I don't blame Ross one bit on this one.

808- Let me give you some local insight... 1st) The stadium referendum was not popular, that is why these guys didnt support it. 2nd) Chris Smith and Weatherford are not going to get touched by any PAC Ross creates and those were the 2 joking around...3rd) Mr Ross is not very popular in this area, nor powerful in local or state politics, as evidence by his lack of support locally and statewide for his bill... For every penny Ross throws at attacking these politicians who by they way did what the majority of their constituents wanted by not supporting the bill, will be a guy like Norman Braman supporting them.... Ross is playing a dangerous game, but good thing for the pols, he has proven to be not very good at playing in this sandbox.. He will just make local people hate him more, no one gives a crap about a billionaire crying because he didnt receive welfare for his private asset....... It is unpopular on both sides of the aisle down here across the majority of the spectrum...

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

If things don't change, this isn't going to play out well. From Ross' perspective, the city of Miami is not exactly throwing a ton of support behind him and his football team, and I'm afraid that this is going to turn quite ugly down the road. I hope it doesn't, but something has got to give.

If there's on thing the history of the NFL has taught us its that the city of Miami needs the Dolphins a lot more than the Dolphins need Miami.

Can't say I blame them. The Heat have been a model franchise, pretty much, from the beginning. The Phins have had their issues as of late.

Go West Palm Beach!!!

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

Krunk- There are plenty of powerful people down here that would never let that happen.. Besides Ross is not very popular among his fellow owners either.. Wayne was loved by his fellow owners, which is one of the reasons we were awarded so many SUper Bowls during his ownership tenure.. If push came to shove, there is no way the NFL nor Miami would ever let the Dolphins leave Miami..Not to mention the value in the franchise being heavily tied to the stadium ownership and surrounding property being privately owned...

The reason the season ticket support has wained was a combination of the huge season ticket price increase in 2006/7 and the fact we have been pretty dismal most of the last 10-12 years.. The only reason the relocation is even a topic is because our cheesy NY owner wanted to use it as a threat to get money from the tax payers for his pvt asset..

In south florida politics you win some and you lose some, but you always keep composure and dont act like a sore loser.. Its gets you no where... That is Ross's problem... But he emotional reacted after his bill was shot down, and now he has another problem.. He made political threats, if he doesnt follow through on them or make nice with his enemies he looks toothless.. And that is also very bad for him and political power... So he has put himself in a bad spot.. The better move would be to make nice, be understanding, and bite his tongue. Work behind the scenes quietly to make it happen.. Instead he has gone the opposite route, which will be to his demise if he doesnt change his tune or win... If he wins everybody will throw money at him publicly and privately... Taking on this battle now was a miscalculation IMO, he didnt have any momentum or political capital to burn yet... Nothing would give him the political capital and feel good about him and his organization like winning... IMO he put the cart in front of the horse and now is just burning bridge after bridge trying to win a losing battle...

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2013 12:57PM by Crowder52.

Anemone1- why this is nothing like the Art Modell Cleveland Brown situations is the stadium in Cleveland was not owned by the Browns and Modell, but by the City of Cleveland. And the Browns 25 year lease was up when they relocated....Modell had nothing that tied him to Cleveland, the Dolphins do not have that luxury...

Also other powerful people in Miami would step up to buy the team way before Ross would be allow to move the team out of the city out of scorn... If a local Miami guy bought the stadium today, he would get the money tomorrow to renovate the stadium, just because the public would be so supportive of a local bailing us out of Mr Ross and his kooky ownership.. Even if we suspend all logic about the pvt ownership of the stadium and its value being tied to that of the franchise, I also do not believe there is a chance in hell the NFL would ultimately allow the team to relocate... It is not good for the NFL.. Jax or buffalo sure but Miami, no way... I am willing to put my money where my mouth is, ten year bet, the Dolphins dont relocate, you choose the amount... The books are open...lol..

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2013 01:36PM by Crowder52.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Krunk- There are plenty of powerful people down
> here that would never let that happen.. Besides
> Ross is not very popular among his fellow owners
> either.. Wayne was loved by his fellow owners,
> which is one of the reasons we were awarded so
> many SUper Bowls during his ownership tenure.. If
> push came to shove, there is no way the NFL nor
> Miami would ever let the Dolphins leave Miami..Not
> to mention the value in the franchise being
> heavily tied to the stadium ownership and
> surrounding property being privately owned...
>
> The reason the season ticket support has wained
> was a combination of the huge season ticket price
> increase in 2006/7 and the fact we have been
> pretty dismal most of the last 10-12 years.. The
> only reason the relocation is even a topic is
> because our cheesy NY owner wanted to use it as a
> threat to get money from the tax payers for his
> pvt asset..
>
> In south florida politics you win some and you
> lose some, but you always keep composure and dont
> act like a sore loser.. Its gets you no where...
> That is Ross's problem... But he emotional reacted
> after his bill was shot down, and now he has
> another problem.. He made political threats, if he
> doesnt follow through on them or make nice with
> his enemies he looks toothless.. And that is also
> very bad for him and political power... So he has
> put himself in a bad spot.. The better move would
> be to make nice, be understanding, and bite his
> tongue. Work behind the scenes quietly to make it
> happen.. Instead he has gone the opposite route,
> which will be to his demise if he doesnt change
> his tune or win... If he wins everybody will throw
> money at him publicly and privately... Taking on
> this battle now was a miscalculation IMO, he
> didnt have any momentum or political capital to
> burn yet... Nothing would give him the political
> capital and feel good about him and his
> organization like winning... IMO he put the cart
> in front of the horse and now is just burning
> bridge after bridge trying to win a losing
> battle...

Sorry Crowder, but if you think the NFL is going to let Ross, or anyone, keep this franchise in a deteriorating facility for very long with no promise of a new one with some (30-40%) public funds, then you haven't been paying attention.

Ross would have paid for this whole thing himself but the league won't let him because of the precedent it sets. His paying full freight weakens the position of every other owner in the league. Thewre is NO WAY the NFL allows him to do that.

So he will do nothing.

Eventually the team will be sold. The city will have to pay up then or lose the team. The new owners aren't going to be able to pay full freight either. And the NFL is going to look for a way to repay Ross for toeing the line in holding out for public funding at the expense of the value of his franchise. The easiest way to do that is to announce that whomever buys the franchise is cleared to move to LA.

So the cost to S.Florida is $200M now. It's of 500m+ in 5-10 years, if they are lucky.

All those powerful people in S.Florida you were talking about who don't like Ross and who you claim would never let the Dolphins leave had better wake up soon or NFL will give them the Cleveland treatment.

That is, they'll let Miami go to LA and after 5-10 years of no team in S. Florida. Eventually they'll let one of the other teams, like Buffalo, move down there for a top notch stadium paid for in full by public funds.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anemone1- why this is nothing like the Art Modell
> Cleveland Brown situations is the stadium in
> Cleveland was not owned by the Browns and Modell,
> but by the City of Cleveland. And the Browns 25
> year lease was up when they relocated....Modell
> had nothing that tied him to Cleveland, the
> Dolphins do not have that luxury...
>
> Also other powerful people in Miami would step up
> to buy the team way before Ross would be allow to
> move the team out of the city out of scorn... If a
> local Miami guy bought the stadium today, he would
> get the money tomorrow to renovate the stadium,
> just because the public would be so supportive of
> a local bailing us out of Mr Ross and his kooky
> ownership.. Even if we suspend all logic about the
> pvt ownership of the stadium and its value being
> tied to that of the franchise, I also do not
> believe there is a chance in hell the NFL would
> ultimately allow the team to relocate... It is not
> good for the NFL.. Jax or buffalo sure but Miami,
> no way... I am willing to put my money where my
> mouth is, ten year bet, the Dolphins dont
> relocate, you choose the amount... The books are
> open...lol..


Modell had a promise of the City contributing $300m to building a new facility and he left anyway.

That's why there was a lawsuit and that's why the city got the right to keep the name and the promise of an expansion team during the next phase of expansion.

Cleveland had stepped up to the plate for their team. Miami didn't.

That's why Clevland was eventually taken care of. Miami is headed down a far more dangerous path.

Ross has nothing tying the team to the area other than he owns a facility that is rapidly declining in value. Eventually it won't be worth much more than the land it sits on and what's to keep him from selling to a developer at that point and moving the team to another city?

Not a damn thing.

Krunk Fu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are plenty of powerful people down here that
> would never let that happen.
>
> What you seem to be unwilling to admit to yourself
> is the fact that there is nothing anyone can do to
> stop Ross from moving the team if he so desires.
> Stephen Ross owns the Dolphins, and as such he has
> every right relocate them if he sees fit. The city
> of Miami has absolutely no say in the matter.


I'm all for it as long as they stay in Florida. The last laugh is always the loudest.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

I have seen the phrase "city of Miami" several times in this thread, and although it's a technicality, the city of Miami has a lot less to do with the stadium and the Miami Dolphins than a lot of you might think.

Joe Robbie moved the team OUT of the city of Miami in the 1980s. The city of Miami was the reason why he did that. They were impossible to deal with. He built the new stadium (with his own money---I guess the NFL allowed that sort of thing back then) elsewhere in Dade County, near the County line that bordered Broward. The County Mayor at the time was Steve Clark who was much easier to deal with than the administration of the city of Miami.

Since the move from the orange bowl to JRS, the team has dealt with Dade County (and to a lesser extent, Broward where the training facility and HQ are located), not the "City of Miami." The proposed raises in taxes are at the county level, not the city level.

Should elected politicians be rubbing Ross's nose in this via Twitter? Ross may be a hated man, but this Weatherford character seems like a real tool.

And Crowder maybe you can answer this, why/how does Braman have so much political power in the State, and what is his axe to grind with Ross?

having a busy day will get back to respond later tonight or in the AM

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> having a busy day will get back to respond later
> tonight or in the AM

Me too...was travelling yesterday.

Thanks for the local insight - It's hard for someone like me who lives 6K miles away from my favorite team to know what it's like there.

Crowder, where did I get the false impression that you lived in and had a business in Colorado?

But let's be honest, most of the hotels, restaurants, and tourist traps that see an increase in sales as a result of football games and especially Super Bowls are in Miami.

I'm not sure if that's quite correct Krunk.
I would think that most of the hotels, restaurants and tourist places are closer to and on the beaches. Miami Beach is a separate city from Miami proper. Northward along the ocean are a slew of residential micro cities like Surfside. Bal Harbor, Sunny Isles and Golden Beach. Hallendale, Hollywood, Dania and Fort Lauderdale are in Broward. That's where the hotels are along with Miami Beach.
Maybe I'm confused, I thought Weatherford was on the state level in Tallahasee.

Krunk Fu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The proposed raises in taxes are at the county
> level, not the city level.
>
> Those taxes you're talking about aren't county
> taxes imposed on county taxpayers. They were
> intended to be imposed on tourists through an
> increase in hotel fees, so its misleading to imply
> that Ross was trying to increase taxes at a county
> level.

Absolutely correct. I didn't mean to imply that Dade *residents* would be subject to the tax. It's a hotel tax on hotels in Dade.

but speaking of misleading, the reason for my post was that it's misleading for us to be throwing around the term "City of Miami" in this discussion. It's much more of a county issue.


> The simple fact of the matter is that you can
> replace "cit of Miami" with "Dade County" or
> "South Florida" and nothing changes.

Not exactly.
I agree that to the outside world it's all the same. People also throw in South Beach interchangeably which is also inaccurate--"I can't wait for the home games at South Beach"---that's only true with beach volleyball. And I did admit at the beginning of my post that I"m basically pointing out a technicality.

But you yourself pointed out one of the differences. The hotels in question throughout Dade would be subject to the tax NOT in the City of Miami. The footprint of the City Miami within the county is rather small. The geographic reach of the City Limits don't reach much of the Dade population and they certainly don't reach the beach or the hotels out west by the airport or in the southwest section of the county. And of course the city government is made up of a different group of clowns than the clowns in the County government.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crowder, where did I get the false impression that
> you lived in and had a business in Colorado?


I am not sure Chyren, I own homes in south florida and Bahamas, those are my home bases... I travel to Colorado some times for vacation... Been involved in businesses locally, LA, NY, carribean and south america mainly, never been part of a business nor lived in Colorado..

I thought everyone knew I was one of the few local guys around here...

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2013 11:15AM by Crowder52.

808phan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Me too...was travelling yesterday.
>
> Thanks for the local insight - It's hard for
> someone like me who lives 6K miles away from my
> favorite team to know what it's like there.

No worries 808, been traveling a lot lately as well... Do you travel around the islands or back to the mainland?

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Krunk Fu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are plenty of powerful people down here that
> would never let that happen.
>
> What you seem to be unwilling to admit to yourself
> is the fact that there is nothing anyone can do to
> stop Ross from moving the team if he so desires.
> Stephen Ross owns the Dolphins, and as such he has
> every right relocate them if he sees fit. The city
> of Miami has absolutely no say in the matter.


Ross will sell the team before he ever relocates it. Ross and Dee have made it clear, Ross will not relocate the team... Nobody is going to relocate to a better position then the Dolphins are currently in. And I believe they will get some public money in the next 5 years especially if they win or Ross will do the upgrade himself..

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Should elected politicians be rubbing Ross's nose
> in this via Twitter? Ross may be a hated man, but
> this Weatherford character seems like a real
> tool.
>
> And Crowder maybe you can answer this, why/how
> does Braman have so much political power in the
> State, and what is his axe to grind with Ross?


Braman is upset at the issue, not with Ross personal up until this issue.. Braman has a reputation of taking out politicians in south florida, that do not uphold conservative fiscal values... Ross is an out of towner, Florida politics always wash outsiders and it is 100 times tougher for them... Because they can be gone tomorrow... Braman on the other hand will not be gone tomorrow. Ross while fiscally conservative, is breaking the mold for his own personal gain on this issues. Braman is calling BS on him. That is why he went after him...

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Ross had no political capital or momentum to push for this upgrade. All he had was passive aggressive relocation threats and Super Bowl hosting to sell for tax payers money.. He also had being a new NY owner, who has done thing the fans dont like during his short tenure going against him. That was and is not a strong position... As the politicians above made it clear, winning makes people want to give you money. If that happens he will have a much easier road to hoe...
The way he is handling himself is bad, and foolish... He is a NY billionaire trying to bully his agenda around.. That doesnt work here. plain and simple. Just win and all will be well but nobody is going to trust him or give him the benefit of the doubt before he does that...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche