THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> berkeley223 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > if ross owns sun life stadium, and it's major
> > tenant leaves, doesn't that insanely devalue
> the
> > property he owns? someone explain how we can
> take
> > this threat at face value?
>
>
> Simple.
>
> Old stadiums can be bulldozed and turned into
> other profitable real estate ventures. The guy
> has made $4.5B doing just that, right?
>
> Secondly, there are MANY ways a new city could
> offset his "loss" on his current property. They
> could sell him some property cheap, or build a new
> stadium and lease it to him for $1 a year...or
> partner up with him on the costs...or give him tax
> breaks...etc...etc...etc.
>
>
> There's more than one way to skin a cat.
>
>
> The property he owns now is depreciating. Its
> going to depreciate even faster if its not
> upgraded or modernized. At some point in time it
> becomes more profitable to explore other options
> than to stay married to a loser. And make no
> mistake, if nobody is upgrading that 28 year old
> facility, its going to become a loser real fast.
>
> Look, its no easy thing to move a team to another
> city. I'm sure nearly all owners would prefer to
> stay where they are. besides, there just aren't
> that many great opportunities out there. Take
> LA off the table and you'd be hard pressed to find
> a suitable area of the country that's a better
> opportunity than Miami.
>
> But a good deal is a good deal. If someone
> offers him, or a new owner, a better deal than
> what he has now he's going to look at it.
>
> Plenty of cities have funded stadium projects with
> sweetheart leases to lure pro sports franchises.
> It's nothing new.
>
> If the Jets/Giants can move from the Bronx, to
> Queens, to NJ and almost to Manhattan its no
> stretch for another area of S. Florida to decide
> they want the prestige and money that comes with
> the Dolphins AND the money from Super Bowls and
> NCAA bowl games.


the stadium is in the middle of nowhere. you knock it down, there is nothing you can put up that would be remotely as valuable (I mean, if they can't put anything in the area worth a damn with a draw like the stadium there now, what do you think the area will be like if it's "bulldozed" down)?

Ross just wants free upgrades to his stadium so that when he sells in 5-10 years, and he gets more $$ for the stadium and the team. Simple as that. Dee/Ross's threats are so empty and absurd as to be insulting.
The NFL will never let anyone move the team (it doesn't want to lose it's "in" to the latin american market). And if the politians in the state of FLA didn't support these relatively minor renovations, what makes you think in 3 years they will OK building a gleaming new stadium in Palm Beach? Ross just needs to man up and come up with a Plan B, and quit sulking.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > berkeley223 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > if ross owns sun life stadium, and it's major
> > > tenant leaves, doesn't that insanely devalue
> > the
> > > property he owns? someone explain how we can
> > take
> > > this threat at face value?
> >
> >
> > Simple.
> >
> > Old stadiums can be bulldozed and turned into
> > other profitable real estate ventures. The
> guy
> > has made $4.5B doing just that, right?
> >
> > Secondly, there are MANY ways a new city could
> > offset his "loss" on his current property.
> They
> > could sell him some property cheap, or build a
> new
> > stadium and lease it to him for $1 a year...or
> > partner up with him on the costs...or give him
> tax
> > breaks...etc...etc...etc.
> >
> >
> > There's more than one way to skin a cat.
> >
> >
> > The property he owns now is depreciating. Its
> > going to depreciate even faster if its not
> > upgraded or modernized. At some point in time
> it
> > becomes more profitable to explore other
> options
> > than to stay married to a loser. And make no
> > mistake, if nobody is upgrading that 28 year
> old
> > facility, its going to become a loser real
> fast.
> >
> > Look, its no easy thing to move a team to
> another
> > city. I'm sure nearly all owners would prefer
> to
> > stay where they are. besides, there just
> aren't
> > that many great opportunities out there.
> Take
> > LA off the table and you'd be hard pressed to
> find
> > a suitable area of the country that's a better
> > opportunity than Miami.
> >
> > But a good deal is a good deal. If someone
> > offers him, or a new owner, a better deal than
> > what he has now he's going to look at it.
> >
> > Plenty of cities have funded stadium projects
> with
> > sweetheart leases to lure pro sports franchises.
>
> > It's nothing new.
> >
> > If the Jets/Giants can move from the Bronx, to
> > Queens, to NJ and almost to Manhattan its no
> > stretch for another area of S. Florida to
> decide
> > they want the prestige and money that comes
> with
> > the Dolphins AND the money from Super Bowls and
> > NCAA bowl games.



