samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the truth you say you going to puke if we take a
> wr at 12.............But wr is the position we
> need the most....that is our weakest position.
>
> I wouldnt be mad if we take a wr with the first 2
> picks......I dont want another team having a shot
> at one of them becoming great....>If we take the
> best 2 wrs in this draft we are likely to hit on
> one of them bigtime.


Which WR do you think is the guy you have to have at #12 Sam?

In no particualar order..




Terrence Williams, Baylor: Like Patterson, he uses his hands very well to fight off CBs. Not one of the stronger route runners, but he has a very good mixture of size, speed, and catching ability. He's similar to Allen in that he has a variety of abilities that make him a solid WR, but he's just not as adept with his routes.
_______________________________________________________________

Cordarrelle Patterson, Tennessee: Very good, borderline elite speed. He has high 40 times without pads, but he doesn't look like the fastest player on the field. Very good off the line with quickness and double moves. Does a very good job of using his body to block defenders and will use his arms to fight off defenders while running his routes. Solid route runner who and catches the ball well away from his body, but does occasionally catch it against his body. Does a good job of being aggressive with the ball and can get it at its highest point. Not the most dynamic runner without the ball, but he is deadly with the ball in his hands. He has the vision you'd expect from a RB. He's not a strong receiver, but he's not afraid of contact and can attack the inside of the field just as well as he can outside


He is not strong so needs to get in the weight room..No big deal...i like it that he isnt afraid of the hit......like ginn did.
_______________________________________________________________


DeAndre Hopkins, Clemson: Does a good job getting off the line with a mixture of speed and strength. He catches the ball with his body a bit too much, but he is tough to bring down. When he does catch the ball away from his body, he does a very good job of reeling in the catch and using his body control. He has been and will continue to be a WR that will make the tough catches along the sideline and drag his feed in-bounds. He kind of reminds me of a young Terrell Owens with his combination of strength and speed. He's not as lethal as Patterson when he has the ball in his hands, but he is still a headache for defenses because he runs hard and will run through a few defenders.


_____________________________________________________________________

Although dont know much about hopkins but he is ranked high...

I would be happy if we can pick 2 of these guys in the first two rounds.

we got two picks in the second.

Cordarrelle Patterson
WR Junior Tennessee Volunteers
Hometown ROCK HILL, SC
Height6-3
Weight205 lbs.


_____________________________


Terrance Williams
Height / Weight:
6-2 / 205
Position:
WR
Class:
Senior
Hometown:
Dallas, Texas

______________________________


DeAndre Hopkins
#6 WR
Junior Clemson Tigers
HometownCENTRAL, SC
Height 6-1
Weight 200 lbs.

There is a website that ranks the top receivers this year as far as fitting miami's offense:


1) Cordarrelle Patterson

2) Keenan Allen

3) Justin Hunter

4) DeAndre Hopkins

5) Quinton Patton

6) Robert Woods

7) Terrence Williams

8) Tavon Austin

I remember there was a lot noise about robert woods...then his stock fell...

I dont have much time to concentrate in the NFL let alone college...But i stay in touch somehow.

It is still early in the evaluation process. Julio Jones elevated himself after tearing it up at the combine and running a 4.39 40. He was very good but not overly productive at Alabama. He had 2653/15 td's in 3 years with Greg McElroy at QB.

Who's to say that Terrance Williams or another won't do the same. Williams was way more productive in college over 3 years. 3273/27 td's. He was also the best receiver in the Senior Bowl even though the QB's sucked.

I just can't get over the fact that Williams put up over 1800 yards in a 12 game season. 1800 yards is an ALL-PRO season in a 16 game NFL season...and he did it in 12 without RG3.

What if he runs a 4.39 at the combine?

So saying Julio Jones was a "no brainer" may be overstating it a bit. Some were very surprised that the Falcons gave up so much to get him. 2011 and 2012 first round picks, a 2011 second round pick and both 2011 and 2012 fourth round picks for a guy with 1133 yards and 7 td's as a junior.

Some said Michael Crabtree was a no brainer and he is just now starting to develop. He was taken 10th after not even running a 40 yard dash because of injury.

