You must have misunderstood what I said. I was admitting that Joe Flacco doesn't have high-caliber stats due to the fact that 1. he is a rookie and 2. he is in a primarily running offense.

Enough of the sophomore slump argument. If that's all you have, you have nothing.

Not again people telling me Ray isn't the player he once was! I've been hearing this for years and people don't understand that he is a manchild. If you tell me that Ray isn't the player he once was, than neither is Jason Taylor.

We can't be much worse. We have a rookie quarterback who was expected to fail and was able to be the first rookie quarterback to win to road playoff games. He might not have been the star in those games but he did succeed. If he is able to compete at that level as a rookie, the sky is the limit for what he can do in the future.

And if you say that all Flacco does is not lose games, that's exactly what Chad does. He just throws underneath constantly and there's nothing wrong with that but you can't criticize my quarterback when yours does that same thing.

I never knew that he finished second in voting yet it's hard to believe that he finished ahead of Brees who was 15 yards away from breaking the record for most passing yards in a season or Adrian Peterson who is clearly the only offensive threat on the minnesota vikings.

wasn't pennington the comeback player of the year

i did not know of mvp however...

sorry ickie182 i hope we didnt take away from your post

Cam Wake, as I said earlier has tremendous potentially and I wish him the best

Hey, Flacco did a great job last year. Not many rookies can come in be successful in the NFL. He and Ryan were the first in many years.

I'm not saying Flacco can't win games but just that the coaches had him on a tight leash last year and rightfully so. He should be better this year with a better knowledge of the offense and I expect they let him air it out more with that cannon he's got.

The fact that Pennington is not blessed with a rocket arm is just more of a testament to his overall skill set.

Everyone wants to say that all Chad does is throw underneath and can't get the ball down field but that is just simply not true. He throws to whoever is open and doesn't force the ball. Hence the NFL record for turnovers. He played with very young WR's who haven't quite turned the corner but are getting ready to.

There are several strong armed QB's that had fewer long balls last year.

You just didn't see the long passes on highlight reels because our WR's struggled with TD's... because they did not hone the skills to get alot of separation last year or are just not that fast.

Two of our top WR's in 08 have average speed and were undrafted free agents. Ginn is young and still learning plus he was learning his 2nd offense in two years.

Chad was 10th in passes over 40 yards and 14th in passes over 20 so perception is not always reality.

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“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Eesti even though your wideouts may not be fast, pennington has always been know to not have a strong arm and not make too many deep throws. His accuracy is one of the best but the lack of arm strength can really limit him..which is why I honestly believe that he is not quite the game changer that flacco has the potential to become

not bashing pennington, not praising flacco, just stating that arm strength is quite valuable in the NFL

I agree that Pennington is a quarterback that plays mentally due to his physical restrictions and praise him for his success in a league where players like Jamarcus Russell are supposed to be stars due to the fact that they can throw 60 yards on their knees.

Theyre was that one highlight where Ginn caught in down the middle with two defenders on him. That was pretty remarkable.

Ginn clearly has break away speed and no offense to Pennington but it would be better if the dolphins had a quarterback that was able to take advantage of his speed.

Flacco is in the same situation but conversely he has a massive arm with no deep threat as WR.

Amen

Pennington does more with his physical ability than just about any player in the NFL and for that I give him kudos

Players like Jamarcus are such a waste with such physical traits

You say pennington has no deep threat target...doesn't ted ginn fit in there perfectly? It seems like ginn mostly runs quick routes so that pennington can get it to him with a quick, short, accurate pass that doesn't require too much arm strength. In this way I believe miamis offense can blossom into a real explosive and lethal one if they had a QB who could get ginn the ball deep.

Not only would this make teams respect the pass but it will make running the ball much easier for brown. Deep ball works wonders for teams and I believe it may be one thing that the dolphins are missing for this offense to truly reach its potential

Agreed dielan.

In addition, plays like screams and end-arounds to Ginn will give Miami an explosive component to their offense. He is clearly an excellent open-space runner as he returned kicks and punts during his days at Ohio state.

When you watch Boldin and the AZ cardinals play, it is clear that they want the ball in his hands and they will do anything they can to do so as he can make people miss in the open field and take it to the house. This was clear during the playoffs when, I forgot against who, but he received the ball on a drag route and score a TD. It was the play that he injured his hamstring if I remember correctly.

Miami must take plays out of the arizona's playbook and utilize Ginn the same way Arizona utilizes Boldin.

well as I stated before...Ginn was learning his 2nd offense in two years and was only a 2nd year player. It usually takes 3 years for a WR to break out which I believe Ginn will do this year.

I didn't say CP had no deep threat target but No, Ginn wasn't a huge deep threat last year because he was still learning about getting separation before the ball is thrown which is why he only caught 56 balls and had 2 TD's.

He is a fast player but did not have a lot of juke and shake. If he is open down field Chad will and can throw it to him. Chad may not be able to thread the needle like Marino used to but he can get it down field.

You are right about the fear of a deep threat but you will see that this year...his 3rd year. He has learned how to run a route and is learning more from CP by the day. I would project over 1,200 yards and 9 TD's from Ted this year.

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“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

I believe ginn can be utilized that way but unfortunately he is not quite strong enough

in my early post ( which was deleted) i spoke of ginn as a bust draft pick..Unless he shows me something spectacular soon, I don't believe he can live up to his 9th overall hype. Hes just simply a speedster, his routes aren't too sharp and isn't big enough to go over the middle

Maybe a start slot receiver, kind of like a wes welker but he will never truly be a #1 receiver



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2009 07:33PM by vengeance bird.

There are many many WR's that do not break out until their 3rd year and Ginns numbers are as good or better thru his first two years.

Steve Smith, Roddy White...etc

You cannot call a WR a bust without seeing what he does in his 3rd year.

As a Falcon fan you should know this from watching White.

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“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

and Ginn is not a slot receiver. successful slot guys are either very quick with good hands (Welker) or very big with good hands and can go over the middle. TG is a Flanker.

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“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Esti you need help brother. Look Raven and Falcon fans? lol irony. Anyways, you guys got decent teams, but the problem is your division, you both got teams that will put you guys in wildcard or non playoff contention. Miami has NE.We beat them or we dont make playoffs simple.The wildcat oh yes the "gimick" was stuffed by baltimore last year, because your defense was extremely awsome at stuffing 8 in the box, which resulted in our "gimick" which we ran out of 94 percent of the time not much yardage. This year having a pat white who basicaly ran a wildcat offense in college, "spread" with ronnie brown, and ricky! Teams will either double up on our three wideouts, leaving 6 or 7 in the box. Now white has 4 big options, run, hand off to Brown, Williams, or pass. If your team continous to stack 8 in the box it will leave 3 one on one match ups with a VERY fast Ginn and company. Either way you cut it this year, no one will be very effictive at stoping it. Now with a much improved 0 line this year, MUCH better defense,and better everything!! The Miami Dolphins will not be stopped! When the season ends im going to want to read on this site "Thunder you where right!" Im just going to say its ok this just wasnt your year.

seriously u think ginn can produce 1200 yards...come on

I'm sorry but those are top 10 wr numbers and ginn doesn't quite fit the bill

I see him getting around 800 yards and 4 TDs..which aren't bad numbers

Now from what I've read in this thread...

Do you truly believe chad pen has the arm strength to air it out and beat teams through the air?
He simply isn't that caliber quarterback, sure hes accurate and will manage a game for you while ronnie brown can run wild ( not from the wildcat, ill get to that later) but he wont win the game on his own
Once again I'm not bashing the man, just saying hes not the elite level QB some of you claim he is.

Now, the wildcat
I still have no idea why it is so hyped upped..
As some other poster explained earlier it was used before but without much success after a few games. It is a system designed for teams to utilize their talented backs instead of relying on their quarterback, now chad pen isn't some clown at QB but when you're using your RB at the quarterback spot it almost seems like a lack of trust in your QB. Thinking that your back will strike more fear to your opponents than what should be your leader as quarterback...it seems wrong to me

Now that teams have seen this wildcat formation used in almost every game, you have to believe that every team will have a gameplan ready to stop it. Teams will simply use Rex Ryans blueprint in the playoff and the wildcat will be shutdown. I do not see how it will be much of a factor unless Pat White can add a new element to that

He must prove it first though and til then, I believe the wildcat will be shut down this upcoming season.

See you guys opening night...

Well your ignorance on the "WILDCAT" is why you cant understand it. The wildcat sets up the defense to account every player on the offense, unlike a regular set, so instead of a 11/10 DEF.OFF.of a regular set, the wildcat, or single wing back spread." Makes it a 11.11. which makes it even. Last year teams knew we would most likely run out of the "gimick" as you put it. This year if your team stacks 8 defenders in the "box" it will leave 3 one on one matchups with wr's BAD IDEA!!!!! so pat white a QB will throw long td's all day to open Ginn untill your team desides to take a saftey or two away from the box to double up coverage leaving 6 or 7 in the box, and then White will run it or hand it off for a 5 plus yard gain. Does that make it easier to understand why everyone is so WOW about having Pat White? Not to mention our regular offensive sets~!!

vengeance bird, I have to say that you may sort of under estimate the wildcat

with pat white I believe it can be very effective but not quite to the point that miami thunder was pointing out

were all jsut speculating here but well see how it turns out
I'm sure the falcs will have something ready for you

White is a better version of Vick, and look what just Vick did? Ran the ball thats it he was horrible at passing. White much better passer and has just a strong an arm, same speed and running ability. Couple that with Ronnie and Ricky and a Much better team from top down. Good luck YOUR TEAM IS REEEALLLYYY going to need it. P.S. do us a favor? After our team destroy's yours! please dont come back on here unless you appologize for your ignorance about our team, and worry about your own team issues. Appreciate the interest though!!! "MAKES FOR MIGHTY FINE CHITTER CHATTER!"

If I'm an opposing team, I treat the wildcat with pat white exactly how teams treated michael vick and the falcons back in the day

you let the qb beat you with his arm, keep him in the pocket and rattle him up. Hes guaranteed to throw a pick or two under the pressure. All the while containing the run with the same pressure. Sure White will beat teams with the pass occasionally but simply put, that is not his forte. He is not a passing QB, neither was vick. Theses guys are exceptional athletes at the QB position.

Either White will prove me wrong and develop into a good passing QB and maintain his running ability as a threat in the wilcat or as vengeance bird said, the wildcat will be rendered ineffective.

Now if white did say develop into a passer and runner, then why even bother with the wildcat? You essentially have the perfect QB in front of you, one that the NFL has never seen...which is exactly why I doubt it will happen

Don't wanna be the pessimist but someone had to...at least it's from an outsiders perspective

Miamithunder, what you just said was absolutely ridiculous.

The fact that you say that we are in trouble because of our divisions is the most hypocritical thing I've heard all week. The pats went 11-5 with a career backup. A guy who didn't even start in college. Trust me, I hate the pats just as much as the next guy BUT COME ON. The steelers were better than us by 1 game and it was on that Ed Coleman call on the Holmes TD.

In general, you all think that Pat White will literally help you guys go 16-0. Look, he's still a rookie quarterback. Pat White is a rookie Michael Vick. People will play the wildcat the same way they played Michael Vick. Make a linebacker spy the quarterback, make sure your DE hold the pocket and there you go, Pat White is stuck, unable to run and forced to throw. I made the defensive gameplan in 1 minute with no experience in defensive schemes besides madden video games. Pretty amazing right.

Like you said the wildcat will become the spread. WOW YOU MUST BE THE FIRST PERSON TO THINK ABOUT BRINGING THE SPEAD OR THE OPTION GAME TO THE NFL. Theres a reason offenses don't run these schemes. They don't work in the NFL. Linebackers are too fast and too big. Ray Lewis broke Mendenhall's arm with one literally bone crushing hit. He's 225 pounds. Pat White is 197. Do the math. There's a reason quarterbacks wear those red jerseys to make sure they don't get hit in training camp.

Your o-line is better but you lost your best cornerback in Andre Goodman and don't you dare tell me that Vontae Davis is replacing him.

Ill eat any crow that comes my way but I doubt it happens week 1

Ginn could maybe be like White but White did show promise in each of his years. He had the speed, strength and had the ability to get open, he didnt know how to catch til his third year for some reason. Once he did he broke out

I do not see this in Ginn. He may be explosive at times but he does not consistently create seperation or cant make a catch over the middle

which is why I dont put him in the same class as roddy

sorry

You right Eric Green is replacing him, Vontae in due time. Well you make a solid point, but there is just two things missing from your evaluation, indeed if the wildcat does not work like you and the rest of the haters believe, Ronnie Brown, Ricky Williams, With pat white? Vick had himself, horrible running game besides him, horrible WR play ok ALL gay crumpler, and a horrible defense? Yeah you could do what you would with just one player to worry about? different when you got three! Your team didnt have a 4.2 running ginn, and White had a 64. percent completion in college what did Vick have? 58 as a pro lmao JOKE! COME SEPTEMBER 13 YOU BETTER BE ON THIS SITE !!!!! ALLL DAY!

If you think Pat White will just be too fast on the runs and the linebackers just won't be able to stop him, lemme drop some knowledge on you.

Pat White ran a 4.55 40-yard dash.

Aaron Curry ran a 4.56
Demarcus Ware ran a 4.56
Tavares Gooden ran a 4.53 (who's that? He's Ray Lewis's backup)

He won't outrun NFL linebackers. He won't out run NFL cornerbacks or safeties.

Oh and here's another in case you don't believe me.

Patrick Willis ran a 4.38

Because EITHER THE FALCONS OR DOLPHINS IS GOING TO LOOSE, AND TRASH TALKING IS GOING TO START AND NEVER FINISH SO YOU BETTER BE ON, I HAVE NO PROBLEM TAKING IT LIKE A MAN IF MY TEAM LOOSES, BUT I JUST DONT SEE HOW? you have 1 half WR'S, and gonzalez! And thats if White shows up lol. Our team has no problem stuffing the run, making your QB beat us with his arm, but we will be controlling the clock because your defense cant stop the run. 27-13 Miami over Atlanta!

YOUR A JOKE. NO RUNNING GAME! THEY HAD WARRICK DUNN AND JERIOUS NORWOOD. THEY LED THE LEAGUE IN RUSHING EVERY SINGLE YEAR. ENOUGH WITH THE HOMER COMMENTS.

Miami Thunder,

Let me jsut say this

Mike Vick was the #1 rated QB, #1 rated player and the #1 overall pick
Pat White was thought to have a positional change to WR, wasn't even to be considered in the first 2 rounds, and was somewhat of a reach in the 2nd round

How on earth can you compare these two?


NO other run game?
We had dunn, norwood and a zone blocking scheme built solely for the run game. I say in added talent, both backfields are almost equal in talent considering Mike Vick's ability

How did that falcons team do?
WE NEVER MADE THE PLAYOFFS

good luck with the scheme
I much prefer traditional pro style offenses

Vick led most of the yards! Dont like the comments go to a falcons site! NOBODY ASK BUMS to come here and chat. I dont go to Falcons sites and tell them why there team wont make it pass 9.7. Which trust me it wont!

WARRICK DUNN HAS RUSHED FOR MORE THAN 10 000 YARDS. DO SOME RESEARCH.

YOU dont know who your chatting with! IM THE POSTER CHILD FOR ILLITERATCY!!! And will make you go BONKERS for trying to say anything negative about this sites team! Im the bulldog poster who fiercly fights for our guys to come on and belly bump! THE NUMBER ONE STUNNA!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2009 08:29PM by MiamiThunder.

you guys will run all over us?
really? I mean come on...why didn't legit running teams full out run all over us last year?

As in carolina, minnesota, etc...

Add in Jerry in the middle and I can't say I'm too afraid

And besides Matt Ryan will pick your secondary apart, aswell as turner just pounding away at your "godly" defense

Just as you can't see us winning
I Have no idea how I can see you guys winning

Homer pride? I don't think so, the falcons are the better team

Annnnnnnd...we're at home
CASE CLOSED