That statement always made me laugh... If there are say 30 starting qb's through most of history and only like 1 of them were considered a running qb is it no wonder you never saw them in the superbowl. Now that there are like 5 or 6 three make it to the playoffs and now yes yes one is in the superbowl.

I am curious if people still believe such sayings?

yes

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

why?

Because they aren't paid to run the ball their paid to pass it Reppa you're so unsophisticated about this game. The NFL doesn't play street ball with players ab libbing that's why the offensive, and defensive coordinators, and game plans

let's see who wins the game, pocket joe flacco or speedy kapernick.

the game has totally changed from just 2 years ago, teams are designing their offenses around running QBs so maybe things are different now

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Kapernick won't run against Baltimore....period...

Does anyone remember Fran Tarkenton?

A running QB has been to the big dance a couple times. But he was forgotten because he didn't win.

I agree that Keapernick won't run much against Baltimore - not like he did against Green Bay. He doesn't have to, he has a great arm. But he will run once or twice and when he does it will likely be a big play.

------------------------------------------------------------

Miami Dolphins. Always Perfect.

Finshady Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Because they aren't paid to run the ball their
> paid to pass it Reppa you're so unsophisticated
> about this game. The NFL doesn't play street ball
> with players ab libbing that's why the offensive,
> and defensive coordinators, and game plans


No you are paid to win football games, and yes you are making my point... just because a guy has supreme talent to run does not mean that he cant beat you with his arm or that he is not better in the pocket that a "pocket" passer how cant run. Correct me if im wrong but i do believe that colin ran only once vs atlanta and was throwing absolute darts against them after rushing for an NFL record just the week before. and to take it one step further tom terrific had to throw on the run quite a few times vs the raven two of which were on 4th and he threw some of the worst balls i have ever seen. Still think it does not pay to have an athlete that can throw? To be honest i dont understand how this can be debated lol

Of course, Steve Young dispelled this myth years and years ago, so not sure why it's a big deal. The right running QB can one heck of a weapon.

There are two issues with running QBs. One is that you need a guy that is still thinking "pass first." If you have a guy who takes off and runs at the first sign of a pass rush, that guy is missing opportunities down the field. Eventually, this will catch up to him.

The second issue is a matter of health. More important than anything is that your starting QB remains on the field. And running QBs get hurt. Plain and simple.

DolfanKing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone remember Fran Tarkenton?
>
> A running QB has been to the big dance a couple
> times. But he was forgotten because he didn't
> win.
>
Forgotten? Didn't he hold the record for career passing yards until Marino broke it? Didn't FT play in 3 Superbowls? I certainly didn't forget him. It would be like forgetting Marino himself, because neither won Superbowls!

Steve Young.
-2nd all time on the QB rushing list.
-3 super bowl titles.

Fran Tarkenton.
-4th all time on the QB rushing list.
-3 super bowl appearances.

John Elway.
-5th all time on the QB rushing list.
-5 Super Bowl appearances, 2 super bowl titles.

Fact is the 49ers are in the Superbowl because they have a stacked roster (8 pro bowlers) and a good team.

Edited several times because I can't spell



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2013 04:24AM by KB.

True and CK did not run yesterday. He is successful because he has a hell of an arm.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

I've been watching football since the mid 50's. This new breed of quarterback is not a "running quarterback" as to be essentially a Ronnie Brown in a wildcat formation.

This new breed of quarterback is more of a quick read run option quarterback with the mobility and the wheels to pull it off.

This type of quarterback risks no more injury than a pocket passer, unless that pocket passer is a Chad Henne who has no mobility.

Does he risk injury with his leg OTHER THAN THE LEG BEING HIT? Yes, but he could also risk that same injury ...say....running away from a sack or even doing exercises during practice or even walking up the stairs and missing a step.

You can't blame life's accidents on the style of play.

