tsstamper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bowe is not a special player. He has been KC's
> only real receiving threat since they lost Gonzo
> and they have had a truly incredible running game
> for much of his time there. He had one incredible
> year (TD wise) among some solid ones. But he's
> not the fastest, smartest, most physically
> dominant, etc. There's nothing that makes him
> truly special.
>
> Wallace is truly special in terms of combining
> truly elite speed and production. He's younger.
> My only real concern with him is that PIT FAs seem
> to never be the same for their next team.
>
> Jennings brings declining production, older age
> but knowledge of the WCO. I'd like to have him,
> but not at top dollar price.
>
> If I'm choosing just one, and WR is my top
> priority, I probably pick Wallace.
>
> My twist: if Hartline and Jennings are priced
> similarly by the market (how the average Joe like
> us might know that prior to their respective
> signings, I don't know) would you rather have:
> - Wallace, Jennings, 2nd round pick, Bess OR
> - Wallace, Hartline, 2nd round pick, Bess?
>
> Hartline had a career year for yards, but his TD
> production is abysmal. Jennings has taken a back
> seat in GB and his production has declined and
> he's older. To be honest, I think our team is
> stronger for the next 2-3 years with Jennings.

*******************************************************

That's easy -- Hartline!

He's younger, that's the main thing, and if their stats are similar, there's no question, especially because Hartline won't be looking for that outrageous contract.

True, H's TD production is nothing to write home about. However, give him that #1 guy on the outside (i.e., Wallace) and his stats should improve in all areas. And as was said, another year with RT and things should be much better.

Wallace will be the prize of free agent WR's this year and he isn't injured or injury prone like Long. He is young and healthy and just happens to play for a team that isn't big on giving large FA contracts to WR's. Hines Ward only made about 6 mil a year and he was the franchise leader.

Pit is a team that has traditionally done well in drafting WR's so they can afford to let their FA WR's walk. Every year a new one steps up.

Kevin Colbert has already announced he will get under the salary cap by terminations. They are over currently the cap by about 8 million and are counting on Ben, Woodley and Timmons restructuring their contracts just to get under.

They cannot afford to give Wallace 9-10 million.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The rumor is Ireland offered a low-ball contract
> to Long which is the right move at this time. Our
> line was not good with Long and did not miss him
> at all when he got hurt.


I guess it depends on how you define "low-ball offer".

He probably offered him something in line with what the top guys at the position get...not the top guy which is what he wants.

Frankly, that's fine by me.

Just decided what he's worth to you. And don't get talked into paying more than that.





> Rumor is Jennings wants over 8 mil a year and no
> way in hell Ireland is paying that for an aging,
> declining player.


I have no issues with giving Jennings $8 mill a year if the contract is tructured correctly.

3 years... $24mill...6 mill up front is fine. You get a #1 WR and your cap isn't crushed if you have to cut him due to injury in the first 2 years.

5 years...40mill and $20 up front is a bad contract. We'd be married to the guy until he's collecting social security.



>
> Wallace wants 10 plus and probably not much
> different for Bowe.

Bowe supposedly wants to come home...might get him for Jennings money.



>
> I still say trading down to get a comparible
> player and more picks is our best option. The
> anticipation is driving me crazy.


lol...me too!

I agree...trading down is the best option...unless there's a "can't miss" guy that's head and shoulders above the rest at #12...which I don't think will be the case.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Crowder52 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > >
> > > Also if it is so hard to find a stud WR in
> the
> > > draft then why would Green Bay, Steelers or
> KC
> > > knowingly let such a hard find walk right out
> > the
> > > door... For no reason, they just want to help
> > out
> > > the Dolphins?
> >
> > For simple reasons:
> >
> > Green Bay is letting Jennings go because they
> are
> > a frugal organization and they have FOUR other
> > quality, starting NFL WR's on their roster
> > already, and a couple of guys they are grooming.
>
> > With that type of depth at WR they don't have
> to
> > spend money on that position. They can focus
> > their resources improving the team in other,
> more
> > needy areas.
> >
> > If Jennings was their only good WR, they'd pay
> > him.
> >
> >
> > Pitt is another fugal organization and they are
> > paying antonio Brown $8mill a year at WR.
> They,
> > and in reality NO organization, is going to pay
> > $18+ mill a year to its starting WR's.
> >
> >
> > Just because players are hitting the free agent
> > market doesnt mean they aren't valuable players.
>
> > Sometimes its a numbers game,and sometimes it
> just
> > comes down to finances.
>
>
> If you have 4 star WR's which one do you let walk
> and why? You chose 3 other guys over him why?

each situation is different. But in general, you keep the younger guys who are under control contractually for lesser money if they are all similar talents. Its not that complicated.