I have no problem taking a WR at 12. We just need to take the biggest impact player that's available. If we're lucky that will be on offense.

March 12, 2013 at 4:00 PM is the start of FA signing period so a few of these need positions may be eliminated by the time the draft rolls around. For instance, if we resign Starks then I doubt we draft a DT. Would it be smart to draft one if Star Lotuleile fell to us?

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Crowder but we never drafted another QB in the 1st round after marino and then last year???? Tannehill...

So i expect for things to change now that philbin is in town. In fact it already has...starting last year.

We better get a receiver in the 1st round.

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In no particualar order..
>
>


That's what I was getting at. The fact that you have a group of wr's without a clear cut favorite only highlights the fact that you are settling and drafting for need and not taking the best player on the board.


At the very least, if you are going to draft for need and don't care which guy you get, then trade down.

I'm sure Philbin has some say in player acquisitions but the problem IMO is that we have had the same front office personnel for as long as 10 years.

Ireland is the GM and he has Brian Gaines under him as Assistant GM. They both come from the Parcels pipeline.

Our Director of College scouting is Chris Grier. He has been here for 12 years. Call me crazy but we have sucked for the last 10 years and have failed to identify any good college WR's or offensive play makers for decades. Why this guy is still here is beyond me.

Chris Shea is our Director or Pro Scouting. He is a lawyer that is involved in cap management but has had limited experince in scouting.

I am less worried about Gaines (although still skeptical) and Ireland as I am still curious to see how they do without Parcels around but Grier? Not sure about this guy.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2013 07:26AM by eesti.

For the West Coast Offense and what Philbin/Sherman have mentioned:

1) Precise route running is imperative
2) Versatile enough to play any of the WR positions, WRs should be interchangeable
3) Must have very good hands
4) Intelligence, must be able to read coverages on the fly for sight adjustments/option routes

So, when you read about guys who run poor routes or drop a lot of passes, move them down the list of potential draftees.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe its far better to draft a Pass rusher
> with a 90% chance of fulfilling that end goal than
> a WR/TE with a 60% chance merely because we have a
> greater need at WR.
>
> We can roll the dice on guys like that later in
> the draft
>
>
> These are the exact same principles and positions,
> that got us in this mess at WR in the first
> place....
>
> Sooner or later you have to buck up and take a
> shot at WR, because you can say that every year
> like Ireland and never draft one above the third
> rd, like Ireland, and look like the Dolphins after
> 5 years with Ireland as our GM with 12 passing
> TD's last season.... Great plan! We should
> defintely keep it up....hahaha


I think you misunderstand my position so I'll restate it.

When I said you can roll the dice on guys like that later in the draft, I meant AFTER round one. Not in the 4-7th rounds. I'd have no problem taking two wr's with our 4 picks in rounds 2 & 3. I have no issue with trading down and taking a WR in round one.

All I'm saying is the first round is your best chance to find a player you feel is a future pro bowl level talent and that itsfoolish to pass on the guy on your list with the best chance to reach that level in favor of a riskier player at a need position.

You can roll the dice on need positions in the 2nd and 3rd when players are more tightly grouped across the board.

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crowder but we never drafted another QB in the 1st
> round after marino and then last year????
> Tannehill...
>
> So i expect for things to change now that philbin
> is in town. In fact it already has...starting last
> year.
>
> We better get a receiver in the 1st round.


What if after the combine and evaluation period you decide all the wrs this draft suck and none are future pro bowlers?

