IMO there is no question we need a #1 WR as a top priority.

But looking at the crop of WR's in the draft...there are 3-4 guys who are all worthy of consideration....but none are clear 'best in show' guys.

I would be fine with us drafting Keenan Allen, Cordarelle Patterson, Terrance Williams as our guy. I wouldn't be upset with any one of them....even Justin Hunter, Tavon Austin would be alright.

So why use the 12th pick on any of them? We can easily get one of the above in the 2nd round.

So I think we need to accept that they will sign a FA WR and draft one in the 2nd/3rd round and they will use the #12 pick on another area of need.

CB, DE, ILB are all areas of need that could be satisfied with the #12 pick.

So time for me to start looking at other guys. Xavier Rhodes? Exekial Ansah? Manti Teo?

realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IMO there is no question we need a #1 WR as a top
> priority.
>
> But looking at the crop of WR's in the
> draft...there are 3-4 guys who are all worthy of
> consideration....but none are clear 'best in show'
> guys.
>
> I would be fine with us drafting Keenan Allen,
> Cordarelle Patterson, Terrance Williams as our
> guy. I wouldn't be upset with any one of
> them....even Justin Hunter, Tavon Austin would be
> alright.
>
> So why use the 12th pick on any of them? We can
> easily get one of the above in the 2nd round.
>
> So I think we need to accept that they will sign a
> FA WR and draft one in the 2nd/3rd round and they
> will use the #12 pick on another area of need.
>
> CB, DE, ILB are all areas of need that could be
> satisfied with the #12 pick.
>
> So time for me to start looking at other guys.
> Xavier Rhodes? Exekial Ansah? Manti Teo?

I'm with you realist.

Even if we take a WR in the first, there's no guarantee, in fact history tells us he won't be a major impact player as a rookie and might not get there until his 3rd season...if at all.

We can get a #1 WR in free agency.

I think we should draft a WR as well but not in the first round. I'd look for a good value WR in the 2nd or 3rd.

Agree take the best DE or DB, then take the WR in round 2, unless we feel we can get a good pass rusher & DB in round 2-3

need to look at Jordan Reed and a RB also, Miller is nice but Thomas is a big ?? need to trade him for Chris Ivory or sign Ivory as an FA!

I don't believe Ireland has drafted a WR earlier then rd3 since he has been our GM.. And I believe the only 3rd rounder was Patrick Turner.. We don't have a number 1 because, we haven't gone after one other then Marshall via Trade.. Haven't we learned that if another team is willing to let a number 1 WR walk there is normally a good reason... I just hope Ireland can draft a #1 WR in rd 1 or 2 and hopefully double down and get more then 1 in the first 3 rds...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

I don't consider greg jennings, mike wallace or even d bowe "garbage." All are better than whatever WR can get at #12 and that frees us up to spend the #12 on bpa

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't consider greg jennings, mike wallace or
> even d bowe "garbage." All are better than
> whatever WR can get at #12 and that frees us up to
> spend the #12 on bpa


I am not saying they are garbage, just that there are reasons why the teams would let them go. It also means we are going to dedicate a bunch of money to sign one of them. They are all looking for pay days.. I think we should try and sign a good FA wide receiver, but worry about a huge payday to a WR,another team, who knows him best wasn't willing to make and let him walk... Kind of like the situation with Jake Long.. If we let him walk and aren't willing to grant him a huge payday, wouldn't you think we had the best insight into why the risk isn't worth the money... Yet some other team might be willing to pay him 13 million a year and the fan base will be jumping up and down in excitement to get him... Yet there is a lot of risk involved as to whether he will be worth that type of cap investment..

Drafting a WR has its own set of risk but both roads have risk involved and if you can build through the draft you are way better off IMO...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder, thanks for giving me a rest. It's what I've been preaching all along.

The bust rate on WRs is very high. Guys rarely face press coverage in college. They are usually not asked to run a full route tree. And the routes they do run, and have had ingrained in them, are not run the same way in the NFL. They are not asked to read defenses on the fly and run option routes. There is a huge learning curve for them. And it's really difficult to get that pick right. How many WRs were taken ahead of TY Hilton? And he led all rookie WRs in yards per catch and TDs, and was second in yardage.

That's why you hire a good GM, who can make that type of call.. If your GM can't identify and select a number 1 WR in 5+ years, you probably don't have the right GM.. And paying 50 million+ to a FA WR in the decline of his career or other issues, isn't necessarily what is best for your team either. It just says your GM doesn't know how to find that guy in the best way possible for the team, which is the draft..

Also if it is so hard to find a stud WR in the draft then why would Green Bay, Steelers or KC knowingly let such a hard find walk right out the door... For no reason, they just want to help out the Dolphins?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

There is little doubt that Green Bay and Pitt will be drafting WRs to replace Wallace and Jennings. With Rodgers and Rothlisburger throwing to them they will develop quickly. Wallace and Jennings won't be missed.

What I am saying is.....ANY of them will do.

If there are 4 WR's that grade out equally....why pay the highest price?

trust me...I see WR as our #1 priority and have said so many times. But why use the #12 pick on 1 of those guys when that same guy may very well be available in the 2nd round. And if not him...one of the others that grades out similarly.

Using the #12 on a starting corner and then the 2nd rounder on one of the guys in consideration improves us in 2 spots.

Signing Wallace, Jennings, or Bowe isn't signing someones cast-offs like when we signed Chad Johnson...it is siging guys that the team can't afford....like when we lost Welker.

Sign a veteran & draft a rookie or two and we are improved.

I would love to see him draft a couple as well.

IMO, we should draft DE,WR,CB, WR,LB with our first 5 picks.

Exactly!

Sign one of: Jennings,Bowe, Wallace
Draft one of: Allen, Patterson, Williams, Hunter, Austin,

Re-sign Hartline

add in Bess and we have a very different WR corp.

And a 1st rounder at DE,CB or LB

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Also if it is so hard to find a stud WR in the
> draft then why would Green Bay, Steelers or KC
> knowingly let such a hard find walk right out the
> door... For no reason, they just want to help out
> the Dolphins?

For simple reasons:

Green Bay is letting Jennings go because they are a frugal organization and they have FOUR other quality, starting NFL WR's on their roster already, and a couple of guys they are grooming. With that type of depth at WR they don't have to spend money on that position. They can focus their resources improving the team in other, more needy areas.

If Jennings was their only good WR, they'd pay him.


Pitt is another fugal organization and they are paying antonio Brown $8mill a year at WR. They, and in reality NO organization, is going to pay $18+ mill a year to its starting WR's.


Just because players are hitting the free agent market doesnt mean they aren't valuable players. Sometimes its a numbers game,and sometimes it just comes down to finances.

While agree that the GM needs to be able to draft his own playmakers....

Anquin Boldin was a great acquisition for the Ravens
Welker to the Patriots
Piere Garcon has helped RG3 in Washington
Vincent Jackson had a career year in Tampa


I think the key is to get the guy before he turns 30. Then you get 3 or 4 solid seasons out of him and hopefully have developed your draft picks.

realist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Exactly!
>
> Sign one of: Jennings,Bowe, Wallace
> Draft one of: Allen, Patterson, Williams, Hunter,
> Austin,
>
> Re-sign Hartline
>
> add in Bess and we have a very different WR corp.
>
> And a 1st rounder at DE,CB or LB


Agreed realist. That makes the most sense.

We have a lot of holes to fill. Can't fill them all in the draft. Some have to be done in free agency.

We need a WR who is better than Hartline out of the gate. The chances of finding that in the draft are slim. The chances of getting that in free agency this year are pretty good.

If there were a ton of pass rushers on the FA market that might change the equation. But as a GM you have to look at your needs and whats in the FA market and the draft and design a plan of attack.

Best plan of attack for us is to find a WR who makes an immediate impact and the best place for that this year is FA.

That allows us to concentrate on BPA with our first instead of feeling an urgency to fill a gaping WR hole we didn't address in free agency.

One thing I'd add to your 1st round shopping list is OT, presuming we don't re-sign Jake Long.

FA WR (and a FA guard)...then 1st round should be BPA from: OT, CB, Pass Rusher, FS.

The rumor is Ireland offered a low-ball contract to Long which is the right move at this time. Our line was not good with Long and did not miss him at all when he got hurt.

Instead of giving him an 7-8 mil deal (assuming he would sign it), why not give 9 mil to Sebastion Vollmer who has clearly outplayed Long over the last two years. He is also a RT.

Martin seems to be better at LT than RT so why not leave him there. Does anyone really think Long is going to accept a low deal or a switch to RT when he can cash in elsewhere?

Obviously the best option is to draft a RT for a rookie contract but that is easier said than done. We supposedly got a steal in Martin last year after he dropped to the 2nd round. He was able to start but he was not good at times. The hope is that he will get better as he adds functional strength and experience but the chances of us finding a starting RT outside of the first round are pretty slim.

