THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Aqua&Orange Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > THE Truth Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Costas has a valid point about the name. It
> is
> > > offensive to native americans.
> >
> >
> > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
> > Not for me and my family. My Grandmother is
> 100%
> > Crow Indian. She had 8 kids (including my
> mother).
> > All 8 kids and my Grandma are die hard Skins
> > fans.
> >
> > I asked my Uncle (who is 50% Crow Indian) how
> he
> > would feel if the Redskins changed their name,
> he
> > said he would never watch another Skins game in
> > his life.
> >
> > The bottom line is, we live in a country with
> too
> > much Political Correctiness, and if something
> > doesnt tickle our fancy then it is offensive.
>
> Fair enough.
>
> I should have been more clear.
>
> It's offensive to many native Americans.

***************************************************

Maybe you should reword it to "It;s offensive to many native Americans" of THIS generation.

I think you put your hand on it Cap. My Malcolm X vs. Martin Luther King vs. Rap Brown mention above was meant to show that in all groups there is a division of opinion as to all things, even that relating to the group itself.

The difference is that in the ole Days they would say, "there is a split of opinion on this. This group says this and that group says that."

We are now getting to a point where all it takes is one person to be offended and that dictates that we must all do what we can so as not to offend what really amounts to one person or a subset of one group.

Forget America, there is no way you can run any nation of men and women on that principle.

LOL. So it will go from "Don't offend the group" to "don't do anything that might offend any person in the group regardless of how the rest of the group feels."

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Costas has a valid point about the name. It is
> > offensive to native americans.
> >
> > But this is america. Dan Snyder has the right
> to
> > be offensive.
> >
> > At the end of the day, if nobody buys their
> gear
> > then they will change the name. Until then,
> its
> > not likely to be changed.
>
> **************************************
>
> It's been the "Redskins" since the team was born
> and no one, until a year or two ago, had any
> problem with it.


Actually, it came up 20 years ago when colleges like St John's changed from Indian mascots and nicknames like "Redmen".

Many wondered why the Redskins were getting a pass at the time.


But things change Cap. 10 years ago nobody would have thought gay marriage would become acceptable.



>
> That's the problem with today's America...too
> politically correct. Majority could want one
> thing, but a minority complains and all of a
> sudden something has to be changed.


Its not about majority or minority, its about right and wrong.


The nickname is what it is. The great thing about living in a free market system is that the free market will correct this issue.

Either enough people will find it offensive and it will negatively impact Dan Snyder or they won't. He will act accordingly.

As I said before, this is America. You have the right to be offensive. And since the name itself doesn't infringe on anyone's rights or religion nobody is going to force them to change it. They will only do it if economic forces dictate that its the best thing for them to do.



>
> Not gonna throw my politics in here, but how long
> was it "Merry Christmas" and a few people had a
> problem with it, and now it's gone, along with "In
> God We Trust."


Its still "Merry Christmas" where I live...and "Happy Holidays."


>
> Give me back MY America.


There are many America's. Which one was yours?

There is an old South Park episode, one of my favorite. Where the kids are rehearsing to do their annual Christmas Pageant, and one by one people from the town and parents stepped forward, that they were offended by different symbols or traditions in the Pageant. At the end, the Pageant bends to all the demands of the offended. And the play was just a bunch of kids dressed as green blobs moving around aimlessly, with no point, as to not offend anybody. And then the town and parents all complained because the pageant sucked and had no point....

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Crowder52 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Yes but, the Seminole name was attempted to
> be
> > > changed under the same pre tense.. That
> Indians
> > > were offended by it... That we name our
> Sports
> > > teams after animals and such and there by
> > calling
> > > them a tribe name was comparing them to
> animals
> > or
> > > a nostalgic figure.. It almost got changed
> > under
> > > that reasoning... Then at the last minute,
> the
> > > Seminoles actually stood up and said it was
> > > nonsense we are honored not offended.. Go
> look
> > it
> > > up, how it all went down.
> > >
> > > Go ahead and name them the white skins,
> > wouldn't
> > > offend me in the slightest... But if we are
> > going
> > > to go overboard with political correctness..
> I
> > > think at the very least, the Buccanears,
> > Raiders,
> > > Patriots and Chiefs should all be changed as
> > > well.. Since it makes light of very important
> > > groups of people in American history and
> makes
> > > them a cartoon clown to be exploited by the
> > NFL..
> >
> > When did pirates become "an important group of
> > people in American history "?
> >
> > The chief nickname is more or less in the same
> > boat as the Seminole nickname. It's not an
> > insult. It's honoring an historical
> legacy....
> > To a degree.
> >
> > Redskins is just an insult.
>
> ******************************************
>
> Did you feel that way about 10 years ago?


Yup.

Even 20 years ago.

Prior to that I never really thought about it much since it didn't effect me.

But truth be told, I never really liked it when people I ran into used ANY derogatory or insulting nicknames about anyone so I'd probably have felt the same 30 years ago if anyone had brought it up.

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Aqua&Orange Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > THE Truth Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Costas has a valid point about the name.
> It
> > is
> > > > offensive to native americans.
> > >
> > >
> > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
> > > Not for me and my family. My Grandmother is
> > 100%
> > > Crow Indian. She had 8 kids (including my
> > mother).
> > > All 8 kids and my Grandma are die hard Skins
> > > fans.
> > >
> > > I asked my Uncle (who is 50% Crow Indian) how
> > he
> > > would feel if the Redskins changed their
> name,
> > he
> > > said he would never watch another Skins game
> in
> > > his life.
> > >
> > > The bottom line is, we live in a country with
> > too
> > > much Political Correctiness, and if something
> > > doesnt tickle our fancy then it is offensive.
> >
> > Fair enough.
> >
> > I should have been more clear.
> >
> > It's offensive to many native Americans.
>
> **************************************************
> *
>
> Maybe you should reword it to "It;s offensive to
> many native Americans" of THIS generation.


Does that make it any less offensive Cap?

Why is being offensive such a bad thing? Someone says something you don't like, how does your life change? How are you damaged that you need to sue? Its become such a B.S. argument.

Your offended? TOUGH. Others are not. Move on. Whats wrong with telling people to put big boy pants on and move on? To deal with it?

Blow me Bob. Save your rants for your time. Your on mine now.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

I don't think bob is disagreeing with you treasure

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

He means Costas.

LOL.. Someone else here named Bob? My apologies.

Surely aimed at Bob Costas , Douche. .

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

LOL. BOB IS A DOUCHE.

TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why is being offensive such a bad thing? Someone
> says something you don't like, how does your life
> change? How are you damaged that you need to sue?
> Its become such a B.S. argument.
>
> Your offended? TOUGH. Others are not. Move on.
> Whats wrong with telling people to put big boy
> pants on and move on? To deal with it?
>
> Blow me Bob. Save your rants for your time. Your
> on mine now.


Are you saying that you found Costas comments to be offensive?

Costas that is!!!!!!!!!!!

Washington Red Suns, Washington Red Necks, Washington Red Legs,
Washington Reds, nah.... Washington Redskins! Hope they do the sensible thing and keep the nickname. Redskins vs Cowboys is one of my favorite NFL match-ups, partly because of the names.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > >
> Are you saying that you found Costas comments to
> be offensive?



Actually I did. My 9 yr old was watching and asked me WTF he was talking about. Here is a kid that doesn't even know what racism is . Redskin is just a word , Now Bob placed all of this B.S. around it and created racism that I had to explain. All I'm saying is it does not belong during the halftime of Monday night Football. Not the place or the time. Save it for another platform that those that want to hear it can go. Its not the first time he went uber politico during the halftime segment either and I hope he gets told to stop. I hope they change the name to the Washington Midgets. Then he would have something to really whine about.......

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

i can picture bob costas singing:


We represent the Lollipop Guild
The Lollipop Guild, the Lollipop Guild.
And in the name of the Lollipop Guild
We wish to welcome you to Munchkin Land

That's funny Victor!

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> captkoi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > THE Truth Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Aqua&Orange Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > THE Truth Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > Costas has a valid point about the name.
> > It
> > > is
> > > > > offensive to native americans.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
> > > > Not for me and my family. My Grandmother is
> > > 100%
> > > > Crow Indian. She had 8 kids (including my
> > > mother).
> > > > All 8 kids and my Grandma are die hard
> Skins
> > > > fans.
> > > >
> > > > I asked my Uncle (who is 50% Crow Indian)
> how
> > > he
> > > > would feel if the Redskins changed their
> > name,
> > > he
> > > > said he would never watch another Skins
> game
> > in
> > > > his life.
> > > >
> > > > The bottom line is, we live in a country
> with
> > > too
> > > > much Political Correctiness, and if
> something
> > > > doesnt tickle our fancy then it is
> offensive.
> > >
> > > Fair enough.
> > >
> > > I should have been more clear.
> > >
> > > It's offensive to many native Americans.
> >
> >
> **************************************************
>
> > *
> >
> > Maybe you should reword it to "It;s offensive
> to
> > many native Americans" of THIS generation.
>
>
> Does that make it any less offensive Cap?

********************************************

If the term "Redskins" was being used in a derogatory way, I would agree with the protests and sign any petition to remove the name immediately, but that is not the case.

The point in my (above) post was why is the name "Redskins" not offensive in the past generations, but now, all of a sudden, is offensive?

I just don't understand how a "name" for a sports team can be offensive to anyone.

Our world (today) is waaaaay to sensitive!

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> ********************************************
>
> If the term "Redskins" was being used in a
> derogatory way, I would agree with the protests
> and sign any petition to remove the name
> immediately, but that is not the case.
>
> The point in my (above) post was why is the name
> "Redskins" not offensive in the past generations,
> but now, all of a sudden, is offensive?
>
> I just don't understand how a "name" for a sports
> team can be offensive to anyone.
>
> Our world (today) is waaaaay to sensitive!


I'm not going to argue whether its offensive or not. I'll just say its pretty clear why it could be offensive to a specific group of Americans. As I said before, it will ultimately become an economic issue and that will decide when and if its ever changed.



But if you are going to suggest its only offensive to this generation then lets take a look back at the world in which it was an acceptable term:

1932 USA:

The Nation was in the grip of the great depression.


Women had had the vote for all of 12 years.

Segregation was a way of life in the south and in our military.

No person of Native American decent had been elected to serve in the US congress..ever. And none would be for another 60 years

Of the 122M people in the US in 1930 88.7% were white and only 0.3% were American Indian. 9.7 % were black, but since the Civil Rights movement in the US was still 3 decades away, please tell me who exactly was going to have a voice to complain about that name being offensive?

In the 1930's "Redskins" wasn't an offensive term to most white Americans and since they were the ONLY voice in this country on issues like this it really didn't matter what anyone else thought, did it?

From a purely economic position, the NFL was still a regional sport being sold to local WHITE fans.


Its an entirely DIFFERENT world today. The NFL is selling its product GLOBALLY and in full color each and every day to 100M+ fans around the globe.

Suddenly, what non-white people think not only matters but has an impact on their business.

Add to that the fact that the nations population has basically tripled in the last 80 years while the white majority has dropped from 88.7% to 72%, non whites now have economic power and influence in this country that could only be imagined before 1970.

Its not that America is too sensitive today. Its that there are just more people today who know what its like be insulted because of their race, religion or color by an insensitive majority, and in today's world those people have a voice and many ways to express their views that simply didn't exist in 1932.


The world changes Cap. Always has, always will.

TRUTH--you make some good arguments so hats off to you.

If the Washington Redskins were coming into existence today, I'd bet that Redskins would not be a likely moniker.

The Redskins name however, is steeped in history and it's not likely to change any more than Coca-Cola would change it's name.

Victor, that IS funny and quite creative.
However, I think the focus of this thread has gotten off track.. I find it offensive that Costas uses his announcing of a football game as a soapbox for his political beliefs. This topic is more suited for a show -sports or otherwise- that is a clearly-stated opinion-based show -such as his own show, which is described in the show description as a sports-based opinion piece, similar to HBO's "Inside Sports with Bryant Gumbel". Neither of these belong on a game telecast.

Rick

Yeah, there are sports talk shows that can give air time to these controversies. The game is not the place.

Let's suppose that the controversy involved a recent arrest of a player on the team that has been released and is now playing. You might mention it in the pre game show. You also might mention it when he first touches the ball or plays but it would be ridiculous to mention it on every play.


Since the question involves the name of the whole team and not one or a group of players, either you say nothing or you talk about it all throughout the game which would be ridiculous.

Therefore, you say nothing.

colonel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TRUTH--you make some good arguments so hats off to
> you.
>
> If the Washington Redskins were coming into
> existence today, I'd bet that Redskins would not
> be a likely moniker.
>
> The Redskins name however, is steeped in history
> and it's not likely to change any more than
> Coca-Cola would change it's name.

If enough people keep buying the merchandise it won't change. But if enough people speak out about it so its in the public's mind, and their merchandise sales suffer because of it, then it will change.

The NFL doesn't do ANYTHING that doesn't make them more money.

If they figure out they can make more by changing the name, it will change.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> colonel Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TRUTH--you make some good arguments so hats off
> to
> > you.
> >
> > If the Washington Redskins were coming into
> > existence today, I'd bet that Redskins would
> not
> > be a likely moniker.
> >
> > The Redskins name however, is steeped in
> history
> > and it's not likely to change any more than
> > Coca-Cola would change it's name.
>
> If enough people keep buying the merchandise it
> won't change. But if enough people speak out
> about it so its in the public's mind, and their
> merchandise sales suffer because of it, then it
> will change.
>
> The NFL doesn't do ANYTHING that doesn't make them
> more money.
>
> If they figure out they can make more by changing
> the name, it will change.

***************************************************

I'm not going to delve into this any further except to say:

Colonel: Agreed. If Washington tried to name their team the "Redskins" today, it would not pass.

Truth: Agreed. If the Redskins and the NFL get hit hard enough in the wallet, yes, they will change it. But I highly doubt that will happen because the people who are complaining are in the minority and I highly doubt that many of them attend the games, anyway.