This is a moderated phorum for the CIVILIZED discussion of the Miami Dolphins. In this phorum, there are rules and moderators to make sure you abide by the rules. The moderators for this phorum are JC and Colonel.
Players taken in the first round at 25 or below...
Jon Beason, Dustin Keller, Greg Olson, Anthony Gonzales, Deangelo Williams, Nick Mangold, Joe Addai, Mathias Kiwanuka, Roddy White, Luis Castillo, Heath Miller, Logan Mankins, Larry Johnson, Nnamdi Asomugha, Charles Gran, Ed Reed(24), Lito Sheppard, Reggie Wayne, Todd Heap, Keith Bulluck, Al Wilson, Donovin Darius, Alan Faneca, Trevor Pryce, Derrick Brooks, O.J. McDuffie, Dana Stubblefield, Robert Porcher, Ted Washington.
Need I say more?
The mock drafts will change substantially after the combine and private workouts. Laurinaitus may rise a bit as others fall with poor 40 times and such.
You can get game changers in the 6th round, if you're lucky (e.g. Tom Brady). Thing is, only certain positions are usually game changers. Offensive Guards, however good they are, are NOT game changers. They don't handle the ball. They don't make play calls. You want a game changer? Then you better hope we draft a WR, ILB, OLB, or Safety, because we're not drafting a QB or RB!
mounty---Offensive Guards, however good they are, are NOT game changers?????????
Did you hear BJ RAJI's name called yesterday, maybe once, thats because the C and Gs were taking care of business. Guard is not the most glorified posistion. You never hear their names called unless they hold or false start. But if you want to play SMASH MOUTH, they'll be the ones SMASHING inside.
I agree, people get anamored with the flashy guy that runs down field and catches a deep catch. But how many times per game does that happen? Once if your lucky, twice and that player is having an outstanding game. An offense on average has about 65 plays, now think about how many snaps the guys in the trenches are responsible for, much more that 3 or 4.
Talk about game changers, if your line is not punching people in the mouth and takes even ONE play off that could lead to a "game changer" but the other way. Let me put it another way, how did we go from 1-15 to 11-5? Look at our draft and FA moves, what do they have in common? 95% effort went to getting bigger, faster, and stronger in the trenches. I think we need another solid year of the same thing and we are a consistent 9-11 win ball club. Then we can get fansy with the first round reciever or glamor pick, JMHO.
Dont get it confused, i love the glamor pick, i played wr. So I want a flashy guy, but bill has shown me the way to building a top notch ball club and it is no question in the trenches.
well if he needs to be coached up I agree I would not waste a first or second on him either. Those guys should be able to come in and make an immediate impact. Maybe fourth on down I would take chances on finding gems or coaching up people but I agree not second. I still have to watch more on Big Herm, I think watching him at the combines in one on one drill will tell if he has the potential he just needs more coaching. We will see but his numbers, actually according to yesterday 6-8' 385 lbs. HOT DAMN!!! if he can get a mean streak he would be banned from football...
montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can get game changers in the 6th round, if
> you're lucky (e.g. Tom Brady). Thing is, only
> certain positions are usually game changers.
> Offensive Guards, however good they are, are NOT
> game changers. They don't handle the ball. They
> don't make play calls. You want a game changer?
> Then you better hope we draft a WR, ILB, OLB, or
> Safety, because we're not drafting a QB or RB!
Try telling the Seahawks/Shaun Alexander and Vikings/Adrain Peterson that Steve Hutchinson is not a game changer.
Well based upon the player updates and evaluations that will be coming out of the SR Bowl and practices, my mock draft will need some amending. BUt not by much.
It's frustrating looking at these players and thinking who we'd get, when we really can't even make a comfortable guess until we know who's staying on our team. If Carey leaves, that's it, we have to get a tackle.
But I think Carey will stay and we'll go defense with number 25. But which position? Passing rushing OLB? Inside to fill Zach's empty spot? Safety? William Moore has a pin in his foot and it's slowed him up last season. So do you use up a high pick for that guy?