In the final analysis, a "running QB" is simply a plus and we are at the beginning of an era and in about 10 years, a guy won't be able to play QB in the NFL unless he is an RGIII or a Colin Kaepernick.

chrenB : In the final analysis, a "running QB" is simply a plus and we are at the beginning of an era and in about 10 years, a guy won't be able to play QB in the NFL unless he is an RGIII or a Colin Kaepernick.


Thats complete nonesense. Unless receivers do not exist any more there will always be pocket passers.

So you're saying that Colin Kaepernick or RGIII or Ryan Tannehill, who you love so much, cannnot pass the ball?????????????????????????????

I see the problem. Some people on this board think of a "running QB" as being a quarterback who exclusively runs....like Ronnie Brown was in the wildcat.

That quarterback has not existed since the 1940's. Even Fran Tarkenton was a scrambler but there has never been a quarterback who simply runs the ball except in the wildcat.

Don't be stupid. When we talk of a "running QB" in the context of TODAY'S football, we are talking about a guy who is mobile and a threat to run the ball as well as pass, who is a quick read of the defense for purposes of passes but is also a quick read of the defense for open holes he can exploit as a runner.

Such quarterbacks are Kaepernick, Newton, Tannehill, Luck, RGIII, Russell Wilson, to name a few, the only one drafted in the last two years that is starting and is NOT ONE is Brandon Weeden and you see where he is headed.

Well, if you look at their stats (yards and TD's, tangible things not the esoteric and frankly silly 'ratings') you have to look pretty far down the list of 32 starters to see even Newton (#13), much less RGIII, or Wilson (23rd, 24th). AS others have stated, once these guys start to age and or get injured, for WHATEVER reason their running drops off precipitously. Then you just have an average or below average passer for a QB.

You are talking about age and injury, KB, my discussion was about whether they could pass. And yes, if as a quarterback you have 200 yards rushing in a game like a Kaepernick, it just naturally follows that your passing yardage is going to be less.

That's not even philosophy, that's math. Even a football team that makes more yardage passing is going to have less yardage running and vice versa up to the point that it is 50-50.

Now if you talk about completions versus incompletions, then THAT is a relevant stat.

These new guys are just a new version of John Elway but with even more elusiveness and mobility than him and that can't help but be a good thing and that, like it or not, is the future of the quarterbacking position in the NFL.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are talking about age and injury, KB, my
> discussion was about whether they could pass. And
> yes, if as a quarterback you have 200 yards
> rushing in a game like a Kaepernick, it just
> naturally follows that your passing yardage is
> going to be less.
>
> That's not even philosophy, that's math. Even a
> football team that makes more yardage passing is
> going to have less yardage running and vice versa
> up to the point that it is 50-50.
>
> Now if you talk about completions versus
> incompletions, then THAT is a relevant stat.
>
> These new guys are just a new version of John
> Elway but with even more elusiveness and mobility
> than him and that can't help but be a good thing
> and that, like it or not, is the future of the
> quarterbacking position in the NFL.

200 yards a game running? REALLY? Kapernick only rushed for 400 yards ALL YEAR (playing in 13 games and starting 9 and he was 30th on the passing yards TD list).

And above you said Luck was 'One of these QB's' lol. He had like 200 yards rushing ALL YEAR.

There have ALWAYS been QB's who CAN run. Elway not only is on the top 5 list of all time rushing QB's but he is also in the top 5 all time passing. Same for Tarkenton. They played 30-40 years ago ChyrenB. I know we old guys lose track of time .But your assertion that there is some 'new breed' of QB that will take over the game is crazy.

The guys you are talking about like RGIII, Newton and to a lesser degree Kapernick and Wilson run better than they pass. They are young guys with dynamic personalities (or lots of tattos lol!) so they make the news and the highlight reels, but they are NOT elite NFL passers and for that reason when their legs go (sooner than later) they are average. Cunningham was that way, Vick is that way. They both rank in the top 5 rushing all time but are 36th and 97th respectively in passing yards.

