JC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > He was kicking indoors. Carpenter would have
> > had a very good chance to make that kick twice
> > indoors.
> >
>
>
> Not that it made a huge difference, but wasn't the
> retractable roof on this stadium'open' for this
> game?


Yes it was.

And yes, it didn't make a big difference...

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChrenB....Philbin could had destroyed sturgis
> confidence as well....
>
> Sturgis fieldgoal was 54 yards...
>
> Both of carpenter missed fieldgoal were less than
> that.
>
> Sturgis IMO will be way better than carpenter.


Actually, the difference was that Sturgis HAD to make the field goal and contrary to what he did with Carpenter, Philbin tried to get Sturgis as close as he could.

Now if that meant passing, so be it.

But Carpenter was in 47 yard field goal range and for three straight plays, Philbin passed the ball long basically saying "we got this field goal in the bag".

To me THAT'S FAR MORE PRESSURE than having the guy, Sturgis, in a situation in which if he makes it, he will be a hero and if not, no one will think twice about it.

He put Carpenter in the situation of "If you make it, no big deal, if you miss it, you are a goat." That's the exact opposite.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i don't think a coach asking a kicker to make a
> long FG should be viewed as destroying his
> confidence. It is their job to make FGs, long or
> short.


Berk, see my response to the quote by SamSam right above this post of yours. It's on page 2.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Philbin destroyed Carpenter's confidence? This
> year or last?
>
> How exactly? By asking him to win a few games
> with very makeable kicks last year or by bringing
> in a young kicker with a better leg to compete
> with him?
>
> You know what?? Forget I asked. I really don't
> want to know the "reasoning" behind that claim.


Here we go again, attacking from the shadows, like all cowards do. Again piggybacking on another poster's quote and of course, you don't want him to quote this reply.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I imagine they are referring to the jets game last
> year where, when we were on about the 35 yard line
> (52 yard FG) at the end of the game, RT threw 3
> long incomplete passes instead of trying to get
> closer in for the FG Carpenter ended up missing.

I think it was a 47 yarder at that point, berk



> To me that shows confidence in the kicker, and
> shouldn't destroy the kicker's confidence

OR it shows so much OVER confidence that it actually puts more pressure on someone than with a kick he is not expected to make.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If a kicker loses his confidence for any serious
> length of time because of a missed fg of any
> length then he never really had any confidence in
> the first place.

Your opinion instead of fact.
>
>
> But in that Jets game...Carpenter hit a 41 yard FG
> late in regulation to force OT.


I'm pretty sure you're wrong. My memory is that had he made the field goal we would have AVOIDED overtime and that the missed kick was in regulation. I am gonna check after entering this post.

>
> He missed a 48 yard FG in OT that cost us the
> game.
>
> but that OT drive wasn't pass, pass, pass FG at
> the end.
>
> It started with 2 runs for 8 yards and and a 6
> yard completion to fasano for the 1st. Then a 41
> yard completion to Hartline to the Jets 35.
>
> Followed by a 3 yard run, and deep incompletion on
> 2nd down and a 2 yard run on 3rd to set up the 48
> yard FG that he missed.


That ain't my memory either. My memory is as berk's that it was three passes and a field goal try.

It appears that it was overtime.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> samsam3738 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ChrenB....Philbin could had destroyed sturgis
> > confidence as well....
> >
> > Sturgis fieldgoal was 54 yards...
> >
> > Both of carpenter missed fieldgoal were less
> than
> > that.
> >
> > Sturgis IMO will be way better than carpenter.
>
>
> Actually, the difference was that Sturgis HAD to
> make the field goal and contrary to what he did
> with Carpenter, Philbin tried to get Sturgis as
> close as he could.
>


chren do you realize this is like you saying a 54 yard field goal is easier to make than a 48 yard fieldgoal?

it doesnt matter what the coaches tried to do...they put the player in a position to make a fieldgoal.

Carpenter missed a 48 yarder while sturgis made a 54 yarder....

Im sure the coaches tried to get carpenter to kicka more makeble fieldgoal...Its just that the plays just did not work out..And thats just part of the game.

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > samsam3738 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > ChrenB....Philbin could had destroyed sturgis
> > > confidence as well....
> > >
> > > Sturgis fieldgoal was 54 yards...
> > >
> > > Both of carpenter missed fieldgoal were less
> > than
> > > that.
> > >
> > > Sturgis IMO will be way better than
> carpenter.
> >
> >
> > Actually, the difference was that Sturgis HAD
> to
> > make the field goal and contrary to what he did
> > with Carpenter, Philbin tried to get Sturgis as
> > close as he could.
> >
>
>




> chren do you realize this is like you saying a 54
> yard field goal is easier to make than a 48 yard
> fieldgoal?
>


Not too mention the fact that its also just not true Sam.

Philbin did try to make it easier for Carpenter. He turned a difficult, 52/53 yard fg into a more makeable 47/48 yard FG by running twice. On top of that he even took one shot at the endzone on 2nd down to see if the Jets were selling out to stop the run at that point.

That's just good coaching.

Put your kicker in a better position to be successful AND taking a shot at winning without relying on a long kick.

Why the extra 5 yards for Carpenter on the two running plays and not two more shots at the endzone?

Because like nearly ALL NFL kickers he is significantly more accurate in the 40-49 yard range (75%) than he is in the 50+ range (52%).


Like I said, just good coaching.

i meant im sure philbin tried to make it easier than a 48 yarder.........it just didnt happen...

Part of thegame.

And another thing, if that pass play against the Jets had been 10 or 15 yards, I might have been more accepting thinking, "Well a first down would result in a 35 yard field goal attempt even if we never make another yard so even though they missed the pass, I understand their reasoning."

BUT A FRIGGIN' LONG BOMB????????? That's saying, "Hey, we got this game either way, our boy Carpenter CAN'T POSSIBLY MISS A 48 YARDER."

Now again, that is far more pressure than lining up to kick a 54 yarder that nobody really expects you to make.

It's the expectation that matters.

Statistically speaking, far more FGs are made in the 40-49 range than in the 50-59 range. That fact leads me to think that degree of difficulty is much more of a factor than expectation.

Chren another point is sturgis made a 54 yard field goal...and carpenter misses a much easier 48 yarder..

Sturgis is better than carpenter.

Chren dont say philbin took capenters confidence by making him kick a 48 yard field goal..Thats absurd.

Carpenter just sucks plain and simple he sucked last year thats why he was even let go by other teams.

SamSam, I STARTED with the premise, that means I started conceding that Sturgis is better than Carpenter. That's not my argument.

And everyone knows a 54 yarder is harder to make than a 48 yarder, that's a given.

The question is when you have a WIN in your pocket by turning a 48 yarder into a 44 yarder, do you throw a long bomb?

The question is do you rely on your kicker to make a 48 yarder (which although it is not a 54 yarder is certainly NOT a 35 yarder) when you can make it a 44 yarder?????????????

Does that kind of over-confidence have the opposite effect of putting TOO much pressure on the kicker?

Is this point too subtle for a lot of you to get?

The only thing worse than kickers is sitting around discussing kickers.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Okay, let me give you guys a simple analogy.

Under which situation is the guy PUT UNDER MORE PRESSURE?

Situation 1, a teenage guy is accompanying three teenage girls home who live on his street, a bully confronts the group and starts messing with the girls. They look at the guy with them in a way like what is he going to do.

Situation 2, the same teenage guy is accompanying the same three teenage girls home who live on his street when one of the girls spots the bully who is minding his own business and looking the other way. The girls say to the neighbor boy, "That guy is always messing with us. Go over there and kick his butt."


The simple fact is that psychologically the pressure is a lot LESS when you have NO CHOICE but to act than otherwise when acting is a choice.

OK

Chren Wrote:Okay, let me give you guys a simple analogy.

Under which situation is the guy PUT UNDER MORE PRESSURE?


I samsam will finish the question..........

Under what situation is the guy put under more pressure?

A : If he is asked to kick a 54 yarder?

B : If he is asked to kick and 48 yarder?

________________________________________________________


Sturgis does not crack under pressure and carpenter does.

Im happy we have sturgis over carpenter because carpenter choked twice last year missing two very makeble field goal attempts.

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK
>
> Chren Wrote:Okay, let me give you guys a simple
> analogy.
>
> Under which situation is the guy PUT UNDER MORE
> PRESSURE?
>
>
> I samsam will finish the question..........
>
> Under what situation is the guy put under more
> pressure?
>
> A : If he is asked to kick a 54 yarder?
>
> B : If he is asked to kick and 48 yarder?

B. because he is EXPECTED TO MAKE THE EASIER KICK.

Where the expectation is greater, so is the pressure.

Let me ask you this? Where is the pressure greater to make a field goal, a 35 yarder or a 75 yarder?

Get my point? NOBODY expects you to make a 75 yarder even if your team is behind by 2 points only and there is only 2 seconds left on the clock and your coach decides to try to kick the field goal.

But given the same score and the same time left and it's a 35 yarder, you better KNOW that your ass is on the line if you don't make that 35 yarder.


>
> __________________________________________________
> ______
>
>
> Sturgis does not crack under pressure and
> carpenter does.

As someone else pointed out, not so far. But I'll bet that if Fumblin puts him in the same ridiculous situation of passing up getting him into makeable field goal range by throwing long bombs on third down, you might just see the same result. Don't forget this argument when that happens.



>
> Im happy we have sturgis over carpenter because
> carpenter choked twice last year missing two very
> makeble field goal attempts.


I'm happy we have Sturgis too. He seems to be the second coming of George Blanda but I hope the coaching staff doesn't screw him up.

The problem with you guys is that you really expect kickers to be rough and tumble football players like the rest of the team.

They're not. They are more temperamental divas than quarterbacks could even hope to be.

They usually don't hit or tackle or do anything but fret their hour on the stage, strut out and do their thing (I'm trying to be like BNF).

You may not like that but you have to accept that it is true.

B.....????


And he is expected to make a 54 as well as he made a couple of them in a row.

ChrenB Wrote: A : If he is asked to kick a 54 yarder?
>
> B : If he is asked to kick and 48 yarder?

B. because he is EXPECTED TO MAKE THE EASIER KICK.


I cant see nobody agree with you that a 54 yard kick is easier than a 48 yard kick im sorry.

I give up.

Trying to get you to see the point that is.

"Is this point too subtle for a lot of you to get?"

"Okay, let me give you guys a simple analogy."

I clearly understand what you're saying. My view is different.

The factors are pressure and degree of difficulty.

More kickers will make a 48 yard high-pressure kick than a 54 yard medium-pressure kick that they have to make twice.

A free throw with 1 second left on the clock (high pressure) is easier than a contested 25 foot jumpshot with 10 minutes left (high degree of difficulty).

People respond to pressure in two different ways:
1) Some people cave when under pressure.
2) Others are affected in a positive way because it causes them to focus more and because they rise to the occasion.
A good kicker should be among the latter group. If a kicker is a person who caves under pressure then he needs to find a new occupation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2013 11:29AM by Northeast Fin Fan.

Northeast Fin Fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Is this point too subtle for a lot of you to
> get?"
>
> "Okay, let me give you guys a simple analogy."
>
> I clearly understand what you're saying. My view
> is different.
>
> The factors are pressure and degree of difficulty.
>
>
> More kickers will make a 48 yard high-pressure
> kick than a 54 yard medium-pressure kick that they
> have to make twice.
>
> A free throw with 1 second left on the clock (high
> pressure) is easier than a contested 25 foot
> jumpshot with 10 minutes left (high degree of
> difficulty).
>
> People respond to pressure in two different ways:
>
> 1) Some people cave when under pressure.
> 2) Others are effected in a positive way because
> it causes them to focus more and because they rise
> to the occasion.
> A good kicker should be among the latter group.

RESPONSE: I agree with everything you say above.


> If a kicker is a person who caves under pressure
> then he needs to find a new occupation.

RESPONSE: That may be true or not, but should a coach recklessly risk a sure win on FINDING OUT whether that person is one who caves under pressure.

I, as a coach, would rather put him in the position where he knows that we have done all we can to make it as easy as possible on him thereby RELIEVING him of the AWFUL pressure that comes with the attitude that "Hey, you've got this in the bag and if you don't maybe you're not who we thought you were."

One thing is for sure, prior to that, if I'm not mistaken, Carpenter had gone to the pro bowl the prior season (this was the first or second game of the year), now he can't even keep a job in the nfL, I'd say that was a confidence destroyer.

Northeast Fin Fan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Is this point too subtle for a lot of you to
> get?"
>
> "Okay, let me give you guys a simple analogy."
>
> I clearly understand what you're saying. My view
> is different.
>
> The factors are pressure and degree of difficulty.
>
>
> More kickers will make a 48 yard high-pressure
> kick than a 54 yard medium-pressure kick that they
> have to make twice.
>



It goes beyond that. Its not the length of the kick that creates the pressure. Once you get beyond 40 yards its how bad you need the points to win the game that make it difficult. That type of pressure is in a guys head. He can either handle it or he can't.

Kicks over 50 yards are close to a 50/50 proposition for modern kickers.

Move them in 5 yards, from say 52 to 47 yards and you are talking about a 75% success rate (or better).

Over 50 a kicker has to worry about distance. Some guys just don't have the leg to kick 55 yard Fg's.

Under 50 and its about mechanics for most kickers. You don't have to worry about being able to reach that far. A normal effort will get the ball there. You just need to worry about accuracy.



Nobody in their right mind would seriously suggest that its better to have a guy take an important kick from 54 yards vs instead of 48 yards.

Okay it was the 2010 Pro Bowl.

Chyren, i'm not trying to get in-between you and The Truth or you and Samsam, but this might be your most ridiculous argument to date, you can argue Carpenter sucked (which in my opinion would be wrong), but at least that would be a valid argument, but to say that Philbin ruined him by asking to kick a 48 yard game winning FG is ludicris, you're making a mountain out of a molehill, and IMO you are 100% wrong.
These guys get paid to do one thing (and he was getting paid quite handsomely I might add) and thats kick FG, if things didn't work out and Philbin couldn't get him any closer, so be it, hit the damn FG and get carried off the field, get over it.