Just a few days ago, B. Urlacher claimed Ray Lewis as the greatest MLB ever. Uhhhh....here we go again with the "greatest ever" talk.

On just about any Dolphins message board, there will be discussions about the "greatest QB ever" with names such as Unitas, Montana, and of course Danny boy. I say it again....it's impossible to say who the greatest ever was/is at any position, unless one uses stats or something of that nature to back it up. But even doing that, the different eras come in, the different rules that teams and players had to play by, etc. That's why I say it is impossible to name a greatest ever. Ray Lewis can be regarded as "one of the greatest to ever play his position." I can live with that. As much as I love Marino, I can't classify him as "greatest ever," but he will always be in the discussions.

Oh, as far as MLB goes, is Lewis better than Butkus? IMO, teams "feared" Butkus where teams had to know where Lewis was. Big difference, but they were both great linebackers.

Anyway, what do you guys think?

I only saw Butkus play once, against us in the orange bowl. We handed the Bears' arses to them that day so he didn't seem very impressive to me.

I think it is really hard to compare players from different eras. I think you say, this guy is the best of my era..

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

I basically think you are right Crowder but if I had to say, mind you you're talking about a football fan since 1963 as a kid, I'd have to say that Butkus cannot compare to Ray Lewis and neither can Urlacher.

I think the only person I can name in a sport as the "all time greatest" is Michael Jordan. Even then, you get arguments of Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Lebron, etc. However, I think almost everyone when asked who's the greatest b-baller of all time, Jordan pops in their head first.

I hate to prove your point but without a doubt, the greatest basketball player was Magic Johnson! Guard, forward, Center, 3 point scorer, shot blocker. The Magic man! Come on!!!!

Michael Jordan: 32,292 career points
Magic: 17,707 career points

MJ: 31,427 points in 13 years (two injured)
Magic: 17,707 points in 13 years

Enough said.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

See, this is what I'm saying about you kids. You answer the wrong question. The question was not who was the greatest SCORER of all time, anymore than the question was who was the greatest free throw shooter of all times.

Those are stat questions.

The question was who was the greatest PLAYER of all time.

If I project YOUR answer to baseball, then the greatest baseball player of all time would be Barry Bonds based on the fact that he is the all time season home run record guy and next would come Mark McGwire.


No Willie Mays, no Stan Musial, no Lou Gehrig.

With many of these kids, if it happened before they were born, and they didn't see it first hand, it couldn't have been that great.

Rick

dolphan4545 Wrote:
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> With many of these kids, if it happened before
> they were born, and they didn't see it first hand,
> it couldn't have been that great.


I'd take a little exception to that. I'm a young buck so to speak, at least compared to a few of the long time forum residents, yet I'm exactly the opposite of what you say and know many of my sports oriented friends are the same. I wasn't old enough to watch Chamberlain play ball, but I know he's in the top 3 players ever in b-ball. I could name a lot of other examples. Like the 72 team. I wasn't around to see it, but I rank them as the best pro team of all time. Not because of bias, but because of what they did. Same goes for players in all sports for me.

ChyrenB Wrote:
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> Hey, if you were given a choice of ONLY ONE of
> the two to build a team around, which would you
> choose?
>
> That's what I always say about stats. They
> basically say nothing.
>
> If you choose Michael Jordan, you've got a scorer.
> That's it Where's your center? Where's your shot
> blocker? Where's your point guard You're going to
> have to get those from other guys.
>
> So if you want your team to win, you can't do it
> with Michael and four other grade C players. You
> are going to have to SUPPLEMENT Jordan with a few
> other A players to win a championship.
>
> But you can win a championship with MAGIC and four
> other grade C players.
>
> Simply put, both are great players, but MAGIC is a
> more complete great player, perhaps the greatest
> known in all of team sports.
>
> ..../ footnote: I know there were some great
> players around Magic but that's not the point.
> Take away those great players and which one, Magic
> or Michael, could produce the best record
> surrounded by a bunch of gumbies? Magic without a
> doubt.


I love Magic, but saying you can win with Magic and a bunch of grade C players is ridiculous. Just check history. Did the Lakers win ANY championships during the time after Kareem retired and before Magic retired for good? Huh? Anything??? NOPE!

As for Jordan, he was far more than just a scorer. During one point of his career where he was forced to play PG for a week because of injuries, he AVERAGED a triple-double. Magic never did that. The only guy you can compare that to is Oscar Robertson. Jordan made HIS team better just as much as Magic made HIS team better. Oh, and Jordan never played with a HoF center.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 07:12AM by montequi.

Since you can't compare eras, I would define greatness as the extent to which a player dominated the era in which he played. That said:

MLB - Babe Ruth. No baseball player dominated an era like Ruth. Whether or not he would dominate today is a completely different question. Just as it is impossible to determine if ARod would have been great in the 1930s without any juice.

NBA - Wilt Chamberlain. I too am a huge Magic Johnson fan, but using the above definition, Wilt is the guy.
Also, I agree that Magic made his teammates better players. I don't think the same can be said for Jordan. Jordan's teammates almost made it to the finals when he retired to play baseball. Individually, they were better without him. As a team, they were of course better with him. The Lakers were better both individually and as a team with Magic. When Magic left the Lakers tanked.

NHL - Wayne Gretzy. Personally, I have never seen a player dominate a sport like Gretzy did. He was like a man playing with boys.

NFL -
Offense; Jerry Rice. See the definition above. No player stands out like Rice. By definition of dominating an era, Marino might be a close 2nd. All of the guys putting up huge stats today are of a different era. Marino did it when nobody else was.
Defense: I really don't know. Deacon Jones? Butkus? LT? Reggie White?

If you look at the NFL on a position by position basis, would Lewis be the best MLB? I don't think so. Was he that much better than Zach Thomas in his prime. Was he as good as Butkus or Singletary?

Basically again stats. One time Jordan played point guard. When did he play Center ever? I acknowledged that Magic played with Kareem in my footnote above. See footnote above. Also, I remember Scottie Pippen and some others. Not like Kareem but not gumbies either.

Northeast Fin Fan Wrote:
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> Jordan's teammates almost made it to the
> finals when he retired to play baseball.

No they didn't. Orlando and NY played in the finals those years.

> Individually, they were better without him. As a
> team, they were of course better with him. The
> Lakers were better both individually and as a team
> with Magic. When Magic left the Lakers tanked.

When Kareem left the Lakers, that brought the end to Magic's championships. When Worthy got old...then they officially tanked.

ChyrenB Wrote:
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> Basically again stats. One time Jordan played
> point guard. When did he play Center ever? I
> acknowledged that Magic played with Kareem in my
> footnote above. See footnote above. Also, I
> remember Scottie Pippen and some others. Not like
> Kareem but not gumbies either.


Magic is, absolutely, the most VERSATILE player in NBA history. I'll give you that. But you can argue that Bird was just as good as Magic during their heyday. When Jordan was dominating the NBA there was no one else even close to him.

Oh..and as for gumbies....Magic also had James Worthy.

ChyrenB Wrote:
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> See, this is what I'm saying about you kids. You
> answer the wrong question. The question was not
> who was the greatest SCORER of all time,

That would be Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

>
> Those are stat questions.
>
> The question was who was the greatest PLAYER of
> all time.

Jordan, hands down.

Northeast Fin Fan Wrote:
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> Since you can't compare eras, I would define
> greatness as the extent to which a player
> dominated the era in which he played. That said:
>
> NBA - Wilt Chamberlain.

If you're going to there, I'd argue Oscar Robertson would be the man, not Wilt. Statistically, The Big O dominated the NBA far more than Wilt. Wilt was just a scoring machine.

Wilt was not "just a scoring machine". He is also the #1 rebounder in NBA history. He was also one of the top passing big men ever. He averaged 8.6 assists per game one year. A center averaging 8.6 assists is unheard of. That's more than Jordan ever averaged. Wilt was dominant.

