Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Crowder, where did I get the false impression
> that
> > you lived in and had a business in Colorado?
>
>
> I am not sure Chyren, I own homes in south florida
> and Bahamas, those are my home bases... I travel
> to Colorado some times for vacation... Been
> involved in businesses locally, LA, NY, carribean
> and south america mainly, never been part of a
> business nor lived in Colorado..
>
> I thought everyone knew I was one of the few local
> guys around here...


Chyren maybe you are mixing up Crowder with "Leon in Denver" who owned a business in CO. I think he sold it, moved to FL but hasn't posted in a while.

Then it jus may cause Miami and Dade County their most prized possession....I say that because the Heat season is not as long , they don't sell nearly as many seats, and NOTHING puts money in your pockets like superbowl Sunday AT your stadium. West Palm could use the Jack , as well as Orange county (Orlando) . Make 'em Pay Mr Ross! Show the who is truly in the drivers seat.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Krunk Fu Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There are plenty of powerful people down here
> that
> > would never let that happen.
> >
> > What you seem to be unwilling to admit to
> yourself
> > is the fact that there is nothing anyone can do
> to
> > stop Ross from moving the team if he so
> desires.
> > Stephen Ross owns the Dolphins, and as such he
> has
> > every right relocate them if he sees fit. The
> city
> > of Miami has absolutely no say in the matter.
>
>
> Ross will sell the team before he ever relocates
> it. Ross and Dee have made it clear, Ross will not
> relocate the team... Nobody is going to relocate
> to a better position then the Dolphins are
> currently in. And I believe they will get some
> public money in the next 5 years especially if
> they win or Ross will do the upgrade himself..


There is absolutely ZERO chance that Ross does the upgrades himself.

That is just a pipe dream.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> There is absolutely ZERO chance that Ross does the
> upgrades himself.
>
> That is just a pipe dream.


Apparently for the out of town owner, but every Dolphins owner before him personally financed the building and renovations to the stadium..... why is it such a pipe dream, just because Mr Ross is a kook and the first owner in Dolphins history to hit up the tax payer for improvements or construction of his private asset...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > There is absolutely ZERO chance that Ross does
> the
> > upgrades himself.
> >
> > That is just a pipe dream.
>
>
> Apparently for the out of town owner, but every
> Dolphins owner before him personally financed the
> building and renovations to the stadium..... why
> is it such a pipe dream, just because Mr Ross is a
> kook and the first owner in Dolphins history to
> hit up the tax payer for improvements or
> construction of his private asset...


Boy, you really have it out for Ross. Did he piss on your cornflakes or something?

Things change Crowder.

Change with them or get left behind.

Just because the NFL did business one way with S. Florida 30 years ago when Robbie built the stadium doesn't mean they are going to do business the same way now or in the future.

If the rest of S.Florida thinks like you and decides to draw a line in the sand (which is absurd considering they have given public financing to every other pro sports team in the sate) on this issue then they are kissing the Dolphins goodbye.

The NFL isn't going to let you win on the issue. They will move the team and punish you for not playing ball. If you are lucky they will move a county or two away. If not, they will move to LA. Either way, you are cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Today the price tag was $180m.

5 years from now it will be double or triple that, if you are lucky enough not to have LA in the bidding.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> You keep trying to paint Ross as some greedy "new
> yorker" which is both ironic because of the number
> of New Yorker's who live in Florida,

And Ross himself spent part of his childhood in S FL too, didn't he? They said on the Phinsiders that he graduated from Miami Bch Sr High. He's not a complete carpetbagger; he has some roots here.

Even Joe Robbie came from South Dakota to found the team in the first place. What a greedy South Dakotan

JC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > You keep trying to paint Ross as some greedy
> "new
> > yorker" which is both ironic because of the
> number
> > of New Yorker's who live in Florida,
>
> And Ross himself spent part of his childhood in S
> FL too, didn't he? They said on the Phinsiders
> that he graduated from Miami Bch Sr High. He's
> not a complete carpetbagger; he has some roots
> here.
>
> Even Joe Robbie came from South Dakota to found
> the team in the first place. What a greedy South
> Dakotan


What about his arch Nemesis in all this, Norman Braman?


Born in PA and made his fortune there. Even owned the Eagles.