You only have so much money to spend. Even less so when you don't have an owner with deep pockets. Its foolish to overspend at any one position where you have depth.


> You
> chose to pay Antonio Brown over Wallace, why?


Because Wallace wanted more than they were willing to pay their #1 WR so they pulled the offer to him and gave it to Brown who jumped at it.

Its not like they didn't want Wallace back. They just knew they couldn't keep both WR's long term and knew they culd lock up Brown at a team friendly contract.

It had nothing to do with Wallace's ability or personality.

Is Jake Long that delusional? to think he is the best LT still? Surely he knows he has stunk it up and not earned his money for two years. maybe not.

If that's the case then he can hit the bricks. Let NY or Buf sign him. Cam can eat his lunch twice a year.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2013 09:57AM by eesti.

If the price difference between Hartline and Jennings is $2 million per, then it's a bit of a tough call for me.

The Hartline offseason injury thing for me doesn't make as much sense, since he had a much better first 1/2 of the season than last 1/2.

My main issue with Hartline is that he has not been a factor in the red zone...or really in getting into the end zone period. He has 6 TD in 4 years, and 3 of them came in his rookie year. His 1 TD last year was on completely blown coverage against AZ. And, the thing is I can't really remember him getting that many throws his way in the end zone/red zone, and I'm guessing it's because he has trouble getting open in that tighter space. I may have selective memory, but that's what I remember.

Last year, he was the top target - targeted about 2x what he was the year before, with about 2x the catches for about 2x the yards and the same number of TD. Pretty similar if you compare 2012 to 2010, too. I'm not sure he got that much better...just played a different role in the offense. Is his potential much greater than what we have seen? Or is it worth $5 million per (on the low end, IMO) to see him potentially return to 500-600 yard seasons with 1 TD because we add more viable targets across the board?

I don't know what kind of injury Jennings had to make him miss 8 games, but his TD number project to 8 for a full season. If he's healthy and ready for a full season and could be had for $7 million for 4 years, but Hartline wants, say, $5.5 million per for 5 years, then the total number is about the same (purely hypothetical, of course). My point is, I might be willing to sign Jennings for a shorter timeframe but similar money because his runway is shorter. What makes you think he doesn't have another 3-4 years in him? My guess is that if he gets $7 million per from any team, then they're banking on him having at least 2-3 years left.

Bowe is not a special player?

2007- as a rookie, With Damon Huard and Brodie Coyle at QB, Bowe caught 70 passes for 995 yards, and 5 TD.
2008- With Tyler Thigpen, Huard, and Coyle at QB, Bowe caught 86 passes for 1022 yards, and 7 TD.
2009- Matt Cassel at QB, 47 catches for 589 yards, 4 TD. Bowe missed time with an injury and suspension.
2010- Matt Cassel at QB, had 72 catches for 1162 yards, and 15 TDs.
2011- Cassel, Tyler Palko, and Kyle Orton played QB, Bowe caught 81 passes for 1159 yards, and 5 TD.
2012- The Chiefs were the NFL’s worst team, with Cassel and Brady Quinn combining for 8 TD passes and 20 INTs. Bowe had 59 catches for 801 yards, and 3 TD before breaking 2 ribs and missing the final 3 games.

**** Honestly, the production doesn't scream 'special' to me. And, my point was more about there not being something truly special about his makeup where he's simply a beast in a particular area (speed, quickness, hands, mental, physical, whatever)

Who did Mike Wallace have at QB? You mentioned that Bowe has been KC's only receiving threat. Who did Mike Wallace have around him? Hines Ward?
Heath Miller? Antonio Brown? That should be exactly the point. Bowe has been very productive, even as the only receiving option. That's more impressive than doing it with a stronger supporting cast.

**** Rapelisberger. I agree that there's a good chance that Wallace might not live up to big contract, #1 expectations because he's not really been 'the only option', but my understanding of Philbin's offense is that he isn't looking for a #1 receiver like Marshall...but a WR corps whose skills are both ubiquitous and complimentary as much as possible.

The Chiefs have had an incredible running game for much of his time there? Two out of the 6 years, they have had a top 10 rushing attach. Once they were 11th, twice they were middle of the pack, and once they were 30th.

**** OK, not legendary, but I'm guessing the year they were 30th was the year Jamal Charles got hurt early in the year and missed the rest of the season. Give me a running game where the primary back gains 1400-1500 yards on nearly 6 YPC. Top 10 2x and 11th, then 2x middle of the pack. Solid...perhaps not incredible the whole time, but very very solid.

You put up those kinds of numbers with Damon Huard, Brody Coyle, Tyler Thigpen, Tyler Palko, Brady Quinn, and Matt Cassell playing QB, and you are a special player. Imagine if he had been playing with a Pro Bowl caliber QB the entire time, instead of different lousy QBs every year?