As long as there are receivers and the forward pass is legal throwing skills will matter more than running skills in an NFL QB.

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChrenB its foolish to think like this.....
>
> here is what you said again
>
> chrenB : In the final analysis, a "running QB" is
> simply a plus and we are at the beginning of an
> era and in about 10 years, a guy won't be able to
> play QB in the NFL unless he is an RGIII or a
> Colin Kaepernick.
>

RESPONSE: This is as simple as I can make it for you, SamSam. The question is how do you DEFINE a "running QB"? If you define it as just "a quarterback who only runs the ball" then that hasn't occurred since the 1940's when the forward pass was invented.


>
> RG111 is a scrambling QB and look how long he
> lasted.
>
> I believe he is going to have surgery to his knee
> his rookie season. So much for scrambling QBs.


RESPONSE: As we have pointed out, his injury has really nothing to do with contact or being tackled in the traditional sense of the word.

Even Marino, as pure a passer as there ever was, could have suffered the same injury because AT SOME POINT, EVERY QUARTERBACK WILL BE FORCED TO SCRAMBLE.

It's not like RGIII runs the ball on every play and puts himself out to be tackled. Once he breaks through the defensive line, it's a WHOLE DIFFERENT thing than taking the snap from center, tucking the ball under your arm and running.

And where did you get your information when you say RGIII's career is over and he "didn't last that long."?

KB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> 200 yards a game running? REALLY? Kapernick only
> rushed for 400 yards ALL YEAR (playing in 13 games
> and starting 9 and he was 30th on the passing
> yards TD list).

Kaepernick rushed for 181 yards (close enough?) in the game against the Packers.
>
> And above you said Luck was 'One of these QB's'
> lol. He had like 200 yards rushing ALL YEAR.

Again, you guys JUST CAN'T GRASP the distinction between what I called a "running QB" being one who is a rusher and one who can change a covered passing play into a gain with his feet.

I'll bet you are completely lost when you hear the announcers talking about the need to contain Russell Wilson and Colin Kaepernick when the passing play is covered.

You are stuck with thinking that these are the ole wishbone days.

That's not what this new breed is.


>
> There have ALWAYS been QB's who CAN run. Elway
> not only is on the top 5 list of all time rushing
> QB's but he is also in the top 5 all time passing.
> Same for Tarkenton. They played 30-40 years ago
> ChyrenB. I know we old guys lose track of time
> .But your assertion that there is some 'new
> breed' of QB that will take over the game is
> crazy.

RESPONSE: Fran was not a runner but a "SCRAMBLER." There is a BIG difference. A scrambler usually does not even rush FOR A SINGLE YARD. He runs around in the backfield and avoids getting sacked UNTIL HIS RECEIVERS GET OPEN AND THEN HE NAILS THE PASS.

THAT'S WHY FRAN was at the top of passing.

But Fran Tarkenton was NO WAY the same as Cam Newton, Russell Wilson, RGIII, or Colin Kaepernick.

He brought time with his legs IN ORDER TO GET THE PASS OFF, NOT TO GAIN YARDAGE.

Elway, like Luck who he often has been compared with (BTW since you consider Luck a pocket passer) was just a guy ahead of his time and Cam Newton was the next coming of his type. So, Just because you had one what I call "running qb" in 1983, does not mean either that 1) Elway played the position the same way they did before the forward pass was invented OR 2) that guys like Elway have been around SINCE Elway.


>
> The guys you are talking about like RGIII, Newton
> and to a lesser degree Kapernick and Wilson run
> better than they pass.

RESPONSE: But the point is, they pass when it is open and when it is not open, they ARE NOT CONFINED TO SIMPLY THROWING THE BALL OUT OF BOUNDS LIKE TOM BRADY DOES.

THEY have a second option. They can hurt you with their feet.

Prior to the coming of this breed, coaches would tell them, "If it's not there, throw the ball into the cheap seats and protect yourself."