Ross was Born in Detroit but went to high school in Miami and even went to UF.

He's probably got deeper S.Florida roots than most of the people that live there.

Truth- I don't have any problem with Miami City or Dade County voters, voting to allow their bed tax to be used for stadium upgrades if that is what they so choose... I think the state should stay out of it as they smartly did with the Marlins deal.. I just think the timing and Ross's reaction has been bad and not smart.. Win some football games, make people feel good about the product again, and all will be well.. But being foolish in his own timing, using the Super Bowl and passive relocation threats and then acting like a sore loser disheartened me with Ross even more.. The orange carpet, club liv, changing the fight song,and changing the logo etc got the process going..

There are only 4 privately owned stadiums in the NFL it is hard to lump them in with the rest of the publicly owned stadiums.. While Snyder and the eagles recieved some partial public funding in unusual ways, it is hardly clear cut and expected as you seem to apply... Jerry Jones got his stadium built with the bed tax but he doesn't own it and pays 2 million a year back to the city which granted him the bed tax... Same with the new NY stadium and new San Fran stadium... So you can't compare those so equally to what Mr Ross proposed in his deal... The Dolphins will get the money eventually, Mr Ross being a sore loser because he didnt get it this go around, is stupid, foolish and just another example of why I dont really like the guy and his way..

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2013 12:18PM by Crowder52.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth- I don't have any problem with Miami City or
> Dade County voters, voting to allow their bed tax
> to be used for stadium upgrades if that is what
> they so choose... I think the state should stay
> out of it as they smartly did with the Marlins
> deal.. I just think the timing and Ross's reaction
> has been bad and not smart.. Win some football
> games, make people feel good about the product
> again, and all will be well.. But being foolish in
> his own timing, using the Super Bowl and passive
> relocation threats and then acting like a sore
> loser disheartened me with Ross even more.. The
> orange carpet, club liv, changing the fight
> song,and changing the logo etc got the process
> going..
>
> There are only 4 privately owned stadiums in the
> NFL it is hard to lump them in with the rest of
> the publicly owned stadiums.. While Snyder and the
> eagles recieved some partial public funding in
> unusual ways, it is hardly clear cut and expected
> as you seem to apply... Jerry Jones got his
> stadium built with the bed tax but he doesn't own
> it and pays 2 million a year back to the city
> which granted him the bed tax... Same with the new
> NY stadium and new San Fran stadium... So you
> can't compare those so equally to what Mr Ross
> proposed in his deal... The Dolphins will get the
> money eventually, Mr Ross being a sore loser
> because he didnt get it this go around, is stupid,
> foolish and just another example of why I dont
> really like the guy and his way..

Yes,

He's the bad guy for wanting to get even with those who lied to him about this process, cost him millions and embarrassed him publicly.

If I were Ross, at his age, with his resources, I'd spend one hell of a lot of money to make sure I got even.

I'm pretty sure most people would.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Dolphins will get the money eventually

And that's the problem with this whole situation. Miami will eventually have to pay MORE down the road because they didn't pay today, or risk losing the team.

It would be one thing if the people had voted it down. Majority rules. Can't argue with that. You just have to live with the consequences.

But this was nothing more than a political power play by Braman and his group. A power play that will cost the the people of the area MORE money at the very least, and at the very worst could cost them their beloved Dolphins.

I find it amazing that anyone could paint Ross as the bad guy in that scenario.

I hope he ruins each and every one of their careers/lives. Not out of spite, but simply because as politicians they have done a piss poor job of doing the peoples business.

Truth- Ross got bad advice and hired the wrong people... That is who Ross should want to get even with.. A smart advisor would have told him, that the likelihood of success was below 50 percent at this time... Either Ross didnt listen or he got bad advice.. I dont blame anyone in the house for not supporting his deal.. I have lost many of vote, and then won at a later date with the same people that voted against a project previously.. What I didnt do was threaten them and act like a sore lose after I didnt initially receive their support... And if I did want to take out a politician because of a project, I surely didnt make it public knowledge. Ross is doing what he is doing because of his ego, and that is why it is public... Ross will learn, but his inexperience shines... And he surely doesnt have the political power in the state nor locally to go about it the way he is going about it... Ross and I dont see eye to eye at all, hell I am a conservative and I hate our governor and would not support him next election if my life depended on it.. And that is Ross's big ally..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2013 01:49PM by Crowder52.