It won't matter one bit if we sign 5 franchise WR's this year if Tannehill is laying on his back or teams are shutting our run game down with their front 6 or 7.

Rumor is Jennings wants over 8 mil a year and no way in hell Ireland is paying that for an aging, declining player.

Wallace wants 10 plus and probably not much different for Bowe.

We are going to have to pay a big money deal to either a T & WR or draft one and sign one. Otherwise we are in for 20 mil between two players. We still have to resign Hartline who is probably the best option in FA as far as price, familiarity and talent. That means we would have to sign two FA WR's.

Sounds to me like Fasano will be resigned and we may draft another TE. I hope JI is not counting too much on Egnew.

I still say trading down to get a comparible player and more picks is our best option. The anticipation is driving me crazy.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

I think we take the best available at #1 and agree it may very well not be a WR. There will be good wr available in the second rnd. I am not against adding another OL w/ the #1 pick.

If there isnt a pass threat that is worth the number 12 pick, I dont suggest we reach... I would be just as happy selecting a CB who might be more worth the 12 spot.
That being said, whichever player Ireland believes to be his highest rated pass threat... He better go and get him. Target him and then make sure you get him... Don't let someone else steal him from you and then settle for what was available down the road... Not this year.... We have alot of good picks, Ireland should be able to get the players he wants with so many early picks.... .

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crowder52 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > Also if it is so hard to find a stud WR in the
> > draft then why would Green Bay, Steelers or KC
> > knowingly let such a hard find walk right out
> the
> > door... For no reason, they just want to help
> out
> > the Dolphins?
>
> For simple reasons:
>
> Green Bay is letting Jennings go because they are
> a frugal organization and they have FOUR other
> quality, starting NFL WR's on their roster
> already, and a couple of guys they are grooming.
> With that type of depth at WR they don't have to
> spend money on that position. They can focus
> their resources improving the team in other, more
> needy areas.
>
> If Jennings was their only good WR, they'd pay
> him.
>
>
> Pitt is another fugal organization and they are
> paying antonio Brown $8mill a year at WR. They,
> and in reality NO organization, is going to pay
> $18+ mill a year to its starting WR's.
>
>
> Just because players are hitting the free agent
> market doesnt mean they aren't valuable players.
> Sometimes its a numbers game,and sometimes it just
> comes down to finances.


If you have 4 star WR's which one do you let walk and why? You chose 3 other guys over him why? You chose to pay Antonio Brown over Wallace, why? Wallace had a bad year last year as well... Dwayne Bowe, I like him, but he has alot of the qualities of Brandon Marshall good and bad, and you let him walk.... Why will Bowe work out different the Marshall?

I am not suggesting they arent valuable, just overpriced and questions marks.... SImilar to what might happen to Jake Long.... Jake is a valuable player, but could very well be overpriced and comes with question marks to which ever team retains his services.......

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Wallace did not have a bad year in 2011 which was the year before they offered him the same contract they offered Brown. Wallace just wanted more than the 8 mil.

The Steelers are old school. It's their way or the highway. You either take what we offer or hit the road.

Bowe will be 29 years old this year and has a reputation for not always taking care of his body.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2013 06:22AM by eesti.

Bowe is not a special player. He has been KC's only real receiving threat since they lost Gonzo and they have had a truly incredible running game for much of his time there. He had one incredible year (TD wise) among some solid ones. But he's not the fastest, smartest, most physically dominant, etc. There's nothing that makes him truly special.

Wallace is truly special in terms of combining truly elite speed and production. He's younger. My only real concern with him is that PIT FAs seem to never be the same for their next team.

Jennings brings declining production, older age but knowledge of the WCO. I'd like to have him, but not at top dollar price.

If I'm choosing just one, and WR is my top priority, I probably pick Wallace.

My twist: if Hartline and Jennings are priced similarly by the market (how the average Joe like us might know that prior to their respective signings, I don't know) would you rather have:
- Wallace, Jennings, 2nd round pick, Bess OR
- Wallace, Hartline, 2nd round pick, Bess?

Hartline had a career year for yards, but his TD production is abysmal. Jennings has taken a back seat in GB and his production has declined and he's older. To be honest, I think our team is stronger for the next 2-3 years with Jennings.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sigh. So we go ahead like we have for the last
> decade, looking to make ourselves fat off of
> somebody else's garbage.
>
> If you are saying these receivers are not worth a
> 1st round draft, then that's one thing.
>
> If you are saying that they are 1) our top need
> and 2) justifiable as a first round draft choice,
> you take one of them.
>
> You don't say, "Well, I can go to Goodwill or the
> Salvation Army and pick up something meanwhile let
> me draft that questionable guy in the 4th round
> and I'll be set at that position."
>
> Everyone talks about how many years it takes a
> wide receiver to be accomplished. Tell that to
> Duper and Clayton.

*******************************************************

Drafting a WR and expecting great production from him in the first season is, in most cases, wishful thinking. There are no "superstar, sure-thing" WRs in this year's draft. Miami's best bet is to get that #1 WR thru FA and draft one of these upper echelon WRs in the 2nd. After all, Miami does have two 2nd rounders.

Not so sure that signing Wallace will be "someone else's garbage." He could be considered a top tier WR. Hopefully, if Miami does sign him, he plays like one.

What everyone is saying is that those WRs in the draft are worth first round picks, but not in the early rounds. Maybe late in the first would be a good spot for them. The majority of those guys that were mentioned will go in the 2nd round.

BTW, Wallace cannot be bought at Goodwill.

If I recollect correctly, both Duper and Clayton didn't do much their first year with the Fins. Clayton, I believe, was mostly a kick returner.

Anyway, bottom line....Miami needs to sign the top FA WR and draft one of the top guys in the 2nd round.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sigh. So we go ahead like we have for the last
> decade, looking to make ourselves fat off of
> somebody else's garbage.
>
> If you are saying these receivers are not worth a
> 1st round draft, then that's one thing.
>
> If you are saying that they are 1) our top need
> and 2) justifiable as a first round draft choice,
> you take one of them.
>
> You don't say, "Well, I can go to Goodwill or the
> Salvation Army and pick up something meanwhile let
> me draft that questionable guy in the 4th round
> and I'll be set at that position."
>
> Everyone talks about how many years it takes a
> wide receiver to be accomplished. Tell that to
> Duper and Clayton.


Mark Duper, as a second round pick, played in exactly 2 games as a rookie, and 0 catches.

Mark Clayton, as a rookie, had 6 catches.

Someone mentioned Jake Long above. That's a great mention.

Know why?

If this was Jake Long WITHOUT THE INJURIES AND DECLINING PERFORMANCES in his contract renewal year, no way do we let him go.

On the other hand, Jake, although a pro bowler, comes off of injuries and is in decline in his performance.

That is what Crowder and I are saying about the free agent WRs on the market. No way do you, Truth, let a pro bowl performer, or maybe Hall of Fame, go in free agency just because you have some pretty good promising looking guys backing him up.

But you probably would on second thought. I've always said you think exactly like Ireland.

If there is an intercontinental ballistic bidding war for a free agent that wants the money and every team in the nfl nearly is involved, then THAT'S THE TYPE OF FREE AGENT worth signing and (more importantly) worth RELYING ON TO FILL A WOEFULLY CRITICAL NEED YOU HAVE. Kind of a type of guy that Mike Ditka thought he was getting when he traded his entire draft for Ricky Williams.

A block buster.

If you ain't doing that, you're dumpster diving.

Yeah, and few football players all around perform like an all pro in their rookie years. Tannehill ain't. Marino did but he was a phenom.

Why pass on a Duper or Clayton in their rookie years just to get somebody else that another team was willing to let walk.

Doesn't that even disturb you a little bit? They are letting the guy walk and the best (not that's it's good but that it's the only explanation offered) explanation is that "well, we've got a couple of guys on the bench that we feel have potential."

Naww... despite this trade in and trade out era, nobody but Ireland is stupid enough to let a great player go at the beginning of his prime (or in the middle of it) just to take a chance on promising but unproven guys on the bench. Thus garbage. You know what garbage is???????????? It's something you are willing to throw out.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The rumor is Ireland offered a low-ball contract
> to Long which is the right move at this time. Our
> line was not good with Long and did not miss him
> at all when he got hurt.
>
> Instead of giving him an 7-8 mil deal (assuming he
> would sign it), why not give 9 mil to Sebastion
> Vollmer who has clearly outplayed Long over the
> last two years. He is also a RT.
>
> Martin seems to be better at LT than RT so why not
> leave him there. Does anyone really think Long is
> going to accept a low deal or a switch to RT when
> he can cash in elsewhere?
>
> Obviously the best option is to draft a RT for a
> rookie contract but that is easier said than done.
> We supposedly got a steal in Martin last year
> after he dropped to the 2nd round. He was able to
> start but he was not good at times. The hope is
> that he will get better as he adds functional
> strength and experience but the chances of us
> finding a starting RT outside of the first round
> are pretty slim.
>
> It won't matter one bit if we sign 5 franchise
> WR's this year if Tannehill is laying on his back
> or teams are shutting our run game down with their
> front 6 or 7.
>
> Rumor is Jennings wants over 8 mil a year and no
> way in hell Ireland is paying that for an aging,
> declining player.
>
> Wallace wants 10 plus and probably not much
> different for Bowe.
>
> We are going to have to pay a big money deal to
> either a T & WR or draft one and sign one.
> Otherwise we are in for 20 mil between two
> players. We still have to resign Hartline who is
> probably the best option in FA as far as price,
> familiarity and talent. That means we would have
> to sign two FA WR's.
>
> Sounds to me like Fasano will be resigned and we
> may draft another TE. I hope JI is not counting
> too much on Egnew.
>
> I still say trading down to get a comparible
> player and more picks is our best option. The
> anticipation is driving me crazy.

****************************************************

$9M to a RT? I believe that is LT money. But agreed, we do need to get another OT, even if Long resigns (which I don't think he will). There will be some team out there stupid enough to pay Long what he is asking.

Oh, BTW, for a long time now, that's all I hear from players...."I'm playing for the love of the game." Yeah, right, as long as a big check is included.

Not sure what Jennings wants, but he isn't going to get it. Saw an article today where he graded out to a C+. A C+ receiver for $8M? Don't think so. Plus he's been injured and his age is a factor. I just can't figure out why these guys can't understand that concept.

Forget Bowe. Not the type of player Philbin wants. Can only spend the big bucks on one WR, and that will be Wallace. If Miami can't get him, not sure what they will do.

We definitely have to resign Hartline. Miami can't break the bank on him, which I doubt they would do anyway, and I really don't think he will go crazy on his asking price. He'll be back in the fold.

I agree in that Fasano (should) be back. No other team is going to offer him the big bucks. They may go a little more than what his present contract is, but then Miami would probably match/beat it. No doubt that Miami will go after another TE. BTW, Finley from GB also graded out at C+, so he's another one that shouldn't be paid the big, big bucks.

As I've said numerous times, I would trade down ONLY if that top guy that Miami HAS TO HAVE is not there and there is no other comparable position available. Then trade down, but of course, as we all know, Miami must have a trading partner.

tsstamper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bowe is not a special player. He has been KC's
> only real receiving threat since they lost Gonzo
> and they have had a truly incredible running game
> for much of his time there. He had one incredible
> year (TD wise) among some solid ones. But he's
> not the fastest, smartest, most physically
> dominant, etc. There's nothing that makes him
> truly special.
>
> Wallace is truly special in terms of combining
> truly elite speed and production. He's younger.
> My only real concern with him is that PIT FAs seem
> to never be the same for their next team.
>

Bowe is not a special player?

2007- as a rookie, With Damon Huard and Brodie Coyle at QB, Bowe caught 70 passes for 995 yards, and 5 TD.
2008- With Tyler Thigpen, Huard, and Coyle at QB, Bowe caught 86 passes for 1022 yards, and 7 TD.
2009- Matt Cassel at QB, 47 catches for 589 yards, 4 TD. Bowe missed time with an injury and suspension.
2010- Matt Cassel at QB, had 72 catches for 1162 yards, and 15 TDs.
2011- Cassel, Tyler Palko, and Kyle Orton played QB, Bowe caught 81 passes for 1159 yards, and 5 TD.
2012- The Chiefs were the NFL’s worst team, with Cassel and Brady Quinn combining for 8 TD passes and 20 INTs. Bowe had 59 catches for 801 yards, and 3 TD before breaking 2 ribs and missing the final 3 games.

Who did Mike Wallace have at QB? You mentioned that Bowe has been KC's only receiving threat. Who did Mike Wallace have around him? Hines Ward?
Heath Miller? Antonio Brown? That should be exactly the point. Bowe has been very productive, even as the only receiving option. That's more impressive than doing it with a stronger supporting cast.

The Chiefs have had an incredible running game for much of his time there? Two out of the 6 years, they have had a top 10 rushing attach. Once they were 11th, twice they were middle of the pack, and once they were 30th.

You put up those kinds of numbers with Damon Huard, Brody Coyle, Tyler Thigpen, Tyler Palko, Brady Quinn, and Matt Cassell playing QB, and you are a special player. Imagine if he had been playing with a Pro Bowl caliber QB the entire time, instead of different lousy QBs every year?