dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth vs Chyren...............oh no, it's
> happening again!


Their debates on topics were always top notch, and well thought out and expressed on both sides... I think the difference now is they both know when to walk away.... I commend them both.... and glad we still get to enjoy some good wordy debates, that were missing around here for a while..... I agree with a lot from both sides as usual...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

I think Cheyren is just at the beach or something, no way he just walks away from this debate

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Cheyren is just at the beach or something,
> no way he just walks away from this debate


lol Berk, I am sure Chyren will have a respectful closing argument, but Truth is done, and I would imagine Chyren is about done... It is a tough issue, the answer is in the gray of both points that are being discussed..
It is a personal case by case decision, I truly believe some people dont deserve to have the gift of life, if they choose so abusively, to steal it from others... Justice must be served in some circumstances IMO, if the victims family are against it, then I think that should weigh heavily in the decision on sentencing of death... But if it is inconclusive, the victims family or families support it, then it should be on the table IMO... But there should be tremendous scrutiny and oversight on every step and appeal of the case before it is ever carried out..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Correct. My wife had a medical appointment that took the whole day. More to come later.

All I know is I have been personally involved in about 6 murder cases in my career. One was a double homicide committed by a 16 yr old. I know for a fact all 6 were guilty as hell. Only one went to death row after stabbing his wife's aunt 87 times when he was caught burglarizing her apartment. He had a long history of stabbings as a teenager. He was taken off Death row after the defense came up with really really out there point based on the Aunts background. In lieu of another expensive trial , he made a plea deal for life in Prison. She was put on trial while dead and it was disgusting IMO .

The most recent one took a hammer to both his parents and killed both of them because they wouldn't let him have a party. He won't get the death penalty because of his age when he committed the crime.

Don't believe everything you read. Most are on death row because they deserve it. Most don't even reach their sentence 20 yrs down the pyke and $millions later. Victims deserve that closure. I'd want it if some Ahole killed one of my loved ones. That's the mindset Law Enforcement has. We are there for the victims , because no one else is. Funny how people make these killers the Victims.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

Let me add something else before I exit the conversation.....the death penalty phase of a trial is separate from the guilty/not guilty part of a trial here in Florida. Meaning, if you get convicted of murder, the prosecution has to then present evidence in a new trial with the same jury as to why they deserve the death penalty. This is when they are allowed to introduce the convicted's past criminal history. Most without a past history won't get convicted or even put up for the death penalty unless the crime was particularly horrific.

Past history of these individuals contains past violent offenses. Stabbings, shootings. My point? How many of those 18 so called "innocent DNA" people have violent pasts that include other crimes? Also in todays world , you don't get convictions without substantial criteria. Meaning....Modern DNA proof .

This is NOT a perfect world. Only the 73' Dolphins can be given that accolade. But you don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Victims deserve closure. 1000's are on death row for the most horrific things possible .

Death row means a different existence inside prison as well. Even if you never get the death penalty (which is a far cry from the death most of there victims were given) death row sucks. 23 hours a day in a box. Most welcome death after 20 yrs of it.

General population inmates don't have it to bad. Cable, internet, 3 squares, candy and canteen, its a life they adapt to.

Don't believe everything you read. I've spent hours talking to some of these people and I'm glad as hell they are not on the streets and around my family. They are not victims. NONE of them.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

Yeah, the innocence project is not exactly a neutral source. 12 on death row seems extremely high to me but still that is 12 from 1976 (and how many of the 12 were sent there in the 60's or 70's) to 2013. Moreover with the advent of DNA, there is a less likelihood that there will be future convictions.

Were there people wrongfully convicted and executed in the 1930's? Yes.

But still with the 12, you have to reach the bottom line that are you going to REPEAL the death penalty berk because in all the years, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's since only 1976, 12 people are wrongfully convicted and executed?????

Again, let's get back to the reason we have government. It is for the protection of society.

So if you look at it level headedly, you have to say to yourself,....


We're sitting in a legislature, we have a death penalty we execute 12 innocent people and we perhaps deter 1,500 murders or...........

we abolish the death penalty and those 12 innocent defendants live and are never convicted and other different a..holes who are willing to spend life kill 1,500 people.

YOU ARE THE LEGISLATURE. You are not a baby. You are an adult! You have to make a decision!