How about we take James Laurinaitis ILB, 1st round. Wide Receiver Hakeem Nicks or Kenny Britt, 2nd round. With our other second round pick if Clay Matthews OLB is still there, we can pick him up, or else fill a hole with an O Lineman or Safety.
How deep is the draft with Guards? If we don't go for Duke Robinson, what will be left at the bottom of the second round?
I think #1 needs to go to either center or OG. I think a pass rusher we can find in the late second or even third round. We were terrible at running between the tackles and if we dont address that we will suffer late in the season when the whether gets cold. I would like to get a big NT but we need to fill spots were we are weak and that is free safety cause hill is not getting the job done. I dont think he is better than j.allen who should have started more last year so we know what we have in this previous #16 overall draft pick.
eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> montequi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You can get game changers in the 6th round, if
> > you're lucky (e.g. Tom Brady). Thing is, only
> > certain positions are usually game changers.
> > Offensive Guards, however good they are, are
> NOT
> > game changers. They don't handle the ball.
> They
> > don't make play calls. You want a game changer?
>
> > Then you better hope we draft a WR, ILB, OLB,
> or
> > Safety, because we're not drafting a QB or RB!
>
> Try telling the Seahawks/Shaun Alexander and
> Vikings/Adrain Peterson that Steve Hutchinson is
> not a game changer.
How effective will Hutchinson be if he didn't have a good O-Line coach, good talent around him, and a talented RB to run through his holes? There have been great RBs that have run behind meek O-Lines (e.g. Barry Sanders), but a great Guard with not much else around him doesn't accomplish much.
Miami Reppa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think #1 needs to go to either center or OG. I
> think a pass rusher we can find in the late second
> or even third round.
-------------------------------------------------------
I can't argue with that necessarily, because I feel pretty strongly about the O line myself. But I guess the reverse can be done as well, linebacker with 1st and guard with 2nd. In fact I think we all had a similar conversation last year didn't we (The Long vs Long conundrum)? So I guess it comes down to, who's the best guy available at #25. I'm concerned that we can't run the ball, but also that we haven't replaced Zach. Would be great to have a linebacker like Laurinaitis who I understand can cover, read the QB and wrap up guys.
It was shocking and disappointing that we came out of last year's draft all set to run the ball up everyone gut and stop the run with our boltered D, but instead we couldn't do either. So we can't go another year like that. We just can't.
Our inability to run between the tackles isn't just about the interior linemen. Until we can get the safeties away from the line of scrimmage, our running attack will be problematic. Even with good interior line play, if the defense has 9 defenders in the box, we still won't be able to run it. We need to improve the downfield passing game to help the running game, in addition to bolstering the line.
If we drafted Oher we could move Vernon Carey back to his original and best suited position of Guard. Could you imagine him and Jake Long next to each other with Donald Thomas and Michael Oher on the other side.
DaytonaDolfan13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dont forget we have already found a PASS RUSHING
> OLB in WAKE.
I look at Wake like a 2nd or 3rd rd pick, so you're right. But, something else to consider is that we may need another pass rushing OLB. I really believe that Joey Porter could be traded if the right offer came along. I know this is not likely to be a popular sentiment, but I'm just saying that it is a possibility. Porter is an older player with a huge contract. He had 17.5 sacks this season, but was probably more one dimensional that at any other time in his career. He only had 47 total tackles (including 11 assists, so only 36 solo tackles) and just 1 pass defensed, both career lows. In 4 of the last 7 games, he was held to 1 or 0 tackles. In the KC game, he did not register a single thing on the stat sheet. He made a total of 7 tackles in the month of December. But, there are those 17.5 sacks. Last year at this time, we could not have traded him for anything because of a sub par year and his contract. With those sacks, he may actually have plenty of value to a team that considers itself a player or two away from being elite. I wouldn't be surprised to see him dealt if there's a good offer on the table.
He's worth a 2nd rounder for sure. BUt he's a HARD WORKER and an EMOTIONAL LEADER- those are intangibles that you SHOULD get paid for. He has gas in the tank. Thats a whole nother post.
Laurinaitis or Cushing could be the guy, with Robiskie or Massaquoi with the skins pick unless we sign TJ or Antonio bryant, then we might go OL, DL or secondary
Solomon Elimimian in late rounds, he is a tackling machine!
You cant just look at the numbers with JP, as i think it was eesti said if you watch the game JP always draws the double team or minimally single and chipped by either the TE or the RB. The problem is that with all of the attention that he was drawing we had no other pass rusher that could defeat the one on one. Also he is our mouth piece and the emotional leader on defense and one of the only players on our roster with deep playoff experience and a SB ring. I know what you are saying, we could have traded JT after he won Defensive player of the year and this is kinda the same senerio with the age and all but we already have 8 draft picks I think that is plenty.
Exactly what I was gonna say Reppa. Joey is the ONLY player on D that draws a double team...and he is the leader...well maybe Ferguson does too but he's not rushing much. With any luck Wake will remedy that.
I think Carey will be better at RT when he gets Thomas back playing next to him. He has Ndukwe all year and he's a backup at best and allows many sacks.
I also think our line will be fine if we can add Jason Brown at Center and move Satele to LG or grab another in the the 3rd round. Don't forget about Murphy who will have had another year to develop as well. Most lineman don't start in their first year. Many of the good ones didn't start until their 2nd or 3rd year.
Long, Murphy, Brown, Thomas, Carey looks good to me...
There is also a chance that Smiley will be back at LG as well. I think a new Center is the missing piece of the puzzle and changes the whole dynamic of the line.
This would allow us to address the much needed help on Defense and take the best player available from FS, ILB, OLB, NT & CB.
I am hearing that Crowder is gone because he doesn't make big plays and BP loves LB's that make plays. He was active and made many tackles...just not in the right spot. If we can keep Porter we will still need upgrades at the other 3 LB spots. Getting rid of Porter and Crowder is not a good move IMO.
What if we add one big player on offense thru FA and one for defense. James Farrior or Jonathon Vilma for the ILB spot and we draft Laurinaitus. That would leave us potentially with...
Wake, Laurinaitus, Farrior and Porter.
Porter and Farrior have played together before and it would give us a veteran to call plays and tutor Laurinaitus to take over in a few years unless he can beat him out in camp.
Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree whole hertedly except for one thing,
> Hutchinson is guard, not a tackle.
Which is exactly my point. Larry Little was undrafted. Offensive Guards are rarely, if EVER, drafted in the first round. We already have 2 first rounders and a 2nd rounder on the line. How much money are we going to tie up just there?
montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Phinsfan2 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I agree whole hertedly except for one thing,
> > Hutchinson is guard, not a tackle.
>
>
> Which is exactly my point. Larry Little was
> undrafted. Offensive Guards are rarely, if EVER,
> drafted in the first round. We already have 2
> first rounders and a 2nd rounder on the line. How
> much money are we going to tie up just there?
I don't know that Larry Little being undrafted is a great argument. It was a long time ago, and scouting was not nearly what it is now. Larry Little was just the 3rd player in NFL history from Bethune Cookman, so it's not like it was a hotbed of talent. And there's also the matter that Larry Little weighed over 300 lbs when the average O-Lineman weighed about 250. That wasn't considered a good thing.
dolfanmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> montequi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Phinsfan2 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I agree whole hertedly except for one thing,
>
> > > Hutchinson is guard, not a tackle.
> >
> >
> > Which is exactly my point. Larry Little was
> > undrafted. Offensive Guards are rarely, if
> EVER,
> > drafted in the first round. We already have 2
> > first rounders and a 2nd rounder on the line.
> How
> > much money are we going to tie up just there?
>
> I don't know that Larry Little being undrafted is
> a great argument. It was a long time ago, and
> scouting was not nearly what it is now. Larry
> Little was just the 3rd player in NFL history from
> Bethune Cookman, so it's not like it was a hotbed
> of talent. And there's also the matter that Larry
> Little weighed over 300 lbs when the average
> O-Lineman weighed about 250. That wasn't
> considered a good thing.
It's just that there have been many ProBowl and HoF Guards, and few, if any, of them were drafted in the 1st round.