Colin and Russell and Ryan Tannehill and yes, to a great extent Luck, don't do that. If they can get a first with their feet, they take off.


They are young guys with
> dynamic personalities (or lots of tattos lol!) so
> they make the news and the highlight reels, but
> they are NOT elite NFL passers and for that reason
> when their legs go (sooner than later) they are
> average. Cunningham was that way, Vick is that
> way.


RESPONSE: Being in prison had just a teensy weensy bit to do with Vick's lack of longevity rather than his style of play or any injury to him.

Randall Cunningham was never really known as a running quarterback. He was athletic and small and frail but his style of football was far more like James Harris of the Rams than it was like Michael Vick or RGIII. He was a traditional drop back passing quarterback for the most part.

They both rank in the top 5 rushing all time
> but are 36th and 97th respectively in passing
> yards.
>
> As long as there are receivers and the forward
> pass is legal throwing skills will matter more
> than running skills in an NFL QB.

RESPONSE: Can a quarterback make it without having an accurate passing arm??? ABSOLUTELY NOT and nobody on this board has said so.

Only you guys who are on the other side of the issue have said that.

But Russell Wilson IS DAMN ACCURATE! Remember that pass against the Packers at the end of a game in the regular season against the Packers???????????? That was a 40 yard bomb he threw on the dead run, regardless of who you think caught it.

Same thing for Colin Kaepernick, same thing for RGIII, Same thing for Ryan Tannehill.

Let me ask you a question.

Do you really mean to tell me you can't see the difference between Ryan Tannehill (FORGET THE PASS, JUST TALKING ABOUT WHEN HE ROLLS OUT OF THE POCKET) and the multitude of quarterbacks we have had after Marino.

Don't you even see the run threat dimension he has?

No, it's you who is stuck back in 1983 because you really can't see the difference between Cam Newton and this new breed of quarterbacks and all the guys who existed between him and John Elway and John Elway and the guys who came before him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2013 02:54PM by ChyrenB.

It's ridiculous to suggest that the NFL has changed for good. Years ago ALL QBs were "running" QBs. Then teams started to pass and slowly QBs who were really good at passing but not-so-good at running started to run up huge passing statistics (Fouts, Marino, Aikman), but there were still successful scrambling QBs (Montana, Young, Elway) in the league.

As for right now, for all the talk about RGIII and Kaepernick, there still is Brady, P Manning, E Manning, Flacco, Brees...all of which are textbook pocket passers.

Fact is, things will continue to go back and forth as teams make adjustments. Years ago nearly everyone played a 3-4 defense...but the Cowboys of the 90's popularized the 4-3...so most teams shifted...and then shifted back...now we're going back to a 4-3 again!!

It's chancy to say that a prediction is ridiculous.

The reason is that if you are wrong and the prediction comes true, that makes you ridiculous.

If on the other hand, you simply say that you don't see the trend as lasting, that's a separate thing.

Right now, of the QBs that came out this year, only Brandon Weeden appears to be the classic pocket passer. Russell Wilson, RGIII, Ryan Tannehill, and to a lesser extent Andrew Luck all make plays with their feet when the pass completion is not there.

If you think that that is just a fluke, then you're looking but just not seeing.

Again, there is a difference between the scrambler of ole, which Fran Tarkenton was and Elway, who had the wheels to make the first down if his passing targets were covered.

No way in hell was Montana ever a running QB as Newton, Kaepernick,etc. and he wasn't even a "scrambler" like Fran Tarkenton.

wow missed alot lol, must say i read alot of rediculous things on this board so lets compare RG3 to luck in passing and rushing...

Passing:
1) Someone explain why RG3 is considered a guy that can only run when in college he threw for 4293 total yards, 37 TDs/ 6int compared to the great andrew luck in college 3517 total yards, 37 TDs/ 10ints... Further he beat luck for heisman and rookie of the year why? Because he is the better "PASSER!!!". Lets look at him verse the great luck in the NFL

RG3 : 12.4 (yds per completion), 20 TD and 5 int, 65.6 (comp %), passer rating of 102.4 (of starters only Aaron Rogers and Peyton Manning is higher)
Luck: 12.9 (yds per completion), 23 TD and 18 int, 54.1 (comp %), Passer rating of 76.5 (28th out of 32 qb's!!!)