Let me help you. You know how many "innocent" people die in traffic accidents every year?

Don't just pass that off by saying "that's different." You as a legislator could ban automobiles. Sure it's different but it is an example of how you as a society have to make choices dealing with life and death everyday.

You make a choice or will in the future about what drugs to continue to ban. Some want to legalize marijuana. Not taking any side on that issue but some will argue that more people die from drunk driving but some will counter "Okay so then why add another intoxicant to the traffic killing statistics?"

The point of me bring all this up is that you have to look at the life and death consequences of everything. It's just not as neat as "golly, get rid of the death penalty and we don't execute 12 innocent people." You have to also look at "Now how many people are going to feel free to go out and commit that murder they have been planning?"

And don't forget the 500 people executed in Texas and the hundreds executed in other states who WERE GUILTY. All of those people would not suffer death either if the penalty were abolished.

If you want to say it's an issue of morality, I can't argue with you.

But if you enter the world of logic and practicality, you have to say, "We're going to have a death penalty. It's not going to be perfect because we are human and humans are not perfect. But we are to do two things 1) we are going to try as hard as we can, and with the help on DNA we are not going to execute innocent people and 2) we are going to protect society to the extent we can by making every potential murderer know that if he commits murder and is caught, HE HAS TO INCLUDE AS PART OF HIS BEFORE ACTING CALCULATION that either he may be killed himself or he might have to spend the rest of his life in that small hell hole Treasure described, whichever is worse for him."

TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> That's the mindset Law Enforcement has. We
> are there for the victims , because no one else
> is.

Correct! Not even witnesses who recant out of fear or the same type of crazy hypothetical type "well I COULD have been wrong-Perry Mason type doubt".

Not even jurors who get second thoughts when the moment of execution nears and are willing to say they committed juror misconduct or saw someone in the jury committing misconduct.

No one else but us and the family are there and sometimes not even the family.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > All I know is I have been personally involved
> in
> > about 6 murder cases in my career.
>
> If THE Truth has his way, you better be right
> about those cases, Treasure, because if you AS A
> COP OR ME AS A PROSECUTOR are wrong as to someone
> we arrest and prosecute and send to death row and
> he is executed and later found innocent, here is
> what THE Truth says should happen to you:
>
> in my eyes, if you impose the death penalty on
> an
> > innocent person, you murdered them. And there
> > should be be Hammurabi type penalty for people
> who
> > kill innocent people, even in the name of
> > "justice".


Just for clarification....I never said the arresting officer should held accountable.


He's just doing his job on a basic level.

As for prosecuting attorney's...hell yeah. They should have skin in the game.





>
>
> FOOTNOTE: The "Code of Hammurabi" is famous for
> being an ancient set of laws that said things like
> "if you steal something, your hand should be cut
> off. It dates back to 1770 BC, that's 1700 years
> BEFORE Jesus and Julius Caesar walked the earth



Yeah...that's an extreme example of what I was not talking about.

Still, most people know it as "Hammurabi's code" which is an: "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

That is really 'old school' like the golden rule (do onto others as you would have them do onto you).

Of course, if you want to drag Jesus into the argument then the whole death penalty concept is pretty much shot to shit.

Its really kind of hard to be a real "christian" AND a hard ass on the death penalty at the same time unless you ignore pretty much everything Christ had to say the subject.

But to each their own...

LOL. Jesus and Caesar (did you forget him) were just mentioned to show the readers that you were talking about the way things were done essentially 2000 years before they walked the Earth. I'm explaining this for your benefit because it apparently went over your head but the rest of the readers got that Christianity was NOT being introduced into the debate.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Just for clarification....I never said the
> arresting officer should held accountable.
>
>
> He's just doing his job on a basic level.
>
> As for prosecuting attorney's...hell yeah. They
> should have skin in the game.

LOL. LOL. LOL. It's DELIGHTFUL to have you to debate again.

So bottom line you would let Treasure go and hang my butt. LOL. Surprise, surprise.

But let's examine that logically. We prosecutors don't go out and grab people. The police bring them to us. They catch 'em and we cook 'em.

But in your world WE are more responsible for that poor little serial killer's fate??????????????????

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Just for clarification....I never said the
> > arresting officer should held accountable.
> >
> >
> > He's just doing his job on a basic level.
> >
> > As for prosecuting attorney's...hell yeah.
> They
> > should have skin in the game.
>
> LOL. LOL. LOL. It's DELIGHTFUL to have you to
> debate again.
>
> So bottom line you would let Treasure go and hang
> my butt. LOL. Surprise, surprise.
>
> But let's examine that logically. We prosecutors
> don't go out and grab people. The police bring
> them to us. They catch 'em and we cook 'em.
>
> But in your world WE are more responsible for that
> poor little serial killer's fate??????????????????


Cops go out and arrest people they believe are breaking the law.

Prosecutors review the evidence and decide if the cops were correct or if its worth pursuing a conviction, and what crime the accused will be prosecuted for.

There is a reason one of the two has to go trough 7 years of higher education and the other can be hired with a GED. But you already knew that.

The idea that the arresting officer has as much of a hand in the wrongful conviction of a person (when it happens) as the prosecutor who decides what charges (and penalty) to pursue and what evidence to present in court is almost as absurd as you claiming that I was the one who suggested they were on par.

Now, as I said before...I'm done. Arguing with you is giving me a headache. I didn't unblock you only to have you "yell" at me or to argue in circles while you misrepresent what I was saying with your wild assumptions/conclusions. I certainly didn't do it because I missed your personal attacks.

I shouldn't have responded to your last post. There's just no having a civil discussion with you. At least I can say I gave it a shot.


Now as is your want, go ahead and have the last word.

I just know we can't abolish the death penalty because a few bad cases. Taken on a case by case basis , these are terrible people that need to leave the planet earth. The Victims and the victims family deserve the closure.

God forbid anything happened to my family , I wouldn't want to hear about some case in 1977 that went bad that will determine what happens to the Ahole who just murdered a loved one. There are so many levels and hoops to jump through in a Murder case today. 10-15-20 yrs worth. I'm confident the person being put to sleep will be the right one.

And just another word , the Pro life people have already won in a sense in my opinion. Most victims die horrific deaths, alone and scared. And in great pain. We give them a needle , and put them to sleep. I really wish we still had the Electric Chair. Let'em cook for 30 seconds , or even the Gas chamber wasn't that pleasant.

But its a compromise to the Pro lifers and they still whine and cry about it. Sit and talk to a victims loved one, go see the devastation they have caused before making a judgment on the system.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just know we can't abolish the death penalty
> because a few bad cases. Taken on a case by case
> basis , these are terrible people that need to
> leave the planet earth. The Victims and the
> victims family deserve the closure.
>
> God forbid anything happened to my family , I
> wouldn't want to hear about some case in 1977 that
> went bad that will determine what happens to the
> Ahole who just murdered a loved one. There are so
> many levels and hoops to jump through in a Murder
> case today. 10-15-20 yrs worth. I'm confident the
> person being put to sleep will be the right one.
>
>
> And just another word , the Pro life people have
> already won in a sense in my opinion. Most victims
> die horrific deaths, alone and scared. And in
> great pain. We give them a needle , and put them
> to sleep. I really wish we still had the Electric
> Chair. Let'em cook for 30 seconds , or even the
> Gas chamber wasn't that pleasant.
>
> But its a compromise to the Pro lifers and they
> still whine and cry about it. Sit and talk to a
> victims loved one, go see the devastation they
> have caused before making a judgment on the
> system.

TCPF, I don't think anyone in this thread was suggesting it should be done away with. Only that the system needs to be improved to do everything possible to ensure nobody gets put to death who doesn't deserve it.

The post that Berk added with the 18 death row convictions that were overturned with DNA evidence should be proof enough that the system can be MUCH better than it is.

Don't believe it, Treasure. When anyone asks for "1000%" perfection before the death penalty is administered, they are really advocating abolition (except if it is to execute ChyrenB for prosecuting a death row inmate who everyone is "as sure as sure can be" guilty , in that case, Truth would mix the lethal injection cocktail himself, turn on the juice himself, fire the bullet himself, drop the cyanide capsule himself, so I guess he really does NOT fit into the category of people who I can't argue with, that being those who oppose the death penalty simply because they believe it is wrong for anyone to kill, even the government, Truth wants to kill me LOL LOL.)

