the value may drop off (for what we need) at around 10 if Berry, Bryant and McClain are gone.

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“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

I'd rather have the OLB from Mich and an extra 3d than mclain at 12. Mark it down, if we don't draft him he will be terrorizing our qbs as OLB of the pats for years to come.
I think mcclain could be just so so. I'd stay put for Dez Bryant but we know the trifecta aitn't taking a wr first.

There are only a few scenarios that would make a team trade up I think...

A high value player drops like a QB.

A team with two first or two second round picks wants to trade up.

The Bucs have two 2nd rounders but need many players. Same goes for KC.

NE has one first (22) and 3 second round picks (42, 28 & 53) (this sucks) but no 3rd or 5th rounder. Once again they pick right b4 us at 43. They could really load up this year. They have 6 starters as UFA's and many needs but hopefully the bad drafts continue for them.

The Seahawks and 49ers have two first round picks. Both could use a QB but SF has the pick following us followed by Seattle and they both know we aren't taking a QB. Plus Sea has the 6th pick so they could take one there.

So if you eliminate picks 13 & 14 from contention for a QB, teams 15 thru 25 are set at QB....leaving AZ at 26 but they have said they are going with Leinart. Teams 27-32 are set at QB with the exception of Minnesota at 30 so the likelihood of a trade down are pretty unlikely.

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“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

eetsi good point but other than qb OL is a big time "reach" pick and if there is a run on them early a team might want to trade up to get one of the few top ones on the board, so that could result in a trade up (trade down for us)

As is WR and RB and Pass Rushers.

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“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

I think we'd all love a trade down scenario but as eesti pointed out we won't have many dance partners

Agree with phinfan2 re: need to get #12 value if we stay there and only a few needs worthy for us there. If not I'd be fine with moving down.

Wouldn't mind seeing us take cody with a late 1st or early 2nd if berry, bryant or mclain are not there.

Normally I am in favour of trading down. And I think it is a good idea if you can trade down 4-5 spots and pick up a 3rd and 5th type thing.

This year; however, I think there will be 1 or 2 guys who slip down to us because teams above pick for need.

I think the Rams will unsuccessfully try and trade down to get a QB in 3-5 slot. In the end...I think they will take a QB. Buffalo will draft OT or QB. Washington will draft QB or OT.

At some point and additional OT is going to pop up. I wouldn't be surprised to see Derrick Morgan and Jason Pierre Paul climb.

However it plays out...I think we will have a choice of 2-3 guys that match our position of need who would normally go higher than 12.

When we took Ronnie Brown at #2 it was pretty much a consensus that he would be lower pick in any other year (5-10 overall). This year we should be in a position to get more value at 12 than you would typically get. Let's stay there.

I dont care about adding more picks of medicore players that may not even make the team, if it means passing on one of these guys, CJ SPILLER, DEZ BRYANT,RO McC, DAN WILLIAMS, BRANDON GRAHAM. I am still TRAMAtized by the PRE-DRAFT TRADE DOWN that made it impossible to select RANDY MOSS, when he would've been on the board if we'd have waited.

I'm sure NEW ENGLAND would trade some of their 2nd rounders for our pick.

Phinjim Wrote:
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> Agree with phinfan2 re: need to get #12 value if
> we stay there and only a few needs worthy for us
> there. If not I'd be fine with moving down.
>
> Wouldn't mind seeing us take cody with a late 1st
> or early 2nd if berry, bryant or mclain are not
> there.


Yeh, lets draft another sure fire safety from Tennessee :-/.

Trade down even if Berry is on the board

you mean like Gibril Wilson or Jason allen? lol.

I wouldn't worry about drafting players from Tennessee too much. They have produced many Pro Bowlers. Maybe only 1 DB (Dale Carter) but I am not too worried about Berry.

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“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

TRADE UP for S BERRY !!

TRADE UP for ILB SPIKES !!

TRADE UP for FS MORGAN BURNETT !!

And be done with the DRAFT.

I really hate the idea of trading down in the 1st in most any scenario at this point. I don't want a 3rd and a 5th. I know there are players in those rounds, but the statistics on hitting on them are much less probable than in the early rounds. If McClain and Bryant are gone by 12, I'd rather take Dan Williams, maybe Earl Thomas, or the next best linebacker available after McClain rather than trade down hoping to scoop up the 4th or 5th rated LB left at the end of the 1st and then get all excited about who we're going to take in the 5th round as if that player will make missing out on a top 12 talent guy worth it.

Setting aside who or what to draft, I am opposed to trading down.

Trading down is done by draft masters like Jimmy Johnson, who despite a few exceptions) know what they're doing.

I agree with Panteraize and when it comes down to it, trading down for more picks with our incompetent draft team would only mean more opportunities to screw up with lesser talent being considered.

Think about THAT!!!!

Sorry but JJ was no draft master. In three years in Miami, he drafted 44 players. Out of the top picks in each year he got three flops. Yatil Green, John Avery and JJ Johnson. Daryl Gardner had 3 decent years in Miami.

I will give him credit for Zach, JT, Madison and Surtain and maybe an honorable mention for Mixon and Konrad but that's 6 out of 44 players. That's 13%.

The rest were mediocre players that went on to be backups at other teams or were out of the NFL in three years.

Even Speilman and Wanny got Todd Wade, Vernon Carey, Randy McMichael, Yeremiah Bell, Donald Lee, Chris Chambers and Rex Hadnot. Clearly not as good as JJ's best 4 but hell they gave away most of our top picks for losers.

It does reinforce your theory for GM's that don't know what they're doing though.

Are you insinuating that Bill Parcels doesn't know what he is doing? Come on.

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“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

I dont care if we trade up, down or stay where we are at....as long as we get studs.

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"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

And eesti, are you totally discounting what he did in Dallas?

You come on!

ChyrenB Wrote:
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> And eesti, are you totally discounting what he did
> in Dallas?
>
> You come on!

What JJ did in Dallas can be explained in a few points:

1. JJ arrived to a team that was in complete disarray which allowed him to rip the team apart and do what he wanted...hence, trading Hershel Walker.

2. JJ hit the lottery with Walker. The Vikings made a stupid trade. Just goes to show. That franchise has never won a Superbowl.

3. Not being too far removed from college, JJ had better insight into players at that level. Michael Irvin was a no-brainer (since JJ had coached him in Miami). Emmitt Smith the same (since JJ had played against him numerous times). That's 2 Hall of Famers right there.

Now..the same, above, explains why JJ DIDN'T have success in Miami.

1. Miami had been a perennial playoff team and had a future Hall of Fame QB..so gutting the team was NOT an option. Trading Marino would have been a P.R. nightmare.

2. JJ had no decent trade bait in Miami, so he was forced to sign free agents and build through the draft. Unfortunately, Miami's penchant for winning meant the draft picks weren't that high.

3. JJ was too far removed from college at this point, so his ability to make that genius move was limited. Add to that JJ's stubbornness and his need for full control, he didn't ask for or take advice from others. That's why we ended up with John Avery and Yatil Green.

So, I give JJ limited credit for what he did in Dallas as a GM. As for Miami, JJ (and his overinflated ego) committed the cardinal sin of taking one of the top offenses in the league and making major changes. I still feel if JJ would have come in, left the offense where it was (keeping the O.C. and the system) and concentrated on rebuilding the defense, he may very well have won a Superbowl with the Dolphins. Unfortunately, it didn't happen, and his tenure with Miami will remain forever tarnished.

I just saw a remarkably accurate microcosm of what JJ is all about, as I'm working late at home with the TV on in the background: I look up and see him smiling ear to ear on a commercial for a penis enlargement product. I kid you not. Jimmy (and his) Johnson is humping boner pills on late night TV. Unless I actually fell asleep in front of the TV and this is all just a nightmare.

His dandruff shampoo testimonial in the 90s was ridiculous enough, and now this.

He makes pretty good money in broadcasting, doesn't he? Gotta have some money saved from his years as a high-paid coach, right? So why on earth does he need to....never mind, I think it really is just a nightmare.

I'm watching Comedy Central and they just ran the commercial a few minutes ago. What has the world come to?

CHYREN WROTE "draft masters like Jimmy Johnson, who despite a few exceptions) know what they're doing. "

The exception you refer to MUST BE WHEN HE TRADED down early.... WHEN we could have taken RANDY MOSSSSSSSSSSSS !!!! I am still PISSSSSED about this! JJ SUXXXXX

Phinjim Wrote:
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>
> 1. JJ was unknown when he went to Dallas.....


???? I don't follow you there.

Nobody knew about his success at UM?

JC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Phinjim Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > 1. JJ was unknown when he went to Dallas.....
>
>
> ???? I don't follow you there.
>
> Nobody knew about his success at UM?


I think he meant as a GM.

Perhaps someone will do a scholarly comparison of the drafting abilities of the Tuna.

I don't think that they come close, of course not concentrating on Miami alone but let's compare NYG to Dallas.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps someone will do a scholarly comparison of
> the drafting abilities of the Tuna.
>
> I don't think that they come close, of course not
> concentrating on Miami alone but let's compare NYG
> to Dallas.

The Tuna's never had draft picks like THIS to work with:

Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1990
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1990
Minnesota's 6th round pick in 1990
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1991
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1991
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1992
Minnesota's 3rd round pick in 1992
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1993

That's what Dallas received for Hershel Walker and two 3rd round picks, a 5th, and a 10th (...10th? were those picks worth anything?).

What he did in Dallas....everyone wants to give all the credit to JJ but the reason he left was bc Jones was slowly taking back the control.

The fact is that JJ came up with the idea to trade Walker. JJ actually wanted to trade HOFer Michael Irvin but Jones shot down the idea.

I's sure JJ had the majorty of the input on those first drafts because of his familiarity with the NCAA and just having coached and recruited there but how hard is to run a draft when you have 2 and 3 first round picks?

Also....Irvin was already their before JJ arrived so he doesn't get credit for that one.

He had the number one overall pick in his first draft and got Aikman. Wow! Aikman was the ONLY QB that year to have a first round grade and was the ONLY QB taken in the first round. He also passed on Barry Sanders to take Aikman.

In 1990 he took Emmitt Smith at 17. The so-called top RB was off the board. He should thank the idiot Jets for selecting Blair Thomas and that fiasco.

In 1991 he had the 1st overall, 12th and 20th pick in the first round.

The top rated player Rocket Ismail defected to Canada and they took Russell Maryland who went to ONE Pro Bowl. They traded up to get the number 1 overall and gave up a second.

Ted Washington (4x PB'er) turned out to be the best DT in the draft. He was selected at 25 by SF.

They tried to move up again to take Charles McRae....yeah who? but were unsuccessful so they took Alvin Harper at 12. He never had a thousand yard season and then they took Kelvin Pritchett, who was traded to Detroit for 2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks.

They took Dixon Edwards with the 2nd. (passed on Roman Phifer, Bryan Cox, Mo Lewis, Keith Traylor...yes he was a LB'er..wow)

Overall not too bad considering the lack of talent in that draft other than Brett Favre, Ricky Waters and Eric Turner (who died of cancer at 31) but nothing too great here.

In 1992 (two 1st rounders) they took Kevin Smith (1 P at 17 and Robert Jones at 24. Passed on players like Dale Carter and Carl Pickens.

Landed Darren Woodsen in the 2nd along with Jimmy Smith, who they never were able to develop and traded after one year and went on to 5 Pro Bowls and NINE, one-thousand yard seasons.

I will give them credit for putting together a good roster with the lower round picks....Woodsen, Johnston, Steve Wisniewski.

They already had Irvin, took the only QB they could and ended up with Aikman and got E. Smith.

They could have had Michael Irvin, Barry Sanders and Brett Favre.

They already had Nate Newton, Kevin Gogan and didn't get Larry Allen until after JJ left.

So how much greatness was there and how much luck?

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“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Perhaps someone will do a scholarly comparison
> of
> > the drafting abilities of the Tuna.
> >
> > I don't think that they come close, of course
> not
> > concentrating on Miami alone but let's compare
> NYG
> > to Dallas.
>
> The Tuna's never had draft picks like THIS to work
> with:
>
> Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1990
> Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1990
> Minnesota's 6th round pick in 1990
> Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1991
> Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1991
> Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1992
> Minnesota's 3rd round pick in 1992
> Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1993
>
> That's what Dallas received for Hershel Walker and
> two 3rd round picks, a 5th, and a 10th (...10th?
> were those picks worth anything?).

RESPONSE: Hey folks, Jimmy's talent was ALWAYS recognized to be his draft moves moreso than his draft PICKs. This just verifies it. So either he made a great move or the other parties were suckers.

Let's keep in mind folks what we are talking about. Just like in the discussion about San Diego letting Drew Brees go, you stat geeks like to pick and point out specific details. The point is that Jimmy was a draft master. My point was that our people have a history of screwing up in the draft. No one has given me great draft moves or PICKS made by the Tuna. All you stat geeks can say is essentially, look how lucky JJ was.

However, the old saying is always "When you succeed, it is skill, when the other guy succeeds, it is luck, when you fail, it's bad luck, when the other guy fails, it's his fault."