**** Brady, Brees, Rodgers or Manning would increase his production, of course. I'm sure every WR would love to be catching from those guys. Quite frankly - sincere apologies to the thread's original author - he reminds me a lot of Chris Chambers. One incredible year (for Chambers it was actually more like one phenomenal 1/2 year) with some other years of pretty good production peppered in. He went to SD and a much better QB situation and didn't do as much as I'm sure they expected with significantly better QB play. I'm from KC, and the thing I heard most from fans about Bowe is that he left so much more production on the field, it seemed like to them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2013 11:18AM by tsstamper.

The production doesn't seem special? Those two seasons of over 1150 yards would rank 6th and 7th best in Dolphins history. The year with 15 TDs would rank 2nd all time.

It's not just one bad QB that Bowe has played with. Part of the point is that he has played with 6 bad QBs in 6 seasons. What would he do with one consistent, solid QB, who he can build a chemistry with? Like Wallace has been able to do with Roethlisberger? Look at how awful Wallace was this year in the games that Roethlisberger missed.

Look, we need a deep threat. Badly. And Wallace fits that bill perfectly. But, we also need a red zone threat and a big, physical WR who can run the slant, a staple of the WCO. Sorry, but Bess and Hartline have both proven they can't get open in the confined spaces of the red zone. We need a WR who can use his body to get himself open, a guy who can be physical with DBs, and carve himself an open space in the red zone. Mike Wallace doesn't do that. Dwayne Bowe does. On the slant routes, they want a guy who can use his body to position himself inside the defender, catch the slant, and isn't afraid to go over the middle. Bowe also does that.

Let's say that Mike Wallace wants 5 years and $60M, with $30M guaranteed. And let's say Dwayne Bowe would sign with his hometown team for 4 years and $36M, with $18M guaranteed. Which one are you taking? I'd be taking Bowe, and drafting a speedster with one of my high draft picks.

dolfanmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Let's say that Mike Wallace wants 5 years and
> $60M, with $30M guaranteed. And let's say Dwayne
> Bowe would sign with his hometown team for 4 years
> and $36M, with $18M guaranteed. Which one are you
> taking? I'd be taking Bowe, and drafting a
> speedster with one of my high draft picks.


agreed

Hold up, you guys say Wallace turned down the same money they offered Antonio Brown, so the Steelers signed Brown instead? That means Wallace turned down 5 year 42.5 million dollar n... Wallace is the only one in the group that has an expected longer shelf life then 3-4 or so years.. You guys are will to pay Wallace a 50 million dollar+ deal? He is worth that type of commitment...
It just seems wild to me that the Steelers are just gonna let a young 50 million dollar WR walk away... If he was that special and deserving of that type of money, I would think the Steelers would find a way to keep him..
I felt the same amazement that Broncos were just gonna trade away Brandon Marshall........

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All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2013 02:17PM by Crowder52.

I like Bowe at the cheapest money, I think RT needs a big target fight for the ball type of guy...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

What about the position that Bowe will be 29 years old this year and he doesn't always take great care of his body? If you believe the reports around KC then he will not play at a high level into his thirties. Is he worth it for a two year investment?

He is not exactly a TD scoring machine. He had years of 5, 7, 4, 15, 5 & 3 TD's. Looks like 15 was the anomaly.

It's easy to say Philbin's WCO does not need a #1 WR when you have receivers like James Jones, Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb and Donald Driver. Every one of these guys has been capable of a 1k yard season. That's 5 quality receivers. I don't think many, if any teams can boast that.

But...If that is the case then we have a similar type player in Brian Hartline. Why would we want to get rid of him when he is the only one we have. We need to add players with him. Not let them walk away.

If those Packers receivers aren't true #1's then it should not be hard to find 3 or 4 more like them in FA & the draft. Who are they? What do they have in common that makes them such a good fit in the WCO?

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Eesti- the only young player in the group is Wallace and he is going to want huge money.. If you don't over pay for Wallace any otherFA WR you sign is going to be a short term solution while hopefully your drafted and young WRs fully develop..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Question: The people who think we ought to put our greatest emphasis on a WR in FREE AGENCY say so because of the time it takes to yield results from even a future all pro receiver.

So if we really are not expecting to go to the Super Bowl next year (and most would agree that's not probable), what IS THE PROBLEM with letting Tannehill grow up with his own rookie future all pro receiver. I mean what's the hurry for next year?

Getting Tanny an established WR will be huge for his development. My preference in order are; Jennings, Wallace, Bowe, all with drafting another stud WR fairly high.

well said. I think Bowe would be a smart acquisition. You want a guy that gets open all over the field with all of the routes.

IMO...

Wallace has awesome speed and opens up the middle for other guys.

Jennings brings experience, hands and knowledge of the system and helps Tanny develop as a system QB.