Also, I didn't say that the Bulls made the finals without Jordan, but that they almost did. It took an iffy call against the Bulls for the Knicks to beat them and advance to the finals.

I think this is an agree to disagree thing. I live near Boston and am a Lakers fan. I think Wilt was the most dominant. Magic was my personal favorit; but many people around here think Bird is the best ever. Some think it's Russell.

How about we leave it at this. Top 2 by position (according to me):

PG:
1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson (overall stats and dominance vault him over Stockton..or anyone else except Magic)

SG:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant

C:
1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
2. Bill Russell (the 11 championships vault him over Wilt)

SF:
1. Lebron James
2. Larry Bird

PF
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett (His ability to hit 3's puts him above Karl Malone)

I agree with most of that.

Pg
1. Magic
2. Oscar

Sg
1. Jordan
2. Kobe


SF
1. Bird
2. Lebron


PF
1. Duncan
2. Barkley


C
1. Wilt
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Hakeem

montequi Wrote:
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> Oh, and
> Jordan never played with a HoF center.

True, but he did play with a HOF SF and PF in Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman.


If its going to be a stat based argument then I'd take Oscar Robertson over Jordan.

If its going to be about titles, then I'd take Bill Russell.

Before it is all said and done, Lebron will be the greatest IMO... How many of the players on that list can play every position and do what Lebron does from a guy taking the ball up the court, to 3 point shooting, to driving, to his play in the post, to his passing, his assist, his rebound ability, and stellar defense... Lebron is the most complete player on the lists above... He still has to keep doing it to have career accomplishments like the others mentioned.. At this point, all you can say, nobody can do or has done what Lebron can do...

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
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> Before it is all said and done, Lebron will be the
> greatest IMO... How many of the players on that
> list can play every position and do what Lebron
> does from a guy taking the ball up the court, to 3
> point shooting, to driving, to his play in the
> post, to his passing, his assist, his rebound
> ability, and stellar defense... Lebron is the most
> complete player on the lists above... He still has
> to keep doing it to have career accomplishments
> like the others mentioned.. At this point, all you
> can say, nobody can do or has done what Lebron
> can do...

I agree Crowder.

When all is said and done, Lebron will be the guy. He combines the best attributes of Jordan and Magic Johnson.

He's the total package.

The only question with him is how many titles will he win?

One or two more in Miami before he opts out and returns to Cleveland to team up with Kyrie Irving and this years top pick and start a mini-dynasty there.

Truth- Lebron isn't leaving Wades side after Wade took the back seat for him... They are like family, Dwayne is a single Dad with both his boys, Lebron, D Wade and kids are always together off the court.. Whoever wants Lebron better get Wade first.... Between Riley and Wade, I wouldnt bet on Lebron opting out... Look at the team Riley has put around him, no GM in the league can do what Riley can do for him.. Look at the Birdman signing mid season... Best mid season signing in the history of basketball for a FA...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2013 03:20PM by Crowder52.

Lewis edges out Butkus in my book. Butkus was a hard as nails player but Lewis was a hard as nails player and a coach on the field. I have always said the Ravens could have played an entire game w/ out defensive coaches the combination of Lewis and Ed Reed was that smart.

Sorry Truth, but Lebron isn't leaving South beach. He's being paid what he wants, given the treatment he wants, and gets a loaded team of role players each year. His team contends for a title every year. He would have to go against all conventional wisdom to leave that kind of situation.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth- Lebron isn't leaving Wades side after Wade
> took the back seat for him... They are like
> family, Dwayne is a single Dad with both his boys,
> Lebron, D Wade and kids are always together off
> the court.. Whoever wants Lebron better get Wade
> first.... Between Riley and Wade, I wouldnt bet on
> Lebron opting out... Look at the team Riley has
> put around him, no GM in the league can do what
> Riley can do for him.. Look at the Birdman signing
> mid season... Best mid season signing in the
> history of basketball for a FA...


Maybe he stays, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Wade us breaking down. He has a chronically bad knee. I think that if given the choice of being stuck in Miami long term without wade vs returning to his hometown team to right a wrong,I think he goes home.