Phinsfan, without re posting I can say that in the Shula years the draft position had nothing to do with not winning a SB with Marino. It had to do with that damned DC whose name starts with an O.
That DC couldn't stop my Grandmother. He flat out sucked.
Now why Shula did not replace him is just beyond me.
Maybe someone knows something I don't, but I think Shula was relying on his assistants way more in his later years. Just my opinion.

This proff positive that it takes a complete team to win a SB not just a great QB.

I think if we were to finish 6-10 this year after the history of this team over the past 10 years, it would have a definite impact on how we are viewed by free agents we may want to sign. Just imagine a 6-10 finish and the ensuing discussions about whether or not Miami has to start over yet again with a new GM and coach. Yuck. Who would want to come here?

Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> montequi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One thing higher draft picks guarantee: Higher
> > salaries for your rookies.
> >
> > That may explain why some teams tend to fall
> into
> > a cycle of always having high picks. When
> > high-priced rookies bust, you're stuck with the
> > salary and that limits who else you can sign to
> > make you better.
>
>
> So what?
>
> That only matters if you pick in the top 5 and
> make a BAD pick or multiple bad picks. For
> example, Jake Long is the highest paid O-lineman
> in the league (and was before he ever took a
> snap). Fortunately for us he's also the best LT
> in the league. There isn't a team in the league
> that couldn't fit the 10th pick under their cap
> EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Its no more than a good, not
> great FA would cost.
>
So, what if your #9 pick is outplayed by an undrafted FA (Ginn -vs- Bess)? Do you not think salary was a reason we traded Ginn and cut Jason Allen? You don't think there's any financial impact?

Also, teams often feel pressured to keep, and play, their 1st rounders, which may force them to cut a better but lower-drafted (or undrafted) player.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2010 09:14AM by montequi.

"Further evidence that sometimes having a bad year or two is a GOOD thing in the long run."

That's speculation really. Speculating that things would have gone much better for the Phins and Shula later if they started out much worse earlier in the Olivadotti tenure. There's not really any way to provide evidence to support that.

Edit - I am not defending Olivadotti. He was real bad. But one horrible year would not guarantee him leaving or things getting better. Years and years of being in the bottom 1/2 or bottom 1/3 of defenses didn't force Shula to fire him (Being 4th in 1990 was an aberration. We were right back to 24th the next year), I am not sure that a terrible record would have.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2010 10:42AM by Northeast Fin Fan.

Phinsfan2:
If Jason Allen wasn't cut because of his salary, then please explain why he was cut. He was our best player on special teams.

As for Ginn, he was one of the best kick returners in the league. The fact that he was grossly overpaid to do that job is EXACTLY why he was traded.

Too bad MikeO isn't around. He'd see it my way. Just follow the money dude. If you don't think Ross feels it in his pocket book when a high-paid guy doesn't perform, then you're missing the boat.

Phinsfan2 Wrote:

> Further evidence that the only person in an
> organization as important or more important than
> your QB is the guy making the calls on draft day.


There's a lot of truth to that. And it's true whether you pick 1st or 31st.

"What has been said is that in the NFL of the salary cap era you need an elite level QB to compete for title on a year in and year out basis. That is just a fact."

And that elite QB starts with a great OL, Running game, and a great defence that can stop the bleeding when it matters most. In short, a great team.
Payton Manning is a perfect example. Where has he been this year? Pretty average with that crappy team around him.
On the other hand, Brady looks as good as ever with that GREAT OL and running game. He has all kinds of time.

What my point is, that "elite" QB is made by playing with a great team. Marino played with a great OL. He also was one of the best ever. Very unusual player. Maybe only about 5 in history have been his equal. Montana, Manning, maybe Brady, maybe Elway in the more recent years. But the ones that have won or played in the SB also had that complete team with them.

So, is drafting high what got them there? For some yes and others it's acquiring players in every way possible.

Of coarse every team wants to draft high in the order, but drafting right is more important. See Oakland. Think we have wasted draft choices...?

Look this discussion has really gone far enough. We can agree on most things. You think an Elite QB is the first thing a team needs and I think a great OL is a must. That's fine.
Where I disagree is that I would much rather see 10-6 than 6-10 no matter where we draft.

As far as 2011 goes, first we need a center. Then we need the best athlete on Defense we can get. Rest hopefully from FA. My opinion.

Go Phins and kick hell out of the Browns.

Drafting in the top 10 is not the same as finishing in the bottom 10. The Pats drafted Mayo at #10 the year after going 16-0. If you are able to work the draft like the Pats do, and get multiple first round picks at will, then drafting in the top 10 is great. If you have to really stink as a team to draft in the top 10 it is not so great.

The Ravens are an enigma. They have the reputation of being a great team every year, but they have had some real stinker years in the 2000's.

Leon In Denver Wrote:
> Look this discussion has really gone far enough.

I agree with this also. A lot of interesting views on this subject.

Now I gotta get some work done.

NFF thanks for the free agent comment meant to mention that.look at the damn jets,,alot of their sucess comes from last years team imo..both in FA aquistions and overall team attitude

Phinsfan2, the blue text is really annoying.

Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> montequi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Phinsfan2:
> > If Jason Allen wasn't cut because of his
> salary,
> > then please explain why he was cut. He was our
> > best player on special teams.
>
> C'mon. Am I the only one paying attention to
> what goes on here?
>
> Allen was cut becasue 1) He was in the last year
> of his deal so there were was no guaranteed money
> next year to worry about. 2) we had gys in the
> roster that could fill his roll on special teams
> and 3) we had a chance to sign a CB that could
> actually cover someone in Al Harris. Frankly, it
> was a no-brainer.
>
> He was cut because he wasn't irreplacebale at the
> one thing he did well and we needed his roster
> spot to add a starting caliber CB. options.
>
No Brainer?? This guy has had a bunch of INTs this year. He was also our best special teamer (and we ALL know we've needed all the help we could get on special teams this year). Sure, no one is irreplaceable, but who can argue we wouldn't be a better team if we would have kept Allen instead of Ness?

Name ONE thing Ness has over Allen? All I can think of is he makes less money!

Oh, and your #1 point about guaranteed money just proves my point. We had been saddled with his salary for years. He wasn't cut because he would cost us money one way or another. Wouldn't we have been better off if he would have been drafted lower and made less money?? THINK man, THINK!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2010 05:11AM by montequi.

ghotirule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NEFF - Great Post!
>
>
> Losing does not lead to winning.
>
> PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION.


Thanks ghoti.

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Go Phins!


RESPONSE: That'll work.

If we land 2 of Mark Ingram, Lamichael James, Mikel Leshoure, Demarco Murray, and Alan Bradford this would be a huge upgrade with youth

But without an O-line, it doesnt matter who we have.

We could have Jim Brown, but with the offensive line we have now and the system run by Henning. We would still suck.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"