Bowe is not as fast as Wallace, and is less West Coast than Jennings....but...I think he is the better all-round WR.

Again....

Anquan Boldin, Wes Welker, Vincent Jackson, Garcon

Those are the WR's.

Jonathan Vilma????
Nate Clements??!!
Jonathan Joseph!!??
Dansby??

There are lots of examples of teams not being able to afford players they would like to keep.

This year it might be difficult to sign an impact LB...or DE...but it just so happens that there are 3 teams that will have a hard time keeping a starting calibre WR.

lol.....Chambers again :-)

he is higher on the all-time Dolphin WR list than a lot of guys we hold up.

Chambers prime was wasted with Fiedler underthrowing, overthrowing, poorly throwing the deep ball.

He went to SD and had a good season, and was the top WR in the league during the play-offs. the next season Vincent Jackson exploded on the scene...which limited his targets.

If Bowe is like Chambers...that's fine with me.

I 2nd the motion!

I think a guy who is a 1,000 yd WR with a string of backup QB's takes care of his body enough to do the job we need him to do.

I like Jennings and Wallace as well....but looking at age, money, and production? Bowe makes great sense.

I give up.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> He is not exactly a TD scoring machine. He had
> years of 5, 7, 4, 15, 5 & 3 TD's. Looks like 15
> was the anomaly.
>

Damon Huard. Brody Coyle. Tyler Thigpen. Matt Cassell. Tyler Palko. Brady Quinn.

Let that sink in for a bit.

I agree you need to have a rookie with whom Tanny can develop, but it helps both the young QB and the rookie WR to have an established veteran WR that draws the attention of the D.

Andrew Luck and T.Y Hilton will be great together....thanks to the presence of Reggie Wayne.

Also, I don't think anyone is saying we won't be in the Superbowl next year.

I think what we are saying is...you can't get there with just a rookie WR...we need a veteran NOW to be competitive NOW.

1> Allen WR CAL
2a> Anderson CB NC ST
2b> Dobson WR Marshall
3a> Short DT Purdue
3b> Fauria TE UCLA
4> Manuel QB FSU
5> X Nixon T UF

Get Tanny his 'weapons' w/ 2 fast wr's and a big TE, Fauria. Short is a big DT that can get to the qb. Manuel backs up Tanny (we need a backup qb) and Nixon can compete at RT. This we we don't spend our F/A money on big price receivers.

Bowe is similar to Brandon Marshall..but Bowe is less talented, same head case issues, same drop issues. I don't like him at all. Doesn't seem like a Philbin type of player, so little chance of him coming here.

The need for a primary receiver is definitely one of the top priorities to move this team into the higher winning percentage then .500 However the current free agent crop only has an outside chance at providing this to the team.

I think I forsee a future similar to the Packers where we have 3-4 good/decent receivers and nobody that stands out from the crowd. Bess, and Hartline can fill two of these roles. Just need 2 more plus a spare one in case one goes down during the course of the season. This is why I like Jennings right now.


The other big needs on this team are just as important and should not be neglected. Dominant Pass Rusher, and Shut down corner.

There are lots of other holes on this team, but those are the main 3 that I would like to see cemented this off season.

The other knock on Bowe is that he is an undisciplined/lazy route runner that often causes the QB to be intercepted. I read where he did it twice in one game this year.

according to Pro Football Focus, he accounted for three drops and three interceptions when the ball is thrown toward him through October of last year. Bowe in 2011 had 10 drops and accounted for five interceptions while scoring only five touchdowns.

To be fair...

According to Pro Football Focus, Bowe was targeted downfield 37 times over the past season and a half (as of October 2012). Of that number, only 14 were deemed "catchable."

The point is there are red flags that must be investigated and it is boom or bust with Bowe. I don't doubt he is a very good receiver. I just wonder about how he fits in Miami's WCO and with Philbin.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Plain and simple -- he (Bowe) doesn't fit because he comes with WAY TOO MUCH BAGGAGE!!!

No more head cases. No more underachievers. No more recycled trash.

Like a few of us have mentioned before. He doesn't sound like a "Philbin guy". The whole conversation is for not anyway since the chances of us signing him are very slim according to Philbin philosophy. Jennings and Wallace maybe but I don't see it with D-Bowe.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

I like it when guys on the board try to define a "Philbin Guy". They wouldn't know if they saw won. Philbin knows what he wants and if he wants Bowe he will get him. All the BS posted about him is funny. All I see in KC (fans) is that they want the guy back. I never saw anything about the guy that reminds me of B Marshall. He played hard ball regarding money one year is all I know.

Bowe last 4 years: 3700+ yards 27 tds
Hartline last 4 yrs: 2700+ yrds WOW 6 tds !!!! But he is ready to play now.