JC- Ross being an out of towner means he is not established and rooted in south florida business and politics.. He wasnt supporting any of these politicians 5 years ago, and doubtful he will be supporting them 5 years from now.. I talked to a big time dem lobbyist last weekend over dinner about the deal. And he told me that when you represent an "outisder" it is 50 times tougher to get support whether locally or state issues... He just said it is really tough.. It is exactly what I see as well, they don't trust outsiders... Many of rich guys come and go, while burning politicians or asking them to fall on the sword for them, and it rarely pays off... You cant be a fly by night guy down here, or you are at a huge disadvantage.. They dont like someone that they know is only there for their personal needs and will not be there down the road or have been there in the past, without that, it is a tough road to how... As I said he has zero political capital down here and tried to pull off a pretty big deal for himself without it... With just money, money is not all that power is made up of, probably everywhere but definitely down here....

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/28/2013 01:54PM by Crowder52.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth- Ross got bad advice and hired the wrong
> people... That is who Ross should want to get even
> with.. A smart advisor would have told him, that
> the likelihood of success was below 50 percent at
> this time... Either Ross didnt listen or he got
> bad advice.. I dont blame anyone in the house for
> not supporting his deal.. I have lost many of
> vote, and then won at a later date with the same
> people that voted against a project previously..
> What I didnt do was threaten them and act like a
> sore lose after I didnt initially receive their
> support...

Ross isn't mad that people didn't support his idea. That's not what he's looking to get even for.

He's mad that he was guaranteed, on multiple occasions, that there would be a vote in the house after it had already passed the senate and that promise was broken for political reasons.

He didn't threaten anyone until after he had the rug pulled out from under him.

Frankly, he's entitled.



> And if I did want to take out a
> politician because of a project, I surely didnt
> make it public knowledge.

No offense intended, but your project wasn't worth $450M and it wasn't tied to the highest profile business in the state. Your circumstances aren't even really all that similar so what you did or didn't do after failing to get support from politicians isn't analogous to what Ross should or shouldn't do.



> Ross is doing what he is
> doing because of his ego, and that is why it is
> public... Ross will learn, but his inexperience
> shines... And he surely doesnt have the political
> power in the state nor locally to go about it the
> way he is going about it... Ross and I dont see
> eye to eye at all, hell I am a conservative and I
> hate our governor and would not support him next
> election if my life depended on it.. And that is
> Ross's big ally..


I'm with you on that. Rick Scott is a snake oil salesman and a scam artist. The only good thing you can say about him as the top elected official in the state of Florida is that at least he's not Rick Perry.

Ron Book was the head lobbyist, Weatherford claims he never promised Book anything... Let alone Mr Ross... Sometimes people hear what they want to hear and I imagine that is the case...

No offense taking, I have been part of 50-75 million dollar deals with votes needed. It is all relative, the way you handle it doesnt change just because the dollar amount is higher. Rallying the politicians for support is the same whether 450 or 1, to be honest with you... You still do not ever do it publicly or threaten a politician publicly, while you still need support for anything down the road... That just shows Ross is inexperienced and an outsider... A local wouldnt burn politicians over one issues because it is a long road, and anyone with long term plans in the area would know they have many more issues in the future that you need political support for. A fly by night guy only cares about the immediate, he has no caring for the future dealings... Exactly what Mr Ross is playing into, his own caricature of himself...

