. The OL & DL are (should be) the top priority. This is a "Hollywood" league so yes the QB position is the most important. That has to be answered as well.

The way the Steelers do it - through the draft, is the way.

Our Dolphins are going places. They are building the foundation, but the OL and DL must remain priorities in the draft. I really would like to see the front 7 of the defense be the focus next April.

Phinsfan, I think you completely missed the point of the post which is that we should not be hoping to lose. Winning is where it is and 6-5 record ain't that bad.
The rest is to support his argument. His point is well made as is yours to some extent.
I know you think that a franchise QB is a must, but look at the teams those QBs are playing on.

Payton Manning is a good example. What has happened to him this season? Team is not the same and as a result neither is he.

As far as draft order goes, it's still a crap shoot.

What our team needs IMO is an improved OL, a running back, an inside line backer and anything else to improve the D. Seems like a lot but we are not that far off from competing for the division title.

With a much improved OL the running game will come back and the passing game will continue to improve as Henne gains experience.

Oh BTW, lets get rid of Henning first.

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with everything except trading Marshall.
> He's the most talented WR Miami has EVER had.

I have to conclude that you never saw Paul Warfield play. There is no one even close to Warfield in Miami history. He played in an era when passing stats were much different, and he played for two teams that liked to run the ball a lot. But, in terms of talent, no one can touch Warfield. He had it all, size, speed, incredible moves, and hands. This is a guy who averaged better than 20 yards a catch for his career, and averaged a TD every 5 catches. He was Jerry Rice before Jerry Rice.

And I wouldn't take Marshall over Mark Clayton, either. If he and Duper played today, with today's rules around lack of contact? They'd put up insane numbers. And all of these guys, Warfield, Clayton, Duper, and Nat Moore, none of them would commit penalties on purpose just because they were unhappy.

Drafting in the top 5 leads often leads to years of drafting in the top 5. Lions, 49ers, Rams are all recent examples. The Rams are a team on the rise with a good young QB, but they have picked in the top 5 of the draft for 3 straight years. And even now, they appear to be a few years away from contention.

Here is another interesting list. How many top 5 picks have won a SB?
1995 - 0 of the 5 have won a SB
1996 - 1
1997 - 2
1998 - 1
1999 - 0
2000 - 1
2001 - 0
2002 - 0
2003 - 0
2004 - 1
2005 - 0
2006 - 1
2007 - 0
2008 - 0
2009 - 0

1996 to 1998 had some hits in the top 5 (4 out of 15 have won a S. Beyond that, it is small percentage that end up winning a SB. Of all of these guys, Peyton Manning is really the only guy that threw a team on his back and won. The others are good players, but they played on a roster full of good players. That is my point - we don't need to finish in the bottom 5 to get the one star player who will take us to a SB victory. We need to keep building a team full of good players to get to a SB victory. Losing won't help us do that.

I hope we trade down a couple picks into the early to mid twenties and pick up a couple 2nd and a third round pick.


Best case scenario is we are at about 15 and Jake Locker or Ryan Mallet falls to us and somebody is willing to give up a 2nd in the 2011 and a 1st in 2012.

Pull a page right out of the gaytriots draft day play book.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/01/2010 06:51AM by Aqua&Orange.

I hope we're picking #32 :-)

Phinfan, I glad that the GMs around the league don't have your attitude about losing. If they did, then we would be watching a lousy losing bunch of bottom crawlers. The only teams competing would be the top 6. What a terrible thing that would be.

Again, sports are about winning period. You worry about the draft after the season is over.

We as fans always speculate about next year. Coaches and players worry about next weeks game and how to win it. And I'm thankful for that.

> Gee, thanks. Except that you missed my point. Perhaps it was buried in one of the other threads on this subject where I said I wasn't suggesting that we tank it but that there's no arguing that we'd be better off being 5-11 than 10-6 in the long run.

Why is that? A 10-6 team would, presumably, be closer to being a championship contender, so, a 10-6 team might not need any more of those high draft choices/higher salaries.


> I'd daresay that just about every GM in the league shares that opinion, especially if they think they are close to being a legit contender.

Not necessarily, higher draft picks can stress a salary cap.



> And if you think there are teams that don't fold up shop after they are eliminated from playoff contention, then you are kidding yourself.

But you believe the Dolphins should “fold up shop” now. Because you believe that the Dolphins can’t win the SB. You’ve said as much.

So which is it, should the Dolphins lie down now, or try to win the SB?


> it's not a widespread thing because leadership in the NFL is compartmentalized, but it does happen. It just hard for the GM to make it happen when he has a coach that is judged on day to day results running that side of the shop.

What would losing purposefully say about the character of a player or an executive?
What would losing purposefully say about the character of a team/organization?
Is character an important component to consider in building successful teams/organizations?
Do successful teams/organizations win SBs?



> If you are a GM and you only start worrying about the draft once the season is over you are a HORRIBLE GM.

If a GM attempts to tank a season for draft choice positioning, that GM would be an idiot.



> Very true. Coaches and players worry about next weeks game. They are focused on the short term. GM's aren't. They are focused on the long term; on cap ramification, scouting up coming FA's and the draft.

> Like me, they understand that once the season is over and the noise has faded that they'd be better off next year if they are picking 10th instead of 20th in the draft. And like me, that doesn't keep them from rooting for their team to win on every given Sunday.

How do you know that the Dolphins would be better off picking at 10 in the next years draft rather than at 20?

Why would you root for a team that you believe can’t win the title?


> Reality is what it is. It's better to pick 10th than 20th and 5 years from now there will be no difference between having finished 10-6 or 6-10 in 2010, EXCEPT for the fact that picking 10th could mean that you have Haloti Ngata at DT instead of Jason Allen at DB or Ben Roethlisberger at QB instead of Vernon Carey at RT.

Why not just argue that it’d be better for the Dolphins to pick first in the draft every year? I mean, after all, according to you, it would.



> I get it. I get the fact that its a good thing when my team competes hard every week. I'm not asking anyone to stop doing that.

> What I find baffling is the argument that somehow its better for the long term prospects of this franchise to go 10-6 and pick 20th versus going 6-10 and picking 10th.

> But to each their own I suppose. That is what makes this an interesting talking point.


In reality, organizations win championships, and one of the first things an organization set upon winning a championship must do, is set standards of performance and behavior.

Setting standards of performance and behavior cements the foundation that establishes a standard of play.

A GM that espouses the virtue of tanking a season is not committed to excellence, is not positive, is not prepared, is not accountable, is not a leader, and is not ethical.

A GM that espouses the virtue of tanking a season is no one I’d want running the Dolphins.

seadevil Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Gee, thanks. Except that you missed my point.
> Perhaps it was buried in one of the other threads
> on this subject where I said I wasn't suggesting
> that we tank it but that there's no arguing that
> we'd be better off being 5-11 than 10-6 in the
> long run.
>
> Why is that? A 10-6 team would, presumably, be
> closer to being a championship contender, so, a
> 10-6 team might not need any more of those high
> draft choices/higher salaries.
>
>
> > I'd daresay that just about every GM in the
> league shares that opinion, especially if they
> think they are close to being a legit contender.
>
> Not necessarily, higher draft picks can stress a
> salary cap.
>


...And higher draft picks are no guarantee of any higher level of success in future years. Higher draft picks can result in years of higher draft picks. Think about it - if we were to end up 5-11 this year, what would be hoping for next year? We would obviously have lots of holes to fill. Would we be shooting for 6-10 in 2011? 7-9? No thanks. I'll root for 10-6 and know that we only have a few holes to fill.

seadevil, amen!

The question to me is not rather a team would prefer to pick 5th, 10th, 15th or 20th? Of course you would expect to have a higher hit rate when you pick higher in the draft. However, if you are picking higher than you also have to realize that your team has further to go in order to be competitive. A 5 win team is usually years from winning a SB. A 10 win team may only be 1 year away.

I don't think it is a "whatever happens, happens" approach. I think building a SB winner requires a series of steps. I think we have made enough positive steps that taking a step back this year is not required.

Curious - if you like Henne at QB, what position would you want to address with a top 10 pick?

i think the one thing that all those that blindly subscribe to the whole super bowl or best draft position theory is the confidence a 10-6 team carries into the following year versus that of a 6-10 team. A 10-6 team comes back hungry feeling like they are a playoff team..a 6-10 team does not come into the following season with the same level of expectations.

IMO finishing strong is more important than a slight increase in draft order. I can see if you are truly in the bottom tier and there is a peyton manning waiting in hte draft but outside of that the confidence and experience winning games late in the season. As ugly as our exit was a few years ago in the first round i think winnign the division and getting into the playoffs outweighs any POTENTIAL better draft choice.

I agree. Also, good players want to play for good teams. So winning can help retain good players that want to win. It can also help attract new players. If you are a star FA that gets a similar offer from 2 teams, do you go to the 6-10 team or the 10-6 team? Obviously, there are lots of factors to consider, but that has to be one of them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2010 08:39AM by Northeast Fin Fan.