RG3 had much better PASSING numbers than luck in college and again he has much better PASSING numbers than luck in the NFL. So please someone explain this notion that RG3 cant read defenses or throw but somehow luck can even though every important "PASSER" stat (int, comp% and qbr) for Luck is significantly worst?

Rushing:
2) Luck is 6'4'' 235 and runs a 4.6!!! (just for comparison Cam Newton also runs a 4.6!!!) Luck is an incredible athlete so for people who want to think he is some "pure" or even a pocket passer need to either get a clue or watch him play. Lets look at the number shall we... he is 3rd!! this season for rushing TD by all qb's, behind RG3 and Cam newton (yes he has more "RUSHING" TD's than Wilson and Colin!!). oh you thought i was done lol... guess who's 5th in "RUSHING" attempts, behind Cam, RG3, Colin and Wilson So whats so different about Luck that he is not bunched in this group of "running qb"? The funny thing is he runs just as much yet has the WORST "passing" stats of the bunch (cam, wilson, RG3, colin) lol? SO PLEASE!!! someone explain what im missing...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2013 09:36PM by Miami Reppa.

Chren Quote: And where did you get your information when you say RGIII's career is over and he "didn't last that long."?


I wish him the best....I was just guessing figuratively speaking....But IMHO he will never be the same after that injury..

I wish him the best again. I have nothing against the kid.

Reppa,

I always like your postings man. They have started some good debates. I disagree w/ you on this one. I believe the reason the young running qb's had so much success this year was that there was a lack of film on them. If you noticed on Sunday the Falcons did a terrific job of blocking the running lanes on Kaperknick. Just like they did w/ the wildcat when nfl D coordinators get enough exosure to an offense they come up w/ a deterent. Having a qb that you purposely implement into your running game is qb suicide. See RG III.

Yes but I think that you are missing my point. Everyone on this board and media think that just because a guy can run that means that he cant pass. This might surprise you but I hope that the league figures out this "pistol" nonsences. Wilons, colin, cam and expecially RG3 are legitamate "passers" and should not be treated like gimics.

The coaching staff should be using there running ability to compliment there ability to pass. Instead this new offenses force them to run as if they cant pass.

wildcat: we are not talking about a running back passing the ball we are talking about legitamate passers passing the ball... huge difference.

So my point is 1) these guys CAN beat you with there arms, if you dont believe that then I would have to say you have not watched them play (yes ATL stopped running lanes and colin still beat them with his arm) 2) More importantly why is Luck not considered a "running qb" when he runs just as much as the other 4 AND has worst passing numbers? Seems rather selective huh...

Reppa wrote: Everyone on this board and media think that just because a guy can run that means that he cant pass.


Reppa what makes you believe anybody said if a qb is a scrambling qb....he can't pass.

I think nobody is saying that. At least here? i think what people are referring more is injuries.

Also I have not read the media saying a scrambling QB cannot pass.

Miami Reppa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes but I think that you are missing my point.
> Everyone on this board and media think that just
> because a guy can run that means that he cant
> pass. This might surprise you but I hope that the
> league figures out this "pistol" nonsences.
> Wilons, colin, cam and expecially RG3 are
> legitamate "passers" and should not be treated
> like gimics.
>
> The coaching staff should be using there running
> ability to compliment there ability to pass.
> Instead this new offenses force them to run as if
> they cant pass.
>
> wildcat: we are not talking about a running back
> passing the ball we are talking about legitamate
> passers passing the ball... huge difference.
>
> So my point is 1) these guys CAN beat you with
> there arms, if you dont believe that then I would
> have to say you have not watched them play (yes
> ATL stