Now for the other issue of whether Zach deserves it or not. You say he doesn't and your basis for the argument is by way of comparison to Urlacher and Lewis.

#1. HOF induction is not a team achievment. It is an individual one. You can say that Urlacher "led" his team or that Lewis "led" his team but that is an oversimplification.

Urlacher was not even the leading SOLO tackler that year. LANCE BRIGGS was...113 to 93. (That's your measurement method)

You also want to say that BU did this without the help of an offense and in spite of crappy QB play but the fact is that Chicago was ranked 2nd in offense that year. They also had the leagues best Special Team unit with Hester scoring 5 TD's.

Urlacher also had the leagues most opportunistic players on defense surrounding him that year. They had 24 FF's. One of which was forced by Urlacher. They had 30 FR's. One of which was recoverd by Urlacher. They had 24 INTs. 3 of which were by BU. They had 3 Defensive TD's. None of which were by BU.

So how much credit does he deserve for that season? Not enough to say he willed them their with his play alone.

There is more to being inducted into he hall of fame than playing in important games and championships. You can't lay that on one individual. Like I said...those things are team achievements. No 1 player "leads" their team to championships unless your a QB like Marino or Manning.

Ray Lewis played on one of the best defenses of all time. He did not single-handedly make them the best defense. It is also about scheme and surrounding personnel. Rod Woodson (HOFer), Two of the leagues best CB's and (in a 4-3 defense) two outstanding outside LB'ers in Peter Boulware and Jamie Sharper. Zach Never played with a LBer crew like that. In fact nowhere near to that talent. They also had the leagues best run stuffing DT's in Adams and Siragusa.

Sure the Dolphins fielded some pretty good defenses but they always had a weak link somewhere. It was usually a pretty good player that gave up one too many big plays....like at FS or SS...or a DT with a bad back. Gardner.

There are also a few other things called heart, determination, work ethic, impeccable character (no murder charges) and the ability to overcoming physical obstacles that make players HOF'ers. Zach had all of those.

For a 5th round player from tiny Texas Tech standing 5'10 (with cleats on) 235 lb MLB with no speed to even be compared to a so called first ballot HOF'er in Ray Lewis or to accomplish what he has is amazing in itself.

Lewis was a 1st round MLB from powerhouse Miami (AKA Linebacker U) that stood 6'1 and 250 and ran a 4.5 40.

We had great defenses because of Zach and JT. Not the other way around. Sure we had some good defenses but how good would they have been with Channing Crowder at MLB? Not very!

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Wow!

eesti, this last post took the words right out of my mouth and I was wondering why these points weren't brought up earlier. I think Zach is the 2nd greatest inside linebacker of our time and Him and Ray both deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. Also, I don't put Urlacher in the category of great linebackers. In my opinion, he wasn't 'great' for a long enough period of time.

Zach will definitley get in, maybe not 1st round ballot, but soon there after.

Mike O oh Mike O were are thou Mike O no response?

realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Zach deserves to be in the Hall of Fame because he
> was the best in the league at his positions for
> several seasons.
>
> it isn't just that he had huge numbers. There were
> seasons in which he had more tackles than any
> other LB in the league.
>
> The HOF typically looks at whether or not the
> player was able to dominate at their position for
> an extended period of time.
>
> The fact that Ray Lewis also had similar numbers
> during some of Zach's does not diminish his place
> in NFL History.
>
> Think of him as the Dan Fouts of LB's. Dan never
> lead his team to a Superbowl, he did not set any
> major records, he was outplayed by Marino, Kelly,
> Montana...but he got in...because he was great.
>
> Why would he not make it? Because Ray Lewis
> deserves it too? or more?
>
> Zach Thomas has more tackles than ANY Linebacker
> in the Hall of Fame.
>
> he deserves to be in.

Just like Nick Bouniconti. Makes me wonder if Nick could make it today. He was 5'11" 220 lbs. Would be nothing with today's training to add 15 lbs of muscle. He was the same type of player that Zach was. Smart, quick as a cat, and could really hit.
Just a thought. Zach deserves it, but so does Kooch.

I told Mike that he should have stopped a loooong time ago, but once again, he never does.

He got totally anihalated on this post.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

I am a phin fan that lives in Bmore area love the phins and like Zach but he is not a Hof Famer now way can yu compare him to Ray Lewis. Lewis is very far ahead of Zach as MLB. I never thought of Zach or JT as hall of famers.

I agree that Zach is no Ray Lewis, but then Nick was no Butkis either.

Ray deserves it and so does Zach. Whether he gets in or not, who really knows?

Stats are only one part of the puzzle. What a player meant to his team, making the pro bowl and all pro are big also. It's not that Zach should make it ahead or equal to Ray, it's will he make it eventually.

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I told Mike that he should have stopped a loooong
> time ago, but once again, he never does.
>
> He got totally anihalated on this post.


While many may disagree with me....at least I don't go back hours later and EDIT my posts and claim I never said something like you did!!

ranger1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mike O oh Mike O were are thou Mike O no response?


Sorry I have a job and can't be on this website 24/7

mizzou15 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a phin fan that lives in Bmore area love the
> phins and like Zach but he is not a Hof Famer now
> way can yu compare him to Ray Lewis. Lewis is very
> far ahead of Zach as MLB. I never thought of Zach
> or JT as hall of famers.


THANK YOU!! Anyone who doesn't drink the Dolphins Kool-Aide and 99% of America knows this. Zach isnt'a hall of fame player.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now for the other issue of whether Zach deserves
> it or not. You say he doesn't and your basis for
> the argument is by way of comparison to Urlacher
> and Lewis.
>
> #1. HOF induction is not a team achievment. It is
> an individual one. You can say that Urlacher "led"
> his team or that Lewis "led" his team but that is
> an oversimplification.
>
> Urlacher was not even the leading SOLO tackler
> that year. LANCE BRIGGS was...113 to 93. (That's
> your measurement method)
>
> You also want to say that BU did this without the
> help of an offense and in spite of crappy QB play
> but the fact is that Chicago was ranked 2nd in
> offense that year. They also had the leagues best
> Special Team unit with Hester scoring 5 TD's.
>
> Urlacher also had the leagues most opportunistic
> players on defense surrounding him that year. They
> had 24 FF's. One of which was forced by Urlacher.
> They had 30 FR's. One of which was recoverd by
> Urlacher. They had 24 INTs. 3 of which were by BU.
> They had 3 Defensive TD's. None of which were by
> BU.
>
> So how much credit does he deserve for that
> season? Not enough to say he willed them their
> with his play alone.
>
> There is more to being inducted into he hall of
> fame than playing in important games and
> championships. You can't lay that on one
> individual. Like I said...those things are team
> achievements. No 1 player "leads" their team to
> championships unless your a QB like Marino or
> Manning.
>
> Ray Lewis played on one of the best defenses of
> all time. He did not single-handedly make them the
> best defense. It is also about scheme and
> surrounding personnel. Rod Woodson (HOFer), Two of
> the leagues best CB's and (in a 4-3 defense) two
> outstanding outside LB'ers in Peter Boulware and
> Jamie Sharper. Zach Never played with a LBer crew
> like that. In fact nowhere near to that talent.
> They also had the leagues best run stuffing DT's
> in Adams and Siragusa.
>
> Sure the Dolphins fielded some pretty good
> defenses but they always had a weak link
> somewhere. It was usually a pretty good player
> that gave up one too many big plays....like at FS
> or SS...or a DT with a bad back. Gardner.
>
> There are also a few other things called heart,
> determination, work ethic, impeccable character
> (no murder charges) and the ability to overcoming
> physical obstacles that make players HOF'ers. Zach
> had all of those.
>
> For a 5th round player from tiny Texas Tech
> standing 5'10 (with cleats on) 235 lb MLB with no
> speed to even be compared to a so called first
> ballot HOF'er in Ray Lewis or to accomplish what
> he has is amazing in itself.
>
> Lewis was a 1st round MLB from powerhouse Miami
> (AKA Linebacker U) that stood 6'1 and 250 and ran
> a 4.5 40.
>
> We had great defenses because of Zach and JT. Not
> the other way around. Sure we had some good
> defenses but how good would they have been with
> Channing Crowder at MLB? Not very!


Three points came from this long-winded post..

1) Urlacher is overrated in your eyes
2) Ray Lewis is a monster
3) And Zach Thomas overachieved in his career.

Great. Still doesn't help Zach's resume and make him a Hall of Fame player!!!

While all 3 points are accurate...overachieved is huge understatement. He outplayed every MLB in the NFL (not named Ray Lewis) over the last decade and a half.

The only thing that makes him a HOF player is when he gets voted in by the committee.

You say long winded post....I say overabundance of evidence.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

MikeO, if this were the Ole West, you'd have been lynched a hundred times if you had a hundred lives.....all for a different reason.

If there is no place in the Hall of Fame for Zach, they may as well close down the place.

Decade and a half?????? That's 15 years...he only had a 13 year career and at the end those last 2 years years were throw away garbage years, what are you talking about you don't even have the FACTS straight.....whatever. I ain't changing your mind. You ain't changing mind.

Im not gonna go in circles forever on this . Time will tell who is right.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MikeO, if this were the Ole West, you'd have been
> lynched a hundred times if you had a hundred
> lives.....all for a different reason.
>
> If there is no place in the Hall of Fame for Zach,
> they may as well close down the place.


Should I buy the locks or you??

Cause he ain't getting in!!

Its funny how Mike is trying to take him getting pummeled out on me...when he is not even dealing with the guys that crushed him.


Good job, Mike....

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

He has no ammo so he has to attack the little stuff like a decade and a half being 15 years and Zach only playing for 13 and being injured for the last two. I don't even have the facts straight. lol

I see no response to the abundance of other points I made....typical.

The point was that no LBer (not RL) over the last decade and a half has outperformed him....maybe longer

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Mike,
I don't know if Zach will make it, but I do know your OPINION holds very little ground. Take a look at who has made the Hall. Zach has produced way beyond the norm. Players get in that have less credentials that him. That is the whole point here in case you missed it.
Your OPINION is not law. It took Floyd Little 30 plus years.

Anyway, this is a useless post. So I'm done with it. Seee Ya.

Very true....very true!

Mike is still getting hammered and still trying to take his embarrassment out on me. Lol....this is too funny.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

In the words of MikeO...."hahahahhahahahalolololoolo"

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

blah blah blah blah blah....

Getting hammered! lol, ok! I have backed up my opinion. You might not agree but like I said. time will tell.

Now go back to putting me on IGNORE! Thanks

FOFL.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

The NFL HOF was considered a joke for many years because every year they put in a set number of guys.

In MLB if only 1 guy deserves it...like Andrew Dawson this year....only one guy gets in.

In the NFL, they put in 6 or 7 guys every year no matter what. The fact maybe only 2 or 3 deserve it...doesn't matter. They are putting in 6 or 7 every year

Now, the room and standards for getting in has gotten MUCH tougher in recent years. So I do give the NFL credit for that