>
>
> the stadium is in the middle of nowhere.


There are very few places in the history of S. Florida that haven't had the very same thing said about them at one point in time.





> you knock
> it down, there is nothing you can put up that
> would be remotely as valuable (I mean, if they
> can't put anything in the area worth a damn with a
> draw like the stadium there now, what do you think
> the area will be like if it's "bulldozed" down)?



Why does it have to be "as valuable"? If he's moving the team, any money he gets out of that property by selling it or developing it is gravy. Its additional profit on top of an already profitable move to another location.




>
> Ross just wants free upgrades to his stadium so
> that when he sells in 5-10 years, and he gets more
> $$ for the stadium and the team. Simple as that.
> Dee/Ross's threats are so empty and absurd as to
> be insulting.


If he was looking for full funding for the project, I'd agree. but he was going to pay for 65% of the bill out of his pocket.

All he was looking for was for the local community to kick in the costs for the upgrades the NFL required to keep sending Super Bowls to the area.

Ross makes NO MONEY off Super Bowls. NONE. Its a community event. They get the community and the NFL get the financial benefit.

Why shouldn't they kick in for borrowing, and profiting from, the use of something that belongs to Ross?

If I owned a vacation house, and I let you rent it to your friends for the summer, shouldn't you be involved in the upkeep?


> The NFL will never let anyone move the team (it
> doesn't want to lose it's "in" to the latin
> american market).


The NFL let one of its charter members, the Cleveland Browns move to Baltimore. They let another charter member move to Indianapolis. They let the Raiders and the Rams vacate the 2nd largest TV market in the country when local TV rights were as important to them as their national deals.

If you think they won't let the Fins move to LA, or to Palm Beach you are deluding yourself. In fact, thanks to the Al Davis lawsuit that allowed him to move the first time, they can't do anything to stop it.

The NFL cares about one thing: MONEY. And not having a team in LA is costing them more money than losing out on the Cuban market, once the embargo ends, ever could.

Besides, if the fins jumped to LA in 5 years there would be a few franchise like Buffalo, Jax, etc who would look to fill the void in S.Florida.



> And if the politians in the
> state of FLA didn't support these relatively minor
> renovations, what makes you think in 3 years they
> will OK building a gleaming new stadium in Palm
> Beach? Ross just needs to man up and come up with
> a Plan B, and quit sulking.


There are things that can be down by a city/county without state approval. This time around, they wouldn't do it. they wanted it to be voted on by the people. That's a different process. That also didn't work.

Virtually every team in the NFL has a facility built with 25-75% public funds, some even more. And very few of them have to let that property be used, free of charge, to host Super Bowls.

If S.Florida loses the Fins to LA and they want a team there to replace them, they will either step up to the plate and create a deal for an owner that makes it worth moving his team there (like Cleveland did) or they will have no football.

If the NFL can live without a team in LA for the last 15+ years, they can certainly live without one in America's 16th largest media market (Miami).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 09:20AM by THE Truth.

He has a right to bitch a little bit when he was just bamboozled by a politician for $4,000,000.00.

I don't care how rich you are....that's a lot of money.

I would not be upset to move the stadium from where it is now.....not exactly a great neighborhood.

The only good thing in the vicinity is Tootsie's Cabaret and that's not even that close.

and I would have to think that plan "B" involves trashing the smug speaker to some extent.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 09:12AM by eesti.

Your right. The Politicians in the State were NOT on board. So Ross has to set up his leverage now for the future so they ARE on board next time. Ross may be a lot of things , but stupid isn't one of them. The Dolphins stadium is one of the only privately owned and funded in the NFL. The upgrades to his stadium would have brought many future events that would have lined the pockets of many people for yrs to come. He has options. Ross did all the work. He made the investment and was going to personally fund more then half of the renovations. He made personal guarantees to the state and the people that he would cover the rest if the Superbowls didn't come.

He just wanted the people who were going to profit off of him to also invest some time and share the expense. On Top of that , he was willing to cover it all if the people voted against it.

I can't believe your making me defend Steve Ross! But the state dropped the ball and Mr Ross needs to let them know its in their best interest not to do it again.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

I am not saying Ross is not right to be pissed by how it played out. Nor am I saying that I disagree with the plan to upgrade the stadium (I'd have voted for it if I still lived down there). I'm just saying his petulant reaction to what's happened is counterproductive, and his threats to move the team are totally empty. IMO it is never gonna happen. Baltimore and Cleveland are not the same kind of market Miami is in terms of TV and "international" appeal (which the NFL is huge on). If the phins vacate So Fla the NFL is losing out on a lot more than what they lost (for a short time) in Indy and Bal. Plus if a team is going to move to LA, there are way better candidates the NFL wouldn't really care about (Jax, Buf, SD, etc).