You still feel you HAVE to take one in the 1st?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2013 08:08AM by THE Truth.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It is still early in the evaluation process. Julio
> Jones elevated himself after tearing it up at the
> combine and running a 4.39 40. He was very good
> but not overly productive at Alabama. He had
> 2653/15 td's in 3 years with Greg McElroy at QB.
>
> Who's to say that Terrance Williams or another
> won't do the same. Williams was way more
> productive in college over 3 years. 3273/27 td's.
> He was also the best receiver in the Senior Bowl
> even though the QB's sucked.
>
> I just can't get over the fact that Williams put
> up over 1800 yards in a 12 game season. 1800 yards
> is an ALL-PRO season in a 16 game NFL season...and
> he did it in 12 without RG3.
>
> What if he runs a 4.39 at the combine?
>
> So saying Julio Jones was a "no brainer" may be
> overstating it a bit. Some were very surprised
> that the Falcons gave up so much to get him. 2011
> and 2012 first round picks, a 2011 second round
> pick and both 2011 and 2012 fourth round picks for
> a guy with 1133 yards and 7 td's as a junior.
>
> Some said Michael Crabtree was a no brainer and he
> is just now starting to develop. He was taken 10th
> after not even running a 40 yard dash because of
> injury.
>
> I have no problem taking a WR at 12. We just need
> to take the biggest impact player that's
> available. If we're lucky that will be on
> offense.
>
> March 12, 2013 at 4:00 PM is the start of FA
> signing period so a few of these need positions
> may be eliminated by the time the draft rolls
> around. For instance, if we resign Starks then I
> doubt we draft a DT. Would it be smart to draft
> one if Star Lotuleile fell to us?


Jones was an ELITE WR prospect from the day he showed up at Alabama.

He didnt sneak up on anyone.

They just have to identify who that play making PB player is out of....

Ezekiel Ansah, Dee Milliner, Lotulelei, Jarvis Jones, Bark Mingo, DaMontre Moore, Keenan Allen, Terrance Williams, Cordarelle Patterson, Bjoern Werner, Eric Fisher, Tyler Eifert, Zach Ertz..(not that Fisher can make plays but could be a 10 year fixture)

Depending on how they fall...

This is a great draft year to be the Rams who pick at 16 & 22. That's a great spot to land two quality players.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> samsam3738 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Crowder but we never drafted another QB in the
> 1st
> > round after marino and then last year????
> > Tannehill...
> >
> > So i expect for things to change now that
> philbin
> > is in town. In fact it already has...starting
> last
> > year.
> >
> > We better get a receiver in the 1st round.
>
>
> What if after the combine and evaluation period
> you decide all the week this draft suck and none
> are future pro bowlers?
>
> You still feel you HAVE to take one in the 1st?

OK then no....im just hoping they do the best for this team......

But do you really think a couple of them will not stand out at the combine?

I think a couple to 3 of them will stand out at the combine. the odds are very good of that.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They just have to identify who that play making PB
> player is out of....
>
> Ezekiel Ansah, Dee Milliner, Lotulelei, Jarvis
> Jones, Bark Mingo, DaMontre Moore, Keenan Allen,
> Terrance Williams, Cordarelle Patterson, Bjoern
> Werner, Eric Fisher, Tyler Eifert, Zach Ertz..(not
> that Fisher can make plays but could be a 10 year
> fixture)
>
> Depending on how they fall...
>
> This is a great draft year to be the Rams who pick
> at 16 & 22. That's a great spot to land two
> quality players.


Most of those guys won't even get near our pick.

Forgetting the wr's for a minute, the guys on that list that could be there at 12 (as things appear today) are ansah, fisher , mingo, and eiffert/ertz.

Of those guys, I think ansah and fisher are studs. I'd add dion Jordan to that stud list over mingo. I also think eiffert is a star.

I'd take anyone of those 4 over every single WR in this draft as things stand today.

Frankly, I don't think the wr's in this draft have much seperation. I think the 2nd and 3rd round rated guys at this point (Austin, bailey, Dobson, etc) could be even better in our system than the guys that could go in he first round.

Give me Fisher, ansah or Jordan in the first and then go WR/TE/cb heavy the rest of the draft and I'll be thrilled.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2013 08:36AM by THE Truth.

My original point is not that we don't NEED to draft a WR....it is that in this draft which ever guy is available with the 12th pick...there is a similarly talented guy available with the 42nd pick.

The same can not be said about DE,CB, and ILB, OL

So...you use the 12th pick on the need you can't equally fill later, and use the later pick/s on guys that are rated within your desirability range.

If we draft Keenan Allen with the 12th and pass up on a Corner or DE and then when we pick in the 2nd round Patterson or Terrence Williams is still on the board we will have made a mistake.

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > samsam3738 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Crowder but we never drafted another QB in
> the
> > 1st
> > > round after marino and then last year????
> > > Tannehill...
> > >
> > > So i expect for things to change now that
> > philbin
> > > is in town. In fact it already has...starting
> > last
> > > year.
> > >
> > > We better get a receiver in the 1st round.
> >
> >
> > What if after the combine and evaluation period
> > you decide all the week this draft suck and
> none
> > are future pro bowlers?
> >
> > You still feel you HAVE to take one in the 1st?
>
> OK then no....im just hoping they do the best for
> this team......
>
> But do you really think a couple of them will not
> stand out at the combine?
>
> I think a couple to 3 of them will stand out at
> the combine. the odds are very good of that.

I thinks it's possible the one or two of them separate themselves from the pack. I don't think there's any chance any of them get to the level of an aj green, Julio jones, or even Justin Blackmon by the draft.

That's not to say one or more of the wr's in this class won't be perennial pro bowl/1000 yrd wr's. It's just my opinion that we are just as likely to find that guy in the 2nd tier of wr's as the first tier this draft.

Look at dolphinmark's post on what skill sets the wr's best suited for our offense should possess.

Brains, hands and some speed/running ability are far more important than blazing speed or awesome size and strength.

Heck, I think all of green bay's wr's were picked after round 1 and thats the offense we run. The giants have one of the best WR corps in the league and their only 1st round wr is Nicks who was a real late first rounder.

I look at it this way:

I think there are 3 or 4 wr's in this draft that have a 60% chance of being a star player. I think there are another 6-10 that have a 50% chance of getting to that level of production.

I think there are 4 or 5 players who could be on the board at #12 that I give an 80 or 90% chance of being that good.

I think that after that there are 50 or 60 players that fall into that 50/50 category.

I'd rather have 1 guy I'm pretty certain will be a star in my to three picks than two guys who are coin flips and one guy who is marginally better than a coin flip.

I know my ratings are entirely subjective and not based on the material gm's will use to rate players but I just wanted to detail my thought process for you.

Maybe a WR moves up into that 80-90 range for me in the coming months. But I'm not optimistic.

realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My original point is not that we don't NEED to
> draft a WR....it is that in this draft which ever
> guy is available with the 12th pick...there is a
> similarly talented guy available with the 42nd
> pick.
>
> The same can not be said about DE,CB, and ILB, OL.

Exactly.

It would be one thing if this was the greatest WR class in history with 4 or 5 cant miss studs. But it isn't. That 2nd group of wr's this year is very much like the top tier. You just can't say that about the other positions.


>
> So...you use the 12th pick on the need you can't
> equally fill later, and use the later pick/s on
> guys that are rated within your desirability
> range.
>
> If we draft Keenan Allen with the 12th and pass up
> on a Corner or DE and then when we pick in the
> 2nd round Patterson or Terrence Williams is still
> on the board we will have made a mistake.

Agreed.

I still think it's too big a gamble to reach for these unproven players. There are certainly teams that can afford to do that but we have too many needs.

The Giants were in a position ot take a chance on JPP and he had a great 2nd year. He had a ho-hum 3rd year but he was an inexperinced, unproductive, raw player just Like Dion Jordan, Patterson and Ansah are this year.

I think Eric Fisher may be the exception but he was "productive" in college, just overlooked because he played at a smaller school. His value also increased when Jake mathews and Taylor Lewan dropped out of the running..

There are many variables to weigh (senior bowl play/workouts) but for the most part I would stick with college production in the first round.

Jordan was considered by most to be a 3rd round pick heading into the college season. He has made virtually no improvement from last season and is now seen as a high first rounder. He could be JPP or he could be Vernon Gholston.

Like I said (and you reiterated) most of the top players will be gone when we draft. I view it slightly different though. I think there are about 10 blue chippers and then the players from 11-24 are about the same quality.

I would go for the productive player that still has the physical tools to evolve in the next level.

Terrance Williams, Tyler Eifert, Eris Fisher...

If no one falls then this is the route I would go.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I still think it's too big a gamble to reach for
> these unproven players. There are certainly teams
> that can afford to do that but we have too many
> needs.
>
> The Giants were in a position ot take a chance on
> JPP and he had a great 2nd year. He had a ho-hum
> 3rd year but he was an inexperinced, unproductive,
> raw player just Like Dion Jordan, Patterson and
> Ansah are this year.
>
> I think Eric Fisher may be the exception but he
> was "productive" in college, just overlooked
> because he played at a smaller school. His value
> also increased when Jake mathews and Taylor Lewan
> dropped out of the running..
>
> There are many variables to weigh (senior bowl
> play/workouts) but for the most part I would stick
> with college production in the first round.
>
> Jordan was considered by most to be a 3rd round
> pick heading into the college season. He has made
> virtually no improvement from last season and is
> now seen as a high first rounder. He could be JPP
> or he could be Vernon Gholston.


He's neither of those guys. JPP is 275+ pounds. Jordan is 245.

Gholston was bigger as well.

Maybe Jordan is as stupid as Gholston but I doubtit.

A better style and physical comparison is Jason Taylor.

Keep in mind he's only been a de/OLB for 3 years or so. He was recruited as a TE.

I wasn't comparing the size of the players. I was comparing the lack of college production or inexperience.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the truth you say you going to puke if we take a
> wr at 12.............But wr is the position we
> need the most....that is our weakest position.
>
> I wouldnt be mad if we take a wr with the first 2
> picks......I dont want another team having a shot
> at one of them becoming great....>If we take the
> best 2 wrs in this draft we are likely to hit on
> one of them bigtime.

*****************************************

I am sure that Truth and everyone else on this board realizes Miami must get a top notch WR, but again, as we all know, there is no one in this year's draft that is a "must have" #1 WR. There are enough of them that are basically in the same boat that Miami can wait until the second round before selecting one.

Now, saying all that, if when Miami's pick at 12 comes up, and Ireland/Philbin have a particular WR at the top of their list, then that's probably the route they choose.

However, I honestly don't think that will be the case; Miami has too many needs on both sides of the ball, that there will be a "can't miss, immediate starter" there at 12. That's the guy they go after. If that guy isn't there and Ireland can find a trading partner, then Miami moves down.

You may be right, Sam, in that Miami may just hit on one of the available WRs, but that is a big if.

I have said it before....much depends on what Ireland does in free agency. If he signs that #1 WR (i.e., Wallace) then WR is no longer a "top" priority, but I would still see them going with one in the 2nd round. If it is true that a WR takes 2-3 years to jell (normally), then it would be good for Miami to grab that guy in the 2nd and learn under the newly signed #1 WR FA.

All of this Julio jones and Aj Green comparison in order to feel comfortable drafting a WR in the first rd is a bit ridiculous... We have pick number 12... AJ Green was the number 4 overall pick and Jones number 6 overall... If those guys were available they would be long gone by number 12.... You have to have a good GM that can make the call... I believe when all is said and done 3 years from now there will be a pass threat that we will agree was worth the number 12 pick in this draft, whether or not Ireland can identify him is the question IMO...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All of this Julio jones and Aj Green comparison in
> order to feel comfortable drafting a WR in the
> first rd is a bit ridiculous... We have pick
> number 12... AJ Green was the number 4 overall
> pick and Jones number 6 overall... If those guys
> were available they would be long gone by number
> 12.... You have to have a good GM that can make
> the call... I believe when all is said and done 3
> years from now there will be a pass threat that we
> will agree was worth the number 12 pick in this
> draft, whether or not Ireland can identify him is
> the question IMO...

***********************************************

The problem I see with that Crowder, is many will go back to the Long vs Ryan argument. They both turned out well for both teams.

That could happen with this year's draft also. Miami could get an immediate starter and All Pro (ala Long) and another team, who got that receiver that was available to Miami at 12, could also do great things. But, that WR could also flop and everyone would be talking of how great a GM Ireland is; but on the other hand....

Anyway, the draft is a crapshoot, but still a lot of fun for us fans.

Capt, but we are talking about cutting ties with Long and Matt Ryan was contending for a Super Bowl appearance... If we let Jake walk it shows that we made the wrong decision by going with the safe pick who didn't last much beyond his rookie deal...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche