AMEN BROTHER!!!!

MikeO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Marino bashing on a Dolphins site.
>
> Unbelieveable!!!!!!!!


MikeO I must admit I am dissapointed. I expected a better defense of your point.



eesti can we say Check Mate!

Marino bashing??????

If I were to say that Dan Marino's season TD record was broken by a low down, stinking Patriot, would that be Marino bashing?

If I were to say that Marino's all time yardage and TD record was broken by a filthy, backstabbing, former-Jet, would that be Marino bashing?

It's just stating the facts.

Check mate...and Amen!

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

my point is crystal clear.

Zach and JT aren't hall of fame players. Marino is. Marino carried us to big games. Zach and JT never did. Zach and JT weren't that good. They were good players on bad teams. They were never great or superstar players.

If you can't see that or fail to ignore facts Im not gonna beat you over the head. And Im not gonna argue in circles over this.

And to say Marino brought us to 3 AFC Championship games and lost 2 and lost the super bowl so he underachieved......yes thats Marino bashing. That is stating a fact but to hold that agaisnt him when the guy carried a franchise for damn near 20 years and is one of the Top 5 QB's to ever play the position. Come on.

Some of you people live in a fantasy world or are locked inside a bubble and fail to look at the big picture.

MikeO, you are just plane wrong. How many probowls did the play in?

I think you are only as good as your leaders or leadership. JT was a great HOF player but not a great Leader. Marino and SHula were far superior leaders then any that have come through this franchise since. They did things on the Football field that are why I have a love affair with NFL football. SOrry but JT and Zach with their coaches didn't do that for me. Zach should go down as one of the greatest Dolphins of all time. Zach is someone you would want your kids to emmulate, JT probably not. But a guy like John Offerdahl deserves the same respect you should give Zach..... Marino, SHula, Offerdahl, Zach, all belong in the Dolphins ring of fame. JT not so sure and it certainly has nothing to do with his play.
But I felt the same way about ALonzo Morning after he left the HEat sick, got paid all of his contract even though he didnt play, burried the heat cap wise for a few years. Then when he decided to come back and play again, he didn't honor what the Heat had done for him and signed a big money deal with the NETS. Irating Heat fans for a while. And then he came back to the Heat team. The organization was worried he might be booed his first night back, however he signed for the league veterans minimum and played lights out, looking better then Shaq at times and his jersey deserved to be put in those Heat rafters last night. So JT could redeem himself, lets see if he takes a page out of the Alonzo Mourning PR play book or becomes a cheatriot.

ps- Everybody knows that the problem with The Marino Era, was a so called defense run by a guy named TOm Olivadotti, nothing to do with Marino. They guy who invented how to lose a game through his "Prevent Defense". Prevent alright, prevented us from winning a few Super Bowls!!! Amen AMen



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2009 09:53AM by Crowder52.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But I felt the same way about ALonzo Morning
> after he left the HEat sick, got paid all of his
> contract even though he didnt play, burried the
> heat cap wise for a few years. Then when he
> decided to come back and play again, he didn't
> honor what the Heat had done for him and signed a
> big money deal with the NETS. Irating Heat fans
> for a while. And then he came back to the Heat
> team. The organization was worried he might be
> booed his first night back, however he signed for
> the league veterans minimum and played lights out,
> looking better then Shaq at times and his jersey
> deserved to be put in those Heat rafters last
> night. So JT could redeem himself, lets see if he
> takes a page out of the Alonzo Mourning PR play
> book or becomes a cheatriot.


Interesting analogy. Mourning was a one of the big reasons the Heat won their championship. In fact, I think he was more valuable than Shaq overall.

MikeO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> my point is crystal clear.


??? I am confused
>
> Zach and JT aren't hall of fame players. Marino
> is. Marino carried us to big games.

But did not win them!

Zach and JT
> never did. Zach and JT weren't that good.

What? Dude DirectTV is not that expensive spend some money and watch the games

They
> were good players on bad teams. They were never
> great or superstar players.
>
> If you can't see that or fail to ignore facts Im
> not gonna beat you over the head. And Im not gonna
> argue in circles over this.

Grow up. You have no point.

>
> And to say Marino brought us to 3 AFC Championship
> games and lost 2 and lost the super bowl so he
> underachieved......yes thats Marino bashing. That
> is stating a fact but to hold that agaisnt him
> when the guy carried a franchise for damn near 20
> years and is one of the Top 5 QB's to ever play
> the position. Come on.
>
An JT and ZT gave the team 10+.

> Some of you people live in a fantasy world or are
> locked inside a bubble and fail to look at the big
> picture.


Let me know when you come back to planet earth dude. This discussion is going nowhere. I think it is clear you are a JT and ZT hater and that is fine nobody is forced to like any one player but don't distort the facts about what they did. In todays day and age the fact that a player even stays with a team 5 years is amazing let alone 10.

Mike O has some valid points as in,
last time I checked Marino's leadership never lead to a 1-15 season....
Marino's worst year win loss wise was 6-10 in 1988, This being the only time in his enitre multidecade career that he did not lead the dolphins to a winning season. Impressive... IMO This alone should carry alot of weight in your discussion,

montequi Wrote:
---------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Interesting analogy. Mourning was a one of the
> big reasons the Heat won their championship. In
> fact, I think he was more valuable than Shaq
> overall.


That is very true, without him, defintely no Heat Championship that year

I'd like to see JT retire in Miami. If he comes back for a lower contract and with his tail between his legs, I can forgive and forget. He did put in some seriously quality years here in Miami, let's hope he can rise again for a couple more.

Now if he goes to the patsies, I hope he dies and burns in hell for eternity and I will personally pummel him with iceballs when he's in Foxboro.

Let's get past the first round of playoffs this year... oh, and dive at Tom's knees pleeez

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mike O has some valid points as in,
> last time I checked Marino's leadership never lead
> to a 1-15 season....
> Marino's worst year win loss wise was 6-10 in
> 1988, This being the only time in his enitre
> multidecade career that he did not lead the
> dolphins to a winning season. Impressive... IMO
> This alone should carry alot of weight in your
> discussion,

Apples and Oranges. All we are saying is that Zach and JT were great players. You can't compare a QB to a LB or DE for leadership. Bruce Smith was arguably the best DE of all time but he never LED his team to a SB. Same for Reggie White. He was a dominant defensive player but he wouldn't have a ring without Favre. QB's are the leaders of the team period. Ray Lewis was his teams leader but he had nothing to do with the offense. He was surrounded by top defensive talent and couldn't have done it without them.

If you think JT and Zach led us to a 1-15 record you are sadly mistaken. We went 6-10 in JT's MVP season. Was that his fault? NO. If not for him, we would have been a lot worse than 6-10.

The end who sometimes lines up at linebacker or inside had 62 tackles, 13½ sacks, 14 quarterback hurries, two interceptions -- both returned for TDs -- 11 passes defensed, 10 fumbles forced and two fumbles recovered. Yes, 10 fumbles forced, making Taylor a takeaway machine.

Patriots coach Bill Belichick, whose team faced both the Dolphins (going 1-1) and the Broncos (a loss), praised Taylor as the top guy.

"I can't imagine him not being the Defensive Player of the Year this year," he said. "There's nobody I've seen that has played anywhere near close to the level that he's at. He ruins a lot of games offensively for teams." -ESPN

The entire season (06) was a disaster...from a bad draft to bad coaching. Chambers was arrested, Fred Evans was arrested. Joey Porter was arrested.

But I guess that proves JT is responsible for the 10 losses and bad coaching had nothing to do with it.

Zach was injured for most of our 1-15 season but I guess he should have led from the training room with his brains scrambled.

Never mind the fact that our half of our team was put on IR including our STARTING QB and two RB's and our only WR was traded.

The 07 season was the perfect storm of destruction that featured even worse coaching than 06.

Give me a break.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Leon In Denver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MikeO, you are just plane wrong. How many probowls
> did the play in?


BRETT FARVE made the pro bowl this year. NUFF SAID!! It's a glorified high school election/popularity contest.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mike O has some valid points as in,
> last time I checked Marino's leadership never lead
> to a 1-15 season....
> Marino's worst year win loss wise was 6-10 in
> 1988, This being the only time in his enitre
> multidecade career that he did not lead the
> dolphins to a winning season. Impressive... IMO
> This alone should carry alot of weight in your
> discussion,


Not to mention if Zach and JT were so damn good, how come that "great defense" back in 2002 blew a 16 pt lead in the final 3 minutes at New England that cost us a Division Title and a playoff spot. Not to mention CHOKING the week before in Minnesota that could have clinched us a playoff spot. Or how about giving up 62 pts in a playoff game at Jax.

Want me to keep going??????????

MikeO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not to mention if Zach and JT were so damn good,
> how come that "great defense" back in 2002 blew a
> 16 pt lead in the final 3 minutes at New England
> that cost us a Division Title and a playoff spot.
> Not to mention CHOKING the week before in
> Minnesota that could have clinched us a playoff
> spot. Or how about giving up 62 pts in a playoff
> game at Jax.
>
> Want me to keep going??????????


Last I checked, there were 11 players on defense not just two.

What I remember about the offense in those days is that they had more 3 and outs than anyone is the league and the defense was on the field all day long and had to win the game for us as they ranked 4th in points allowed.

Besides we were talking about TWO great players not a great defense.

...and that 62 point game was with Dan Marino at QB for an offense that scored a whopping 7 points (Orande Gadsden TD).

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

--Zach and JT are NOT hall of fame players. Jason Taylor has an outside chance because of the number of sacks he has accumliated. But Zach has zero chance. Zach wasn't the best MLB of his era, Ray Lewis is/was.

--On the NE game. Sure, 11 guys were on the field. And the two highest paid players on the team played defense and were our "leaders" who once again came up short when it mattered. Not to mention in those days the 10 highest paid players on the team,......9 of them were on defense!!!!

Blame the offense all ya want, but Fiedler and the offense handed over leads LATE in both Minnesota and New England to our "great" defense with these "hall of fame" players/leaders and they blew both games!!

--Ignore Pro Bowls. Look at ALL PRO. Those aren't voted on by the on players and fans. Its a legit record of who was the VERY BEST at their position each season. And its a combination of AFC and NFC. So, only 1 center, 1 QB, 1 MLB, 2 DE's....yadda yadda. When it comes to ALL PRO, Zach and JT are left in the dust.

Zach and JT were ok players on bad teams the majority of their careers. Bottom line. Neither is going to the hall of fame.Neither is getting their number retired by the Fins. Heck, Im not even sure either gets int he Ring of Fame or whatever they call it at Dolphins Stadium. For the simple fact they won NOTHING with the Fins and were just OK players on bad teams at the end of the day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2009 09:06PM by MikeO.

Zach Thomas is a lock to be in the ring of fame. He is one of the greatest Dolphins of all-time.

JT's future will depend on if he goes to New England or not.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

From an article I read that contains more logical insight...from before the 07 season.

No one notices his incredible performances because a 150 tackle season is the "boring" norm. Finishing in the league's top five tacklers is the norm. Leading the Dolphins in tackles is the norm. Since he doesn't draw the attention to himself, those accomplishments are noticed by few. It's the old hypothetical question, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a noise? Well, if Zach Thomas quietly puts up over 1500 tackles in 11 seasons and few people take notice of it, is his greatness somehow diminished? (ZT has 1720 tackles)

Absolutely and unequivocally not.

In fact, it's an interesting exercise to compare Thomas to the last middle linebacker to be enshrined in the Hall of Fame - Bears MLB Mike Singletary. Singletary played from 1981-1992 in Chicago where he made 10 Pro Bowls and finished his career with 1488 tackles (885 solo), 51 passes defensed, and 7 interceptions. In comparison, Thomas, who has played in one less season than Singletary and has yet to retire, has recorded 1586 tackles (1195 solo), 63 passes defensed, and 17 interceptions while making 7 Pro Bowls. Judging by those statistics (and much of the Hall of Fame voting is based on statistical production) Thomas has played at a Hall of Fame level.

It's also interesting to compare Thomas to two current players who a majority of people would consider to be better players than Zach - Ray Lewis and Brian Urlacher.

Both Lewis and Thomas came into the league in 1996. According to Prisco, Lewis is in the "Welcome to Canton" category, meaning that whenever he retires he is guaranteed a spot in the Hall. And yet Thomas beats out Lewis in all the important MLB statistical categories - tackles (1586 to 1398), solo tackles (1195 to 1117), and forced fumbles (16 to 8). Additionally, Thomas has proven to be much more of a workhorse over his career, missing only 13 games due to injury. Lewis has missed 27 games over the same period - more than twice the amount of Thomas. The one difference between Lewis and Thomas? Lewis draws as much attention to himself as possible so that he is a household name. I guess that counts for something in Prisco's evaluation of Hall of Fame talent. Also, I realize that Lewis has won a Super Bowl, but the Hall of Fame is about individual achievements and rings should play little in the voters' choices.

Next we come to Brian Urlacher. It's tough to compare Thomas and Urlacher in terms of absolute statistics since Thomas has played in the NFL for four more seasons than Urlacher. But if we take the season averages of both players, we can make some conclusions. Again, in all of the important middle linebacker statistical categories, Thomas' season averages beat out Urlacher's - tackles (144 to 120), solo tackles (109 to 92), and forced fumbles (1.45 to 1.14). And wouldn't you know, Prisco has labeled Urlacher as a "needs more work." Yet even if Urlacher continues on at his current rate of production, he still won't approach the level of Thomas. And somehow, someway, Zach Thomas is the one out of all three of these players to be given no chance by Prisco at the Hall of Fame.

Thankfully, Pete Prisco (and Mike O) does not get a vote in the Hall of Fame selection process.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2009 04:40AM by eesti.

from another article...

The day Zach Thomas decides to hang it up will be a sad day in South Florida. This team's success depends heavily on Thomas' presence, as the defense is just not the same when number 54 isn't the man in the middle. When he missed time in the 2005 season, Thomas returned in a game in San Diego to take on the Chargers. Early on, a pass went over the middle to the best tight end in football, Antonio Gates. Gates had the ball tucked away in his gut and was going down for what appeared to be a simple 7 yard gain. The thing Gates neglected was that the man bringing him down was Zach Thomas. Thomas wrestled the ball away from Gates, taking it straight out of his hands for an interception. I know it's only one play, but it just shows that Miami is a different team when Zach is on the field. Zach Thomas is a Hall of Famer and if he is snubbed, the writers that get to vote will certainly hear it from plenty of the Dolphins' faithful who feel his snub would be intolerable.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

and another...

So that’s it. The Dolphins defense is no longer anchored by the seven time Pro-Bowler.

No more juggernaut-like plugs into the gaps of the defensive line preventing a first down. No more sideline to sideline pursuits of premier running backs. No more swan dives into the end zone after taking back a “pick 6.”

For 12 years, Zach Thomas led the Miami defense, and in his prime, anchored one of the NFL’s most fearsome units. While defense reigned supreme in South Florida, offense lacked in the Post-Marino era, and few players did more for the Dolphins, than Zach Thomas.

There have been many debates if Thomas ranks among the greats. Is he a Hall-of-Famer, or just a gritty, football player who had a nose for the ball? Well, I say it is certainly the former.

In the last 12 seasons, you would be hard pressed to find a better middle linebacker than Zach Thomas. If you could, you would be able to count them on one hand. And you wouldn’t even need all of those digits.

The only middle linebacker that shoots instantly out as a Hall of Fame player is Ray Lewis. There aren’t many decade long consistent forces at the position, better than Thomas.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Stats can say anything you want them to say. How many tackles behind the line of scrimmage does Zach have. Look up that number and compare it to Urlacher and Lewis.

And Tippett was a better player than JT, Im sorry. I have said from day 1 here that JT has a chance at the hall of fame. Im not buying that he is a hall of fame player. BUt if he plays a couple more years and racks up some more sacks he could compile numbers to get him in. Zach Im not buying.

Over the next 5-10 years the Hall of Fame is going to get really crowded with a lot of big names going in (emmitt, farve, carter, rice, strahan, deion...etc). I dont thinK Zach and JT are in that class. We will see.

I mean some of you guys are the same group who think Larry Keuchenberg is a hall of fame player. So I can't take you seriously. Anyone who puts on a Dolphins uniform and plays well you think belongs in the hall of fame. That kills your argument

HAHAHA.....too funny. Cant take him serious anymore.


He must be a youngster.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Tippett was better than JT? What?!?!?!?! What is your basis for saying that? Tippett had inferior stats across the board. JT had
more Pro Bowl appearances
more All Pro years
more sacks
more INTs
more fumbles
more TDs
more safeties

and they had the same number of SB wins.

It seems that you just want to knock JT down.

MikeO the more you talk the more I think you are not a phins fan. Maybe I am wrong but maybe I am not. Grab your crayons and helmet my man you've been schooled.............CHECK MATE!