Plus it is not "gravy" to bulldoze a multimillion doller asset and replace it with something worth a fraction of that amount. Ross may be really really rich, but he's not THAT rich, if you get me.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He has a right to bitch a little bit when he was
> just bamboozled by a politician for
> $4,000,000.00.
>
> I don't care how rich you are....that's a lot of
> money.
>
> I would not be upset to move the stadium from
> where it is now.....not exactly a great
> neighborhood.
>
> The only good thing in the vicinity is Tootsie's
> Cabaret and that's not even that close.
>
> and I would have to think that plan "B" involves
> trashing the smug speaker to some extent.


eesti, I doubt he's all that upset about the $4MILL he threw away. I think he's more upset about the fact that some politician pulled the rug out from under him and made him look bad publicly and within the NFL owners club.

He can hang onto the team for 3-5 more years without putting a penny into the facilities and let the next owner deal with the issue of staying put or looking for a better deal/location.

If he rebuilds the team over that time period he'll probably be able to offset the loss in the value of the stadium with an increase in the value of a winning team. That should allow him to do ok when he sells the franchise.

If they lose over that span, he'll just be looking for an exit and won't really care how much he loses. he'll just want out.

I think Ross is actually trying to put together a winning franchise , not just a winning business like Wayne Huizinga did . he just wants the people wo share in his profit to help out a little. AND he offered to guarantee that they will profit or he would cover the entire expense. AND he offered to let the people make the decision.

Ross has Options. I don't see a problem with letting them know it.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Ross is actually trying to put together a
> winning franchise , not just a winning business
> like Wayne Huizinga did . he just wants the people
> wo share in his profit to help out a little. AND
> he offered to guarantee that they will profit or
> he would cover the entire expense. AND he offered
> to let the people make the decision.



How many owners have done that?



>
> Ross has Options. I don't see a problem with
> letting them know it.


I think he's just being honest. I suppose there are some fans who would prefer him to just lie to them and tell them everything is OK and that the failure to get this deal done has no potential impact on the franchise forever, and ever.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 12:28PM by THE Truth.

I can't believe I'm again defending Ross.........

But he never said he was moving anything. He merely stated that he wanted to get a long term deal done that guaranteed the Dolphins would be in Miami for the next 30 yr sor so. He stated that at 73 he won't be around that much longer and the Tea will eventually go into others hands. He wanted a deal done so that new owners would have to abide by it. All he said was, Now nothing is concrete and anything could happen after him. Why should South Florida gamble on a new owner? PLUS give away great business opportunities like future Superbowls? Makes no sense at all.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> berkeley223 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am not saying Ross is not right to be pissed
> by
> > how it played out. Nor am I saying that I
> disagree
> > with the plan to upgrade the stadium (I'd have
> > voted for it if I still lived down there). I'm
> > just saying his petulant reaction to what's
> > happened is counterproductive, and his threats
> to
> > move the team are totally empty.
>
>
> Where did he threaten to move the team?
>
> Ross has said time and time again he has ZERO
> intention of leaving S. Florida while he's the
> owner.
>
> All he's done, through Dee, is state the obvious.
> That the proposed deal would have locked the Fins
> into Miami/Dade for another 30 years.
>
> That the fact that there is no deal now means
> there is the possibility that under new ownership
> the team could move.
>
>
> That's not a threat. Its a statement of fact.
>
>
> > IMO it is never
> > gonna happen. Baltimore and Cleveland are not
> the
> > same kind of market Miami is in terms of TV and
> > "international" appeal (which the NFL is huge
> on).
> > If the phins vacate So Fla the NFL is losing
> out
> > on a lot more than what they lost (for a short
> > time) in Indy and Bal. Plus if a team is going
> to
> > move to LA, there are way better candidates the
> > NFL wouldn't really care about (Jax, Buf, SD,
> > etc).
>
>
>
> I think you are greatly exaggerating the
> "international appeal" of the Dolphins.
>
> Dallas and San Diego are far more poplular in
> Mexico already and that is the market in latin and
> S. America that matter first a nd foremost.
>
> When it comes to Europe, we are just another
> franchise. 1 of 32.
>
>
>
> >
> > Plus it is not "gravy" to bulldoze a
> multimillion
> > doller asset and replace it with something worth
> a
> > fraction of that amount. Ross may be really
> really
> > rich, but he's not THAT rich, if you get me.
>
>
> You are missing the point Berk. Its part of an
> equation.
>
> Paid $1.1 Billion for team and facilities.
>
> Current equation: Team is worth $800m + facility
> worth $200m. (and declining daily) net result is
> that his investment is worth $1B...that the
> facility is already declined in value by $.1B in
> the 3 years since he bought the team.
>
>
> Potential new equation if team moves to LA under
> new owner:
>
> Team worth $800m, - $200m value of bulldozed
> stadium, + new facility, Property, tax breaks, etc
> in LA (500m-1+...The net impact to the overall
> asset after a move like that is its now worth
> $1.1-1.6B...instead of 1B and declining. ON top
> of that, any sale of, or profit from developing
> the land where the old stadium stood would be
> additional profit or "gravy".
>
>
> It all comes down to whether the deal in the now
> location (LA or wherever) offsets the loss in the
> present location enough to make it worthwhile.
>
> There aren't many places left in the country that
> could offer a deal like that, but LA is certainly
> one of them.
>
> The stadium in Santa Clara, that we are about to
> lose Super Bowl L to, cost $1.2B.
>
> The Stadiums the Cowboys and Jets/Giants built
> cost $1.5B each.
>
> A new facility in LA would cost and be valued at
> least that much. If they gave him just 50%
> ownership in that facility he'd be adding $750M in
> value to his asset while writing off the $200M his
> property in Miami is presently worth. Any new
> owner without roots in the area would have to be a
> moron NOT to make that move.


having his minion (Dee) say (1) future of team in Miami is "dire" (puh-lease) and (2) Ross won't move team but he won't live forever any may sell to someone who will, is a not-to-subtle threat to move. I mean, really.

I do believe that Ross isn't going to move the team. He's pretty old and has stated he has no intention of leaving the team to his heirs (which is a great thing for us--remember how bad off we were when J Robbie died and his kids got it, estate taxes were brutal for them). He just wants to up the value of his asset before he sells, and the quickest and cheapest way to do that is to have the public pay to fix up JRS. Trust me, he has not given up on that angle and the renovations will happy eventually. All this "talk" about moving is the only leverage he has to try to push Plan B thru. I know you've got to see all this BS, Truth. You are way too smart to fall for it.

What's your view on all this, Crowder?

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JC Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > DolfanKing Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > > You say "how so?", then answer for me. You
> > spend
> > > so much time tripping over yourself to call
> me
> > a
> > > troll that you completely miss the point.
> >
> >
> > He didn't call you a troll in that post. He
> said
> > your *posts* come off as troll-like.
> >
> > Then you post an answer like the above,
> > reinforcing the notion.
> >
> > All he did was ask you to expand on your
> answer,
> > then he gave HIS perceptions of JRS. If you
> count
> > that as answering for you, then I believe
> you're
> > mistaking that for the concept of *agreeing
> with
> > someone*.
> >
> > You're spending so much time tripping over
> > yourself to play the victim after posting
> nothing
> > but negativity on this forum, that YOU
> completely
> > miss the point.
> >
> > I've been to both stadiums. Here's what I
> think
> > was an improvement when we went from the OB to
> > JRS:
> >
> > The seats. As nostalgic as the painted
> benches
> > were at the OB, they weren't great.
> >
> > The 'facilities.' Concessions, bathrooms,
> etc.
> > all vastly improved. The players' locker rooms
> > were no doubt better as well.
> >
> > Access for fans from the north. Highway exit
> > basically dedicated to the stadium.
> >
> > Sightlines from distant seats At the OB, some
> > seats were much better than others when viewing
> > the action was concerned. While JRS seats were
> > further from the field, you at least had fewer
> > obstructions.
> >
> >
> > Here's what was NOT improved at JRS:
> >
> > Home field advantage. at the OB the seats
> were
> > so close that the fans seemed to be on top of
> the
> > field. The noise was factor was great. It
> > seemed to be a hotter place as well, not only
> > because most games were at 1:00--the
> architecture
> > probably allowed less of a breeze as well.
> >
> > parking Many aren't going to agree with me, but
> I
> > believe it was much easier to pay a resident
> near
> > the OB a few bucks to park in his driveway,
> then
> > easily escape via the street grid after the
> game.
> > JRS has bottlenecks to leave the parking
> areas.
> >
> >
> > So, do you care to answer "how so?" or would
> that
> > be impossible for you because it might involve
> > either agreeing with someone, or may somehow
> > involve posting something positive about an
> aspect
> > of the team.
>
> He is a troll JC.
>
> He's only here to post inflammatory stuff and get
> a reaction. When people call him a troll he gets
> defensive about being persecuted and
> misunderstood, then when people engage him and
> challenge his BS he complains about them picking
> on him.
>
> Classic troll behavior.
>
> It would be so much better if people just ignored
> him. If nobody paid attention to, or responded
> to, his nonsense he'd move on to find others who
> would.

********************************************

Well, guys, I hate to ignore any poster here or any other board, but at times, it must be done.

I am basically ignoring DK, unless there is a post worth replying to. I threw some questions at him some time ago, asking for his reasons for saying what he did, and nothing came of it.

So....until he really gets on my nerves, I'll continue to read his stuff and more often than not, simply ignore it.

Hey sometimes things happen for a reason. Palm Beach County is something he never might have considered because he was pushing so hard for Superbowl 50 in his stadium. Now that it probably won't happen he just might consider other options like a new Stadium and long term deal . THAT would be a smart business move because it ups the value of his Team considerably and he gets his old stadium to turn into a popular venue for local concerts, international sports , and even college football championships.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
>
> having his minion (Dee) say (1) future of team in
> Miami is "dire" (puh-lease) and (2) Ross won't
> move team but he won't live forever any may sell
> to someone who will, is a not-to-subtle threat to
> move. I mean, really.


Dee said the future of the Dolphins in S.Florida was "bleak" in the context of their being no renovations to the stadium.


Harsh language? Maybe, but sometimes the truth hurts.




>
> I do believe that Ross isn't going to move the
> team. He's pretty old and has stated he has no
> intention of leaving the team to his heirs (which
> is a great thing for us--remember how bad off we
> were when J Robbie died and his kids got it,
> estate taxes were brutal for them). He just wants
> to up the value of his asset before he sells, and
> the quickest and cheapest way to do that is to
> have the public pay to fix up JRS. Trust me, he
> has not given up on that angle and the renovations
> will happy eventually. All this "talk" about
> moving is the only leverage he has to try to push
> Plan B thru. I know you've got to see all this BS,
> Truth. You are way too smart to fall for it.


I'm not suggesting they aren't playing a leverage game, just not the one you seem to think.


They are using their leverage against the Speaker because that's all they have at this point.

There is no 'plan B' on funding.

by the time this gets to that point again it'll be 3-5 years down the road or more...Ross will be in late 70's and looking to sell the team.

He won't get another chance to get his done. He's pissed about it and he's going to use all the leverage he has left to make Weatherford pay a political price if he can.


This isn't about Ross wanting a quick infusion of equity in his business. All you have to do is look at his actions to see that: he bought the team on a whim without investigating the stadium situation. He's thrown money at players like a sailor on shore leave. he just gave away half his net worth when he dies.
Why? he's a fan who bought a team that he's been a fan of. not some billionaire who bought his way into the NFL owners club with whatever team he could get.

All he really wants out of this is to win.

If you told him today he'd win a Super Bowl in two years but would have to sell the team the year after at a $200m loss do you think he'd do it?


Of course he would.


So now he plays with his toy for a few years, and tries to win.

In the mean time he uses what leverage he has left to try to get even with the Speaker.


The real leverage game begins when he puts the team on the market with a 30+ year old facility that hasn't had any money put into it in over a decade and is worth about 1/3 of the 300m he paid for it.

When that time comes, the $180M they were looking for today will be a fraction of the cost required to keep the team where it is.


The question when that day arrives, is will the state of Florida and the counties of Miami-Dade & Broward pay to build the new owner a state of the art facility or will they watch the team move to LA?


>
> What's your view on all this, Crowder?


Fairly similar to yours in this case.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 01:29PM by THE Truth.

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > JC Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > DolfanKing Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You say "how so?", then answer for me. You
> > > spend
> > > > so much time tripping over yourself to call
> > me
> > > a
> > > > troll that you completely miss the point.
> > >
> > >
> > > He didn't call you a troll in that post. He
> > said
> > > your *posts* come off as troll-like.
> > >
> > > Then you post an answer like the above,
> > > reinforcing the notion.
> > >
> > > All he did was ask you to expand on your
> > answer,
> > > then he gave HIS perceptions of JRS. If you
> > count
> > > that as answering for you, then I believe
> > you're
> > > mistaking that for the concept of *agreeing
> > with
> > > someone*.
> > >
> > > You're spending so much time tripping over
> > > yourself to play the victim after posting
> > nothing
> > > but negativity on this forum, that YOU
> > completely
> > > miss the point.
> > >
> > > I've been to both stadiums. Here's what I
> > think
> > > was an improvement when we went from the OB
> to
> > > JRS:
> > >
> > > The seats. As nostalgic as the painted
> > benches
> > > were at the OB, they weren't great.
> > >
> > > The 'facilities.' Concessions, bathrooms,
> > etc.
> > > all vastly improved. The players' locker
> rooms
> > > were no doubt better as well.
> > >
> > > Access for fans from the north. Highway exit
> > > basically dedicated to the stadium.
> > >
> > > Sightlines from distant seats At the OB,
> some
> > > seats were much better than others when
> viewing
> > > the action was concerned. While JRS seats
> were
> > > further from the field, you at least had
> fewer
> > > obstructions.
> > >
> > >
> > > Here's what was NOT improved at JRS:
> > >
> > > Home field advantage. at the OB the seats
> > were
> > > so close that the fans seemed to be on top of
> > the
> > > field. The noise was factor was great. It
> > > seemed to be a hotter place as well, not only
> > > because most games were at 1:00--the
> > architecture
> > > probably allowed less of a breeze as well.
> > >
> > > parking Many aren't going to agree with me,
> but
> > I
> > > believe it was much easier to pay a resident
> > near
> > > the OB a few bucks to park in his driveway,
> > then
> > > easily escape via the street grid after the
> > game.
> > > JRS has bottlenecks to leave the parking
> > areas.
> > >
> > >
> > > So, do you care to answer "how so?" or would
> > that
> > > be impossible for you because it might
> involve
> > > either agreeing with someone, or may somehow
> > > involve posting something positive about an
> > aspect
> > > of the team.
> >
> > He is a troll JC.
> >
> > He's only here to post inflammatory stuff and
> get
> > a reaction. When people call him a troll he
> gets
> > defensive about being persecuted and
> > misunderstood, then when people engage him and
> > challenge his BS he complains about them
> picking
> > on him.
> >
> > Classic troll behavior.
> >
> > It would be so much better if people just
> ignored
> > him. If nobody paid attention to, or
> responded
> > to, his nonsense he'd move on to find others
> who
> > would.
>
> ********************************************
>
> Well, guys, I hate to ignore any poster here or
> any other board, but at times, it must be done.
>
> I am basically ignoring DK, unless there is a post
> worth replying to. I threw some questions at him
> some time ago, asking for his reasons for saying
> what he did, and nothing came of it.
>
> So....until he really gets on my nerves, I'll
> continue to read his stuff and more often than
> not, simply ignore it.


Just turn on the "ignore user" feature and you won't see any of his posts unless someone you are not ignoring quotes him.

If nobody quotes him...problem solved.

Berk- I dont think there is a chance in hell they move the team or anybody moves the Dolphins... Everything that is happening right now from Dee, is just posturing, from a weak position... They would kill the value of the franchise, without owning the stadium. To suggest a change of use for the property is absurd.. You only change uses with property if the new use has significantly more value then the previous use... That property becomes D- quality property with out the Dolphins.. There are not enough soccer games , monster truck shows, or stadium concerts to support the current use as a stadium.. Besides they are not turning any of those events away currently.. So it would all be a huge net loss either way... Aint going to happen.. I would be more then happy to put my money where my mouth is on this issue... It is a no brainer... Truth, while I respect his opinion, is just trying to grasp for straws justifying the angle and position Ross and Dee are trying to sell, passive aggressively of course, with very little success.. In the next 5 years or so, something will happen with the stadium unless Ross and Dee dont continue to burn every bridge while making ass's of themselves and the organization.. I think it is incredibly ridiculous, Ross just gave away 2 billion dollars to charity, but is making these huge ordeal about tax payers money and will not invest and extra 150-200 million or so into the stadium.. All of this just continues to add to the absurdity of Stephen Ross,
But I am not surprised, the guy has handled himself like a douche for a while, so why should I expect anything different..
He should just sell the team, it hasnt served the purpose he intended, sure he is more famous, but not in a good way...

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 03:19PM by Crowder52.

Of all the liars in this, who in the hell is the NFL crapping? They act like the stadium is in shambles, WTF is so much better about an outdoor, potential cold weather game in NY then a chance of rain in Miami? I hope like hell that is a freezing rain blowing sideways this year so they don't get anymore bright ideas.

Also, isn't Ross a big time republican backer?......isn't Weatherford a republican? Pretty sure Ross can ruin this guys career if he wants to. From the article eesti posted, it sounds like he has enough skeletons in his closet to bring out and bury him, wouldn't doubt if this guy is history next election.

The bottom line, is all this jockeying while the franchise has been in slump is just not good business IMO... Winning makes all the problems go away, ticket sales, stadium upgrades, etc... TO try and ask for public money while Ross is not really well thought of for his actions as an owner. Combine that with 4 consecutive losing seasons, and making a big stink out of his first loss for funds, at the same time he announces just giving away multiple billions of dollars, makes me think Ross might be going a little senile in his upper years... WTF is he thinking? Sometimes extremely rich older "A" personality guys tend to get lost in their own head I suppose...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Think about it though Crowder, he's given millions to the republican party, and this hot-shot young republican sh*ts on him like that, it'd be one thing if they let it go to a vote and the people voted no, but this duechbag pulled the rug out from underneath him for no apparent reason. I'd be pissed if I was Ross also, and I'd do everything in my considerable power to make him pay for it. Even the people that would vote "NO" shouldn't have a problem with having that chance.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The bottom line, is all this jockeying while the
> franchise has been in slump is just not good
> business IMO... Winning makes all the problems go
> away, ticket sales, stadium upgrades, etc... TO
> try and ask for public money while Ross is not
> really well thought of for his actions as an
> owner. Combine that with 4 consecutive losing
> seasons, and making a big stink out of his first
> loss for funds, at the same time he announces just
> giving away multiple billions of dollars, makes me
> think Ross might be going a little senile in his
> upper years... WTF is he thinking? Sometimes
> extremely rich older "A" personality guys tend to
> get lost in their own head I suppose...

TWO SUPER BOWLS being handed out this month is what he was thinking.

Act now, or miss out on those. Its why he was willing to foot the bill for the referendum. Once this opportunity passed, its gone for good. Pretty simple really.

As for the rest of it...it takes a special kind of fan to be angry at a guy for giving $2B away to charity and not giving any of that to him. Bravo!

He isnt giving money to S florida football fans, he is investing in his own property and infrastructure. And he is making a big stink about not investing in his own property which will add value to his personal investment unless the tax payers contribute hundreds of millions... Yes what a Joke he is

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

It is not the end of the world to anybody in south florida if we dont receive one of these next 2 SUper bowls... We want a winning team in South Florida, I could give 2 shits about giving Ross hundreds of millions to get a Super Bowl unless we are playing in it.. Ross makes it all about the people for why he wants the upgrades and Super bowl.. But we dont care, he does... We care about the Dolphins returning to greatness...Everything else is just taking your eye off the ball to what the fans actually care about...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Think about it though Crowder, he's given millions
> to the republican party, and this hot-shot young
> republican sh*ts on him like that, it'd be one
> thing if they let it go to a vote and the people
> voted no, but this duechbag pulled the rug out
> from underneath him for no apparent reason. I'd be
> pissed if I was Ross also, and I'd do everything
> in my considerable power to make him pay for it.
> Even the people that would vote "NO" shouldn't
> have a problem with having that chance.


That's exactly right. This is all about getting even with Weatherford. There's a lot of ways to do that, but one is to make sure he pays the full freight with public opinion for his choices.

The idea they could move as a result of all this is ancillary to that, at least until Ross puts the team up for sale. Then, if circumstances remain the same...no money into the facility, no new team in LA...it becomes a bigger issue.

I'm sure if it came to pass that a new owner decided to chase the money to LA, some would be yelling at Ross for taking the best offer on the table and not a lesser one that could have kept the Dolphins in Miami.

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Think about it though Crowder, he's given millions
> to the republican party, and this hot-shot young
> republican sh*ts on him like that, it'd be one
> thing if they let it go to a vote and the people
> voted no, but this duechbag pulled the rug out
> from underneath him for no apparent reason. I'd be
> pissed if I was Ross also, and I'd do everything
> in my considerable power to make him pay for it.
> Even the people that would vote "NO" shouldn't
> have a problem with having that chance.

I think Ross burnt a lot of bridges in the last week within the Republican party of Florida.. Sure he could continue to slander the guy and dig up all the dirt he can to try and smear the guy.. But he is a young up and comer in the party, with lots of friends and power with in the state.. Ross attacking him, even if he got him out next election will only make Ross more enemies then he already has and push the votes he needs further away.. People burn you in politics all the time, it is how you handle yourself, that will determine how others will trust you in the future.. Sometimes you bite the bullett and it earns you respect and votes.. When you act as Ross/Dee are acting it loses you votes and supports 9 times out of ten.. It is not what happens to you in life it is how you react, and right now emotions have clearly won over the logical route..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 04:15PM by Crowder52.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He isnt giving money to S florida football fans,
> he is investing in his own property and
> infrastructure. And he is making a big stink about
> not investing in his own property which will add
> value to his personal investment unless the tax
> payers contribute hundreds of millions... Yes
> what a Joke he is


just how much would investing $400M into his property raise its value?

Its already depreciated by 1/3 since he bought it. And any upgrades he puts into the facility will begin depreciating before the cement and paint are dry.


So his 1.1B investment is now worth 1.0B.

You want him to pay the full freight so S. Florida can benefit from that upgrade financially, but primarily so that he recoups the lost equity in his investment on his own.

How is 1.1B for the team and stadium, minus .1B in depreciation made up by pumping 400M of his own money into the facility?


Even if he sells it on day one, and the appreciation is the full $400m...taking the value to $1.4B, he's still $100m in the hole after paying $1.1B upfront and dumping $400m into the facility.

Its a stupid business model. Frankly, its absurd to argue or expect anyone to throw good money after bad.

As you said before...if he wins, it sells tix and that inflates the value of the team, if not the facility.

Its FAR more sensible to throw your money and efforts into trying to win. the opportunity for ROI is greater and the risk of losing more money beyond your payroll and operating costs is non-existent.


Its OK for you and anyone else to not care about the Super Bowls and the money they bring. If you don't want them, or want to have a part in bringing them to S. Florida, that's perfectly fine.

Its just ridiculous for you to argue he should invest his only his own money in a project that benefits more than just himself, or that by giving his money away to charity instead of upgrading an old facility for his fan base is somehow the wrong thing to do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 04:32PM by THE Truth.

2 things crowder, you may not care if Miami host's another Super Bowl, but i'm sure all of the business owners that stand to lose millions do. And I doubt with Ross's deep pockets that he's lost any standing in the Republican party, they will flush this tool Weatherford down the toilet for Ross's financial backing......FACT

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is not the end of the world to anybody in south
> florida if we dont receive one of these next 2
> SUper bowls... We want a winning team in South
> Florida, I could give 2 shits about giving Ross
> hundreds of millions to get a Super Bowl unless we
> are playing in it.. +
> Ross makes it all about the
> people for why he wants the upgrades and Super
> bowl.. But we dont care, he does... We care about
> the Dolphins returning to greatness...Everything
> else is just taking your eye off the ball to what
> the fans actually care about...

Well...there's really nothing more I'd care to add to that.

Pretty much says it all for the shortsighted, 'I want mine and I want it now!' side of the argument.

"We don't need the Super Bowls or the money they bring in our community. All we want is a winning team. Not a business partnership. Shut up and pay the bill or I might continue to hate you."


Seems reasonable...



I said it before, I'll say it again... Part of me almost hopes they end up in LA or some other part of FL. It would be just deserts for those who share your myopic viewpoint.

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 things crowder, you may not care if Miami host's
> another Super Bowl, but i'm sure all of the
> business owners that stand to lose millions do.
> And I doubt with Ross's deep pockets that he's
> lost any standing in the Republican party, they
> will flush this tool Weatherford down the toilet
> for Ross's financial backing......FACT


They will not Dolph- there are more then a few billionaire republican supporters in Florida.. Norman Braman and Wayne just to name a few, I know Braman has been very vocal against the stadium subsidy and Ross.. I am pretty sure Wayne and others are not happy with how Ross is handling himself bashing Weatherford.. Wayne has many issues that these guys have supported and he needs them for...

Ross is a man with out a home with how he is handling this issue.. Even among his big shot republican friends.. Wayne didnt ask for taxpayer money a few years back when he dumped a couple hundred million into the stadium.... Ross is a New Yorker, he is an outsider in Florida even to the republican party.. He is just putting himself into the loose cannon category.. Which means avoid at all cost.. he is alienating himself.. mistake.... You can't go it alone in politics..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche