If Suh is on the team, not only does he make 2 or 3 game changing plays within the course of those 3 losses,

he probably frees up Wake, Vernon, or his pressure forces a big play from Reshad Jones.

He adds multiple different game changing plays & allows other to make some as well.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

JoeFootball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Aqua&Orange Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Stats don't show the full picture of impact.
> > >
> > > But whatever, I'm on to a different point.
> > >
> > > The bottom line with Suh is this:
> > >
> > > The Phins lost 3 games in 2014 in the very
> las
> > > seconds of those games. With Suh, the Phins
> are
> > > 3-0 in those games.
> >
> > That's a major stretch. We lost those games
> on
> > last second drives. Pass rushing isn't Suh's
> > specialty. Assuming that he stops all three
> of
> > those drives by his presence on the field is
> > fantasy.
>
> I don't know about that. Suh is not better than
> Watt PERIOD!
>
> It's also more likely than not than fantasy that
> by replacing Odrick with Suh, we don't let those
> teams run the ball on us AND also throw in a sack
> or two for Suh and Wake for even more impact in
> the passing game...maybe an interception on a
> pressure throw.
>
> Pass rushing is not Suh's specialty? I'm not sure
> what that means exactly but if you mean he is
> better against the run then OK. Suh is still an
> elite pass rushing 4-3 DT.
>
> Warren Sapp (pass rush was his specialty) had 29.5
> sacks over his first 4 years. McCoy had 18.5. John
> Randle had 34.5.
>
> Suh had 27.5. That's right among the best at his
> position.
>
> > > Simply put, the Dolphins are an 11 or 12 win
> > team
> > > with Suh & in the playoffs.
> > >
> > > Is that worth his contract for you? I know my
> > > answer.
> >
> >
> > I think he makes us a better team but he won't
> be
> > joining last years defense. We lose Odrick,
> > Wheeler, Ellerbe, and probably Starks.
>
> Ellerbe wasn't there and losing him is addition by
> subtraction. Wheeler is replaced by any number of
> people....Misi...
> Suh/Mitchell > Odrick/Starks. Only one of those
> players (as of today) commands a CONSTANT double
> team and can still consistently beat that double
> team.
>
> >
> > At the end of the day, I'd like to sign him.
> But
> > i'm not interested in overpaying for him. He's
> > not a "got to have him at all costs" type
> player.
> >
> > JJ Watt is.
>
> If you put it that way....no one is. Not even
> Watt.
>
> >
> > If I can get him for a few bucks more than
> McCoy
> > got then I'm interested. If I have to go
> beyond
> > that, I'm not.
> >
> > But that's me.
>
> McCoy is in the same league as Suh. No doubt...
> but he hasn't produced the same impact. He has
> missed 16 games in 5 years. Suh has missed only 2
> and McCoy isn't nearly as good vs the run.
>
> McCoy is also not available. Not very often does a
> FA like this come along. Teams lock up JJ Watt and
> Gerald McCoy....and Suh, unless they are cap
> screwed.
>
> That drives the price up a bit....availability.
>
> Suh should get somewhere between the two if all
> things were fair....but neither of those two made
> it to FA.
>
> I'm torn but very intrigued...it's hard to not get
> excited about the possibilities.


All good points Joe.

having Suh in the lineup last year changes how every game is played. Perhaps we go undefeated and never give up a point the whole season with Suh in the lineup...
But if we are talking about stopping the final drives that cost us the 3 games A&O is referring to, it is pure speculation that we win all three of those games with Suh in the lineup.



As for the contract value let me put it this way. I'm not giving Suh the biggest non QB contract in history but I'd do that for Watt every day and twice on Sunday's.


As for MCCoy, I think he's overpaid. But his contract is the benchmark. Suh is better than him and not as good as Watt. Ergo, I'll be willing to make Suh the highest paid DT but I'm not willing to pay him more than the JJ Watt contract. He's not as good as Watt. But that's me. The fact is that when you acquire players in FA you over pay for them. Just look at every FA we've signed in the last decade.

Still, its one thing to over pay for Ellerbe or Wheeler as they eat up a smaller % of your cap. If you have to part ways with them, it doesn't cripple your cap. Its a different animal altogether to over pay for a guy who is an ENORMOUS risk from a character stand point and who doesn't produce prodigious numbers of game changing plays (turnovers, sacks, etc).

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Suh is on the team, not only does he make 2 or
> 3 game changing plays within the course of those 3
> losses,
>
> he probably frees up Wake, Vernon, or his pressure
> forces a big play from Reshad Jones.
>
> He adds multiple different game changing plays &
> allows other to make some as well.


Joe is right. If Suh is on that team he changes the way the game is played, and possibly its outcome, from the 1st snap. We may never have been in a position to have to stop last minute drives to win those games.

Of course, if he's in the game, teams call different plays so perhaps teams abandon the run sooner and throw more often. Perhaps they score more points and we have to play catchup and can't.

Perhaps.



Its all speculation.

Yes, he makes the team better. But that in no way guarantees we turn those 3 L's into W's. It just changes the way they play out. To say we win those games with him is speculation merely to justify your stance on signing him.


Detroit didn't go undefeated with him on the field and they didn't win a playoff game.

To state as fact that he would have single handedly turned 3 of our losses into wins is just wrong. Heck, anyone of the many penalties/suspensions he's had could just as easily turned some of our W's into L's.

He's an excellent player.

We'd be better with him.

But he's not Superman, he's not Reggie White, he's not JJ Watt.

JoeFootball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> having Suh in the lineup last year changes how
> every game is played. Perhaps we go undefeated and
> never give up a point the whole season with Suh in
> the lineup...
> But if we are talking about stopping the final
> drives that cost us the 3 games A&O is referring
> to, it is pure speculation that we win all three
> of those games with Suh in the lineup.
>
> You say speculate (and of course that's all anyone
> can do when we are talking about rewriting
> history) but as far as making a difference on THIS
> defense, it's a projection based on an educated
> guess BASED on history, which is the best
> indicator of the future, IMO.
>
> AS far as paying a non QB 17 mil a year....It's a
> little safer than paying Jay Cutler 18 mil, Carson
> Palmer 16.5 or even Sam Bradford, 14 mil.

Hey, I think Suh makes us a playoff team if he was on this years squad. My issue is with making statements that he stops the 3 game wining drives we gave up.

As for him being worth more than an average starting QB....not so much.

Palmer had the Cardinals as the #1 seed going with 1 month left in the season at the tender age of 35.

What type of production do you think you will get from Suh when he's 33 or 34 in the last two years of his deal?

He won't be worth anywhere near the $18+m he'll be on the books for if he gets 110-120m over 6 years with 55-60 guaranteed.

I don't mind paying him as the highest DT in the league but I'm not locking myself in for that long with that much guaranteed money. Not only isn't he worth it, he's a ticking timebomb from a character perspective.


I'd rather have (as you suggested) Ngata, Paea and an Olineman.

It will be better then the roughly 19 million we had tied up Ellerbe, Wheeler and Finnegan... Or just take out finnegan and the roughly 14 million that went into Ellerbe and Wheeler... IMO I would trade that for Suhs money any day of the week...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Ellerbe, Wheeler and Finnegan


3 total busts...

I would take Suh. My bottom line. Not knocking anyones poster boy but Suh w/ our defensive ends and Grimes at one corner would help us more than Watts. He would make us a playoff team.

Truth,

A DE doesn't impact all 3 levels of the defense does as much as a DT does.

JJ Watt, playing DE, has never prevented an OG and/or C from getting their pads on the MLB. Never. Ever. Never. Ever, never, ever ever.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2015 10:34AM by Aqua&Orange.

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth,
>
> A DE doesn't impact all 3 levels of the defense
> does as much as a DT does.
>
> JJ Watt, playing DE, has never prevented an OG
> and/or C from getting their pads on the MLB.
> Never. Ever. Never. Ever, never, ever ever.

A&O...that's just not true buddy.

An elite DE like Watts or Reggie White etc gets double teamed by an OT and OG on a regular basis. Sure teams can use a TE or RB to help out instead of an OG if they want, but there are also times they'll use all three to get the job done.

Great defensive lineman occupy multiple blockers most of the time. It doesn't matter where they lineup. That's what makes them great.

Suh is a great player. He's just not JJ Watt, and he never will be. There's nothing wrong with that.

Watt can and has played inside. When he does he demands double teams from interior lineman as well. He's like Reggie White in that he can play DT or DE and command the attention of multiple offensive players.

Plus if JJ SWAT lines up inside, he closes down the middle of the field instead of just one side. He's also a CB..sort of. He is 6'6 and has a wing span of 6'9 so standing flat footed he makes you throw the ball at least 9 ft from release...LOL



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2015 02:13PM by JoeFootball.

Suh is a great player. He's just not JJ Watt, and he never will be. There's nothing wrong with that.

That's true.

JJ Watts is a great player. He's just not Suh, and he never will be. There's nothing wrong with that.

That's true.

thinking about Watts 20.5 sacks in 2014. An impressive number.

6 came against playoff teams.
4 of the 6 came against the Colts who shuffled their line a lot in 2014
0 against Dallas
0 against Cincy
1 against Baltimore
1 against Pitt

1.5 Came against teams w/ winning records
0 Buff
1.5 Philly

So 13 came against losing teams including
6 against Jax 2 games
4 against TN 2 games

hmm 14 Sacks in an offensive tackle weak afc south.

oh yeah 3 more
1 vs WAS - Skins must have some good tackles
1 vs NY Giants - ditto
1 vs the Browns - OK J Thomas is 30 and an all pro and Watts is superman