Trust me, I am pretty knowledgable in this type of area, and spoken to many of the most well connected lobbyist and politicians in the state, they all say what I am saying... And many blame Ron Book, Ross's head lobbyist... Book is not connected locally to well, and failed to win the local politicians support. SOrry but that is amateur and foolish. Rule 1 in politics, if you dont have support from your own district or local politicians, you lose most of the time.. Politicians outside the area take the lead from the local area politicians.. They rarely go against what the district reps want... There was no rug pulled out from under Ross, he didnt have local support, it was obvious he wasn't going to get house support.. Weatherford took the fall for the local reps, by not bringing it to vote... It didnt have support, so it didnt go to vote. Weatherford is not the bad guy. He is just untouchable to Ross on this issue so he took the fall... If local reps supported the bill Weatherford would have brought it to vote, plain and simple...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 03:43AM by Crowder52.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ron Book was the head lobbyist, Weatherford claims
> he never promised Book anything... Let alone Mr
> Ross... Sometimes people hear what they want to
> hear and I imagine that is the case...
>
> No offense taking, I have been part of 50-75
> million dollar deals with votes needed. It is all
> relative, the way you handle it doesnt change just
> because the dollar amount is higher. Rallying the
> politicians for support is the same whether 450 or
> 1, to be honest with you... You still do not ever
> do it publicly or threaten a politician publicly,
> while you still need support for anything down the
> road... That just shows Ross is inexperienced and
> an outsider... A local wouldnt burn politicians
> over one issues because it is a long road, and
> anyone with long term plans in the area would know
> they have many more issues in the future that you
> need political support for. A fly by night guy
> only cares about the immediate, he has no caring
> for the future dealings... Exactly what Mr Ross is
> playing into, his own caricature of himself...
>
> Trust me, I am pretty knowledgable in this type of
> area, and spoken to many of the most well
> connected lobbyist and politicians in the state,
> they all say what I am saying... And many blame
> Ron Book, Ross's head lobbyist... Book is not
> connected locally to well, and failed to win the
> local politicians support. SOrry but that is
> amateur and foolish. Rule 1 in politics, if you
> dont have support from your own district or local
> politicians, you lose most of the time..
> Politicians outside the area take the lead from
> the local area politicians.. They rarely go
> against what the district reps want... There was
> no rug pulled out from under Ross, he didnt have
> local support, it was obvious he wasn't going to
> get house support.. Weatherford took the fall for
> the local reps, by not bringing it to vote... It
> didnt have support, so it didnt go to vote.
> Weatherford is not the bad guy. He is just
> untouchable to Ross on this issue so he took the
> fall... If local reps supported the bill
> Weatherford would have brought it to vote, plain
> and simple...


I'm not saying Ross would have won or lost and I'm certainly not arguing that he handled the process effectively. What I'm saying is that I'm far more inclined to believe Ross and the other person on the Super Bowl committee who said he was in the room and heard Weatherford guarantee Ross there would be a vote.

Those two and the groups they represent have ZERO to gain by lying about that. If they are ever going to get the funding they seek, branding Weatherford a liar would be the single LAST thing you would do. It all but guarantees your future failure.

As for Weatherford..."how do you know when a politician is lying??? His lips are moving."

The bottomline is that for the first time in 50 years the ties that bind the Dolphins to the Miami area are insufficient to guarantee they remain there. That little nugget is on Weatherford's head. As is the fact that the $180m price tag it would have cost to lock the team in for the next 30 years will double or triple by the time they get around to discussing this again. As is the money lost with the Super Bowls that will no longer be played in S. Florida. As would be the movement of the franchise to another state.

If the NY Yankees, a team with 100 years and 27 championships and a marketing brand synonymous with the state its self could flirt with moving to NJ to get the land and public financing it wanted to build its new stadium, you can bet the Dolphins will do the same.


If I were Ross and I truly wanted to end Weatherford's career I wouldn't form a PAC. I'd move the Fins to LA and blame it all on Weatherford's denying the people the right to vote on the issue.

I think the PAC is step one in that process. Afterall, Ross is a Dolphin fan his whole life. Moving the team isn't what he wants to do. If he can take Weatherford down by writing a check and whining to the press, then that's the best way to go.

If he fails at that, the next step is to move the team.

Truth- The people I talked to said Ross has no chance of taking out Weatherford... People in his voting district love him and could care less about Mr Ross and the Dolphins.. They say he probably got more support from his constituents over this issue then less.

For an idea of him, Weatherford won his first election in his district without his name even being on the ballot.. He won his second election by default.. Nobody thought they had a chance, so nobody ran against him... Weatherford father in law is a past Speaker of the House as well, and extremely powerful and wealthy man in his own right in Florida.. The family has way more power in Florida then Ross could ever dream of having... Ross taking out Weatherford anytime soon is a 100 to 1 odds at best... He is better off using his relationship with Gov Scott to try and make nice with Weatherford... These guys are not your avg chumps..

He is better off going after the local reps with his PAC then Weatherford. But I am not sure he can take them out either, they did what their constituents wanted. The referendum was unpopular locally, which is why it was getting smoked in the early voting...

As I said before barring something outrageous happening in Weatherfords life, he isnt going anywhere, unless by his own choosing..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

I have a couple of Q's....

I thought that Ross was going to pay back the funding or at least part of it over time, is that true?

Also, I read that even with the current sales & hotel tax, Florida is still behind the national average for total taxes on a hotel room. Is this true?

Finally, shouldn't the public voters at least have had the chance to vote on the stadium issue? Seems to me like a local politician made his decision to shoot it down based on his own judgement. My own impression is that there seems to be a personal vendetta against Ross.

Here on Oahu, Aloha Stadium is owned 100% by the state. The biggest contributors to our local economy here is tourism & military presence. The local politicians here fight tooth & nail with the NFL to keep the Pro Bowl (as bogus as it is) here in Hawaii. Just that one week of events adds tens of millions to the local economy - Hotels, restaurants, retail, car rentals, you name it. Everyone benefits. The businesses are patronized & the tax revenue jumps from it in return.

I agree with Truth that it will cost more later than now to get a Super Bowl back in Miami. The time to invest is now - nothing will get cheaper. I'm a bit baffled that local politicians & residents could care less about the positive impact of what a future Super Bowl brings. So basically IMO they expect Ross to fund something by himself that the state & county would reap benefits from in the form of tens of millions without contributing anything, yet Ross is judged as a greedy bad guy. Total BS IMO.

What a poor lack of political leadership for vision and business sense. How anyone could be supportive of any politician who opposes an investment in the future is beyond me. We have a 9.25% hotel room tax here on Oahu, and not one local resident here bitches about it. When a local resident here wants to have a "stay-cation" in a hotel room, we show our drivers license and receive a discounted rate for a room but still pay the tax. How politicians & residents in Fla think that an increase in hotel bed tax is something that's bad for them as residents is pretty stupid, especially when TOURISTS are the ones who are targeted to foot the tax bill for an INVESTMENT of hosting a future Super Bowl.

No problem. Send the Dolphins along with Ross here to Hawaii. I'd be all for it. And so would the politicians here.

*edit*

PS - This is just my opinion of an "outsider" looking in as I don't live in Florida. I no way intend to personally offend anyone who lives there, and even though I live 6k miles away, I love the Miami Dolphins with all of my heart!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 09:52AM by 808phan.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 808phan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Me too...was travelling yesterday.
> >
> > Thanks for the local insight - It's hard for
> > someone like me who lives 6K miles away from my
> > favorite team to know what it's like there.
>
> No worries 808, been traveling a lot lately as
> well... Do you travel around the islands or back
> to the mainland?

Both. Just got back from San Diego for a week, then had to work on the Big Island for a day.

808- I agree with you that Dade county voters should have a right to vote on how their bed tax is spent and if they want a 1 pt increase.. The problem with why the state house didnt support it was there was also state money. The DOlphins were planning on getting 90 million from the state and 289 million from the county bed tax. That is for a 350 million dollar upgrade that Ross is supposedly paying 75 percent of?.. The state was also paying that 90 million over 30 years which is why it was not brought to vote... It wasnt just on the county or it probably would have gone to vote....The numbers are a little fudged either way if you ask me... The reason being is the borrowing ability.. The Dolphins say they 379 million can only get them 167 million dollars today therefor that is all they are getting. But that isnt true if they procure the money from the NFL fund...

What the Dolphins agreed to do was pay the county back between 112- 120 million 30 years from now in a lump sum payment.That was their entire contribution from they way I understand it.. The county and state were funding the entire upgrade for 30 years with a contribution of 379 million for a 350 million dollar upgrade through which the DOlphins would procure the loan "privately".... The Dolphins say they would use the counties bed tax to procure a loan, but they are basing the loan amount, not on the interest free loans they can procure through the NFL Charity fund but on standard privately lending rates...... So I imagine that fudges the math again in Ross's favor on what he is really paying... The deal might have wiggled one way or another a bit towards the end but that is how I understand it... Not exactly as it is being sold by others around here...

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2013 12:05PM by Crowder52.

Interesting. I'm going to have read that several times Crowder. lol