------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > > You are being illogical.
Phinsfan2 Wrote:
->
> Said the guy that blamed a heat of the moment
> brain fart by a player on the offensive strategy
> of the staff....
RESPONSE: Assuming you're right it is me that is being illogical but whether it was a brain fart or offensive strategy by the coaching staff is sorta what we are discussing here right? So are you assuming the very thing you are setting out to prove?
ChyrenB wrote:
> > On one hand, you admit that the staff was
> running
> > a hurry up offense and on the other hand, you
> > blame him for making the decision to try to
> KILL
> > THE CLOCK.
Phinsfan2 Wrote:
->
> Ummm...yes...call it "hurry up" or the "2min
> drill" but either way, its not a circumstance
> these guys haven't been in before.
Either way, I
> don't have aproblem with him trying to get out of
> bounds. I have an issue with him throwing the
> ball out of bounds when he couldn't get there.
> That's just not part of any gameplan and that was
> the brain fart.
RESPONSE: Let me stop you right there. You've said that several times before. What the hell does these guys having been in this situation before do to relieve the coaching staff from creating an atmosphere that should not have been fostered.
I guarantee you if we had been behind by 10 points and needed two scores, no one EVEN YOU would have accused Camarillo of having a "brain fart" for trying the ole fumblerooski.
But we weren't 10 points behind.!!!!! We were in a situation wherein we had to RUN THE CLOCK OUT! Not HURRY UP! THAT idiotic perception of the situation, whether you call it 2 minute drill or hurry up is the responsibility of the coaching staff.
ChyrenB wrote:
> > Conveniently, in your mind, you refuse to even
> > admit the possibility that the coaches told all
> > the receivers "try your best to get out of
> bounds"
> > and Greg thought that, with that dictate in
> mind,
> > he would try the old Raiders "Holy Roller"
> play.
>
Phinsfan2 Wrote:
> Yeah, I'm not buying that.
RESPONSE: Buy what you like. You've already admitted that the coaching staff put the team in the 2 minute drill. What the heck do you think, that Camarillo called the 2 minute drill???????
Phinsfan2 Wrote:
Here's your proof
> that they never said anything like that and that
> your assumption that they did is wrong:
RESPONSE: Well, that's just great. I ask for newspaper articles and you quote your own self saying that they never (publicly?) said anything like that. But you admit that the team was in a 2 minute drill called by WHO???????????????
Phinsfan2 Wrote:
Greg
> caught the 17 yarder over the middle on the play
> before this which moved us to the 44. He made
> absolutely NO EFFORT to get to the sidelines on
> that play. What changed in next 15 seconds?
> Did Sparano communicate his displeasure at
> Camarillio's failure to get out of bounds on that
> play telepathically? Did he do this with such
> impact as to force Camarillio to panic on the next
> play and throw the ball out of bounds in fear?
>
> I think not.
>
RESPONSE: Having been tackled in the middle of the field might have something to do with his lack of effort to get out of bounds. (I'm having fun with this now). "Bad Greg... Bad Greg... you made no effort to get out of bounds on a pass thrown to you in the middle of the field. You couldn't have been running a hurry up offense even though PhinsFan2 says you were in a 2 minute drill."
Phinsfan2 Wrote:
> Occam's Razor is a philosophical/scientific
> principle according to which the best explanation
> of an event is the one that is the simplest, using
> the fewest assumptions or hypotheses.
>
> The simplest explination for Camarillo's dumb
> penalty is that he panicked and messed up.
RESPONSE: No, the simplest explanation was that the coaches told "DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO STOP THE CLOCK. WE GOTTA KEEP THE CLOCK FROM RUNNING." and when he saw himself reasonably close to the sidelines UNLIKE THE LAST PLAY WHEN HE WAS TACKLED IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIELD, HE DECIDED TO TAKE A CHANCE AND FUMBLE THE BALL OUT OF BOUNDS.
A CHYRENB coached team would have been told. "Boys, like (Purdue All-American) John Wooden says, 'Be quick but don't hurry.' We don't want to waste anytime but don't get crazy. If two guys have you in their grip, don't struggle forward and get the ball ripped out of your hand. Don't worry about the clock. We have plenty of time. In fact, we've got too much time. We don't want to leave anytime for the Saints to kick a field goal."
and Greg Camarillo would not have tried that trick.
ChyrenB wrote:
> > The only brain cramp was on the coaching
> > sidelines.
Phinsfan2 wrote:
> Seriously? They had us in Saints territory with
> 2min, 2 Timeouts and facing a 2nd and short (2nd
> and 1 if Camarillo doesn't try to get out of
> bounds or 2nd and 3 if he doesn't fling the ball
> out of bounds and take the penalty). I'll take
> coaching like that anytime.
RESPONSE: Err.... it seems like it was A LITTLE TOO GOOD FOR OUR OWN GOOD. At that pace, we were sure to leave the Saints about 1 minute and some small change on the clock. JUST ENOUGH TIME FOR A PASS TO JEREMY SHOCKEY.
ChyrenB wrote:
> > Besides, why in the hell are we in a "hurry up?"
>
> > Now I mean seriously WHY?
>
PHINSFAN2 wrote:
> Let's see...young QB in his 3rd start, anemic
> passing a game with WR's that are alergic to
> pigskin. 3:28 and 80 yards to go for winning TD.
> Your right...pound the ball..
RESPONSE:
You say that sarcastically but what if Ginn had done one of his "tip drill" bouncey bouncey's and they had taken the ball from us.
Duhhhhhhhh!!! People would be saying "Why in the hell weren't Ricky and Ronnie getting the ball with 3:28 left on the clock? That's too much damn time!"
Phinsfan2 Wrote:
>
> BTW...they ran 4 plays up to and including the one
> where Camarillo screwed up. TWO of them were no
> huddle. That's hardly a crazed hurry up
> situation.
RESPONSE: Wait a minute, Don't back out now. You said we were in a 2 minute drill. Oh, but I forgot, it's a 2 minute drill THAT IS NOT A HURRY UP AS OPPOSED TO THE 2 MINUTE DRILL THAT IS A HURRY UP.
Phinsfan2 wrote:
> You go shotgun in that situation because you
> aren't going to run the ball. You do it to give
> your young QB a better read of the defense and a
> chance to get rid of the ball quicker. It's
> really a no-brainer.
RESPONSE: Read the part above where I said that the Wolves were going to come out and interpret me as saying that we should not have passed and YOU JUST DID IT!
There was nothing wrong with us passing, there was nothing wrong with the shot gun formation but there was something wrong with being in the hurry-up offense!
Phinsfan2 wrote:
> You just wanted to pass it slower?
RESPONSE: Errrr... Is every two consecutive passes in the FIRST QUARTER done in a two-minute drill.
Come on, stop trying to divert the conversation. You coaching staff to whom you devote blind loyalty screwed up. ... Admit it!
Chyren B wrote:
> > BUT PASSING THE BALL AND A HURRY UP OFFENSE ARE
> > NOT ALWAYS THE SAME THING.
Phinsfan2 wrote:
> Again...two passes out of the no huddle. Two out
> of a standard huddle. Hardly a rushed and crazy
> scenario.
RESPONSE: Who admitted they were in a 2 minute drill?
ChyrenB wrote:
> >
> > By admitting that the team was in a hurry up
> > offense, you really make my point but you just
> > can't see it.
Phinsfan2 wrote:
> The problem is that for your suggestion to be
> correct it would have to be the case that a group
> of professional football players, specifically
> ours, are incapable of runing a no huddle/2 min
> offense and that our staff is at fault for using a
> strategy that our guys couldn't succeed in.
> That's crazy on several levels.
RESPONSE: We shouldn't have been in the damn 2 minute drill. How is it that you can't get that through your head?
ChyrenB wrote:
> > Sparano's an idiot. I have always thought so.
> He
> > even looks like an idiot.
>
PhinsFan2 wrote:
> I'd like to say that's a case of "the pot calling
> the kettle black"
RESPONSE: You and I go way back and I've always thought the same about You even before you became a moderator. Isn't it nice to have a mutual admiration society?
PhinsFan2 wrote:
>but his timeout at the end of
> the first half was as crazy as your theory that he
> put too much pressure on Camarillo and that forced
> him to throw the ball out of bounds and take a
> penalty.
RESPONSE: I discuss the timeout in a different post. No one said that he put pressure on Camarillo, I said he should not have had the team in a hurry up mode. He should have told the team, "We need to do two things. We need to score and we need to NOT SCORE TOO FAST." Had he done so, I doubt Camarillo would have felt the need to take such a desperate action.
ChyrenB wrote:
> > For some reason, he is too invested in his
> point
> > which is self-contradictory.
PhinsFan2 wrote:
> Excuse me? "Too invested" in what?
ANSWER: The coaching staff for some reason unknown to me.
ChyrenB wrote:
> > Funny enough, he ATTACKS the timeout which I
> think
> > is actually defensible.
> >
> > When they set up for the field goal I said to
> > myself, "I don't believe that for a second!
> It's
> > a trick play. They are going to snap the ball
> and
> > go for the touchdown! We better call timeout."
>
> > And that was BEFORE our coaches called timeout.
>
Phinsfan2 wrote:
> Let them go for the touchdown in that case.
> They'd have been doing us a favor. You'd have had
> our top goalline defensive unit on the field
> against an offense with no RB, no WR and a
> backfield of Mark Brunell and John Carney. So
> long as we don't sell out to try to block what was
> an extra point length kick there's no way they
> score on that play, ESPECIALLY since we were
> coming out of a booth review which was a free
> timeout to prepare for the various possible
> scenarios.
RESPONSE:
Yeah, but this is typical of your lack of logic. The very point in calling the timeout was to assure that the players DID NOT IN FACT "sell out" as they usually do on every field goal attempt as they very well SHOULD. But the point of the timeout was to tell them to watch the fake. If they would then line up to ram the ball (as they did) then it would have been better than to have been tricked out of victory with that fake field goal.
PhinsFans2 wrote:
> Yeah, it was a bad timeout. He should have know
> during the booth review that if it was a TD they
> were kicking an extra point. If it was not a TD
> they would be kicking a gimme FG and would have to
> rush to do it in 5 seconds. If they ran out
> their offensive unit it would be a sneak because
> they wouldnt have time to do anything else.
> Thats not complicated.
RESPONSE: Where in the hell do you get the notion that teams run FAKE FIELD GOALS WITH THEIR REGULAR OFFENSE UNIT????????
PhinsFan2 wrote:
Either way you run out
> your goaline defense and you play for the fake FG
> or the QB sneak and you give them the kick. No
> timeout needed. It was a mistake to give them a
> chance to re-think their options.
RESPONSE: You need to alert your team to watch for the fake. There was not enough time to do that.