montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MikeO Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And he also won thsoe 40 games with scrub QB's
> who
> > really were all career back-up's for the most
> > part.
>
> And it was HIS fault that the QB position was
> never addressed correctly. He passed on Drew
> Brees in the draft. He chose Fiedler over Huard.
> He brought in backups (as you noted) like Ray
> Lucas and Jay Feely.


Fiedler over Huard was the right call. And at the time EVERYONE believed Fiedler was the next good QB in this league. As a backup in Jax everyone wanted Fiedler in trades. And knock him all you want but with no offensive weapons he won A LOT of games for the Fins with little help.

Passing on Brees was a mistake. But a lot of people felt Brees was too small to play in the NFL at that time. Wanny wasn't alone in his thinking there. Of course now nobody would ever admit it.

And Jay Feeley was a kicker under Cameron....don't know why your upset with the kicker who didn't come to Miami years later?!

Saban is the 2nd worst coach in Dolphins history. Wanny at least took Miami to the playoffs. Saban was a disaster on every level!

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> you know what? we've been slow and steady for 20+
> years, always looking 2-3 years ahead. That hasn't
> worked out for us. I'm thinking maybe we should
> try something new.


**** you took the words right out of my mouth. thats pure insanity to keep progressing down the same road and hoping for different results. not only have we not won a superbowl since I was in the second grade we haven't been in one in the past 25yrs. hell we haven't made an AFC championship game since 1992 I believe. PTI KEEP PREACHING CHARACTER... (then sign a knuckle head like Incognito). I agree that it's time for PTI to think outside the standard Miami dolphins box.....for anyone keeping score PTI= Parcels, Tony and Ireland. ***

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
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> And Jason Taylor, Zach Thomas, Sam Madison,
> Patrick Surtain.


Go back and look at JJ's drafts. And count how many picks in the first 4 rounds he completely whiffed on. And in many cases, he traded down for extra picks, only to whiff on both picks. We had a lot of picks in the first 4 rounds that JJ completely wasted. And when I say he missed, he really missed. Count up the guys taken in the first 4 rounds that never even made the team. That was the beginning of our descent into mediocrity. We squandered way too many high picks under JJ.

By the time JJ got tpo Miami ... no one wanted to trade with him for fear of the media depicting them as being taken advantage of.

Thus no big moves like with dalls and few effective trades. (Picks or players)

Trying to buy a championship in the NFL rarely works out. When you get close you can go out and add that final piece, but I would be pissed if we went out and spent like drunken sailors. To quote the great Whitesnake "Slow and Easy"

MikeO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And Jay Feeley was a kicker under Cameron....don't
> know why your upset with the kicker who didn't
> come to Miami years later?!
>
Whatever dude. I meant A.J.Feeley.

Mark, name me 1 player in the last 10-plus years we have.drafted on the level as those 4 guys, and JJ drafted them 4 within a 3 year period.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

And Mike, I in my personal opinion, think Wanny was worse that Saban. Reason being, Saban took over a team void of almost all talent except JT. We had the #2 pick in the draft his first draft.

Whereas Wanny took over a team with only a couple holes and we got worse...EVERY YEAR! We got worse and worse every year. He ran our franchise into the ground. He started the freefall of our franchise.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Livivng in Bear country, i've had more than my fill of Wanny. He gets my vote as worse ever! (Cam coming in a close second)

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mark, name me 1 player in the last 10-plus years
> we have.drafted on the level as those 4 guys, and
> JJ drafted them 4 within a 3 year period.


A&O,
They were excellent picks. There was a little luck involved, too. JJ drafted ILB Lacurtis Jones the round before he took Thomas. He never made the team. If JJ knew zach was going to be so good, why take Jones? And as for JT, Mel Kiper insisted that he was a top 15 talent in the draft. So, taking him in round 3 was a no-brainer.

You have to look at the totally wasted picks. With 3rd rd picks, he drafted Brad Jackson, Ronnie Ward, Dorian Brew, Brent Smith, and Larry Shannon. That's 3 guys who never made the team and two who made no impact. If there were fan message boards like this back then, imagine what a bashing he would take for drafting guys in the 3rd rd that don't make the team.

1996
Traded down to draft 3rd rd pick CB Dorian Brew, who never made the team.
Traded down to draft 4th rd CB Kirk Pointer, who never made the team
Traded down to draft 4th rd LB LaCurtis Jones, who never made the team

1997
1st rd pick, WR Yatil Green, a player with a long history of injuries in college
3rd rd pick, LB Ronnie Ward, never made any impact
3rd rd pick, OT Brent Smith, never made any impact
Traded down to draft 4th rd G Jerome Daniels, never made team

1998
Traded down in the 1st round to pick RB John Avery, who was good in the XFL.
Traded down to pick 3rd rd LB Brad Jackson, who never made the team
3rd rd pick, WR Larry Shannon, who JJ called as good as Randy Moss but without the baggage, never caught a pass

1999
Traded down (twice) out of the first round to draft RB JJ Johnson

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mark, name me 1 player in the last 10-plus years
> we have.drafted on the level as those 4 guys, and
> JJ drafted them 4 within a 3 year period.

Just think what we could have been if JJ hadn't had wasted our 1st round picks! Randy Moss? Ray Lewis? Alan Faneca? Lawyer Milloy? Vonnie Holiday (drafted by Green Bay in the spot we traded to them)?

Who did we get instead?
Yatil Green, John Avery

DW was a very good DC, ok coach and terrible personnel guy which is why he got demoted in favor of another terrible personnel guy in Rick Speilman.

JJ landed some great talent but if he had any idea that Zach and JT would turn out the way they did, he would have drafted them higher. Good job on picking the CB's though. He had more busts than booms but overall did a good job....with the exception of utilizing Marino and forcing a non existent run game.

Cam was a great OC, bad HC and lets not forget Randy Meuller as a poor personnel guy.

Saban was an all around idiot.

Comparing JJ's 4 players in 4 years to the lackluster efforts of Speil/Wanny/Saban/Cam is not a fair comparison. How about comparing him to Ozzy Newsome, Scott Pioli, Bill Walsh, Don Shula or even Mike Tannenbaum.

All of these guys have done better than 4 perennial Pro Bowlers in 4 years of drafting.

JJ had a good run in Dallas but his heart was no longer in the game of football...he spent less effort analyzing talent and more time in his last years, daydreaming about fishing in the keys.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/2010 12:27PM by eesti.

Imagine running a 3-4 defense with Ray Lewis AND Zach Thomas in the middle? OUCH!

Imagine Dan Marino throwing TDs to Randy Moss? Double OUCH!

Can you imagine Dan Marino with any kind of defense that stop anyone when needed? 3 rings, that's what I imagine.

If you look closely it becomes very clear JJ couldn't draft offensive players to save his life, but he had a high percentage of defensive successes. He turned this team from a great offensive team with a suspect defense to a good defensive team with a suspect offense. That seems like a net loss to me.

Rick

I would also like to add that marino set the TD/season record at 23 years old (previous mark was 36).

Manning broke the record at 28. Brady at 30 years old in an age of football that protects the WR and QB.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Dan had decent WRs, I'll go along with the rest.

My point was he never had all the pieces of the pie all at once. Marks bros were great. Fryar was great, McDuffie pretty good, Gadsden pretty good, Martin pretty good but never had an elite WR like Montana did or Manning did.

For a few years there when we were drafting players like Yatil Green. He had McD and a bunch of cast offs, never was and has beens. Charles Jordan, Fred Barnett, Bret Perriman, Lamar Thomas, Horace Copeland, Kirby Dar Dar, Nate Jacquet, Larry Shannon.

and for the last two years of McD's career he was battling a toe injury that eventually force him to retire.

From 1996, other than one year from Tony Martin, the best WR's we had were OJ and Gadsden but they didn't exactly put fear in the hearts of DC's or cause them to game plan around them.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

If you look at the 1984 team, the defense that took the field in the Super Bowl was not nearly the defense that opened the season. We had a lot of injuries, and were playing a lot of young players at the end.

In 1992, we did have a good defense. And it was the receivers that let us down. The Marks brothers were shadows of themselves by the end of that season. Remember the AFC Championship game in Miami, with Clayton having an awful game. He dropped a long TD pass right before the half, fumbled a reverse, and just had an awful day. Keith Jackson had a ball bounce off his hands for an INT. Freddie Banks had a fumble deep in our end. We turned the ball over a ton that day.

MikeO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> montequi Wrote:

> Fiedler over Huard was the right call. And at the
> time EVERYONE believed Fiedler was the next good
> QB in this league.

Dan Marino and I beg to differ. So do many others. I wanted Huard, Marino wanting Huard was good enough for me.

But I will say Jay had a huge heart and he really did win a pretty good ratio of the games he started. His proudest moment was the game vs. the Raiders when he faked out Trace Armstrong and then dove into the end zone for he win. Other great moments, that win in Denver in the snow, and when he came off the bench in relief of Brian Griese.

JC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MikeO Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > montequi Wrote:
>
> > Fiedler over Huard was the right call. And at
> the
> > time EVERYONE believed Fiedler was the next
> good
> > QB in this league.
>
> Dan Marino and I beg to differ. So do many
> others. I wanted Huard, Marino wanting Huard was
> good enough for me.
>
> But I will say Jay had a huge heart and he really
> did win a pretty good ratio of the games he
> started. His proudest moment was the game vs. the
> Raiders when he faked out Trace Armstrong and then
> dove into the end zone for he win. Other great
> moments, that win in Denver in the snow, and when
> he came off the bench in relief of Brian Griese.


Who cares what Marino wanted? He wasn't a coach. He wanted his buddy to get a job. Not really unbias

MikeO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Who cares what Marino wanted? He wasn't a coach.
> He wanted his buddy to get a job. Not really
> unbias


I happen to care about Marino's opinion on the matter, because I believe he knows a little something about the subject. No he wasn't a coach but he mentored Huard a bit, notably during a few games when Danny was injured.

Not a coach and not really "unbias" but a valuable opinion to me.

If only coaches' opinions matter then I guest Realist is the only one allowed to comment.

He was Huard's buddy.....he wanted his buddy to get the job.

The coaches who looked at Fiedler and Huard objectivly picked Fiedler and they were correct. Fiedler won a ton of games.

Marino was wrong in backing Huard

MikeO Wrote:
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> Who cares what Marino wanted? He wasn't a coach.
> He wanted his buddy to get a job. Not really
> unbias

Being a HoF caliber QB, I trust Marino's evaluation of QBs. Huard wasn't Marino's "buddy" per-se. I don't believe Dan would have any reason to support one guy over another. He just gave his opinion based on their skills. In his defense, Huard played pretty well for KC. His stint at NE he played behind Bledsoe AND Brady, so I don't fault him for not winning the starting job.

MikeO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He was Huard's buddy.....he wanted his buddy to
> get the job.

How do you know this? What's it based on?

>
> The coaches who looked at Fiedler and Huard
> objectivly picked Fiedler and they were correct.
> Fiedler won a ton of games.

Fiedler won a ton of games as a caretaker QB with a great defense and running game. Huard won a number of games when he finally got a chance to start in KC.