But remember, we don't know what the circumstances were behind those 12, (Truth says 18) persons that the innocence project freed. We don't know whether they were ALL actually innocent. I know the project only works on cases of innocence but when they get a recantation from a witness as to identification, that is "innocence" too although it relies on a guy who either way is a proven liar because if he is recanting now, then he lied then.

Next, I'm not sure when ALL of those people went to death row. Some could have gone there in the 1970's before there was DNA in wide usage.

Still 12 or 18 out of the probably tens if not hundreds OF THOUSANDS of murder cases is not bad at all...unless like Truth you are seeking perfection and are willing to abandon the deterrent effect of the death penalty in exchange for the never attainable goal of "perfection."

> ChyrenB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> > LOL. LOL. LOL. It's DELIGHTFUL to have you to
> > debate again.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now, as I said before...I'm done. Arguing with
> you is giving me a headache. I didn't unblock
> you only to have you "yell" at me or to argue in
> circles while you misrepresent what I was saying
> with your wild assumptions/conclusions. I
> certainly didn't do it because I missed your
> personal attacks.
>
> I shouldn't have responded to your last post.
> There's just no having a civil discussion with
> you. At least I can say I gave it a shot.
>
>
> Now as is your want, go ahead and have the last
> word.

RESPONSE: Maybe time to make another appointment with the doc, Truth?

And what about the Judges and Jurors Truth? If you are going to exempt the policemen who are the first ones to bring the poor schmuck into the system and you are going to execute the prosecutors who bring the case then why stop there?

If the police only arrest the guy and it's the prosecutors who bring the case, aren't the prosecutors just like the police when it comes to the judges and jurors in that the prosecutors only bring them the case and it is up to the judges and jurors to convict? Certainly the executioners are only doing their job but logically doesn't your "skin in the game" apply more to the judges and jurors who sentence these "innocent people to death" and should not THEY also suffer your "code of Hammurabi" justice?

I love arguing logic.

Its a sad state of affairs my brother no doubt. There liberal judges being appointed are only going to get worse, not better. I was born a democrat in New York City. I was in the Electrical Union there , it was a huge political presence. But as I get older I just turn more and more away from that stance as I see the laziness it spurns. It comes back to that old saying .......you teach a person to fish , they eat for a lifetime. You give them Breakfast lunch and dinner for yrs and then try to take it away , guess what happens?

They ought to see what some Russian Prisons are like. They truly laugh at us.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

And think about this. If these inmates are on a "hunger strike," then obviously their grievance is not lack of food.

Okay, and since they're in prison, obviously their issue is not that they don't have any shelter.

So they are being fed and housed.

They are getting the 2 main things the homeless BY DEFINITION don't get.

So what's their issue? Access to the law library? Lack of exercise equipment? Over crowding? Boy, I'd bet the homeless wouldn't complain about overcrowding if they had a roof over their heads and were given three meals a day instead of having to sleep out in the rain and rummage through garbage for food.

And all this to feed killers, robbers, and rapists. What insanity.

Like I said, I can solve all their grievances with several gallons of cyanide or cheaper still, like Utah does it, about several hundred bullets.

Inhumanity amplified by additional inhumanity is precisely WHY this society is suffering such horrific "karma."

Like the wise ones always said -- when you throw that bloody boomerang it always comes back.

The old testament Neanderthal eye-for-an-eye, highly judgmental, highly aggressive, "primitive" answer to wrong-doing has PROVEN it is NOT the answer based on the outcome. IT DOESN'T WORK!!!

But, as irony would have it, a lot of folks believe what we need is more or same "disease" to bring about the cure. Most cancer patients know otherwise…

At this point we're collectively choking on our own hypocrisy.

My opinion. Of course.

Okay, I have not searched the posts above but I am certain that I predicted that the reason that Hernandez shot and killed this guy was because this guy knew about a double murder that was committed outside of a nightclub earlier.

I said that Hernandez had had a conflict INSIDE the club. He went and got into his car with his posse and waited until the other guys came out and got into THEIR car. He then opened fire from his car.

Oden or whatever the third victim's name is probably got killed for just running his mouth or out of fear that he would run his mouth.

Typical STUPID criminal! If he had not committed the third murder, the first two would have gone undetected and he would not be in jail for any murder. Instead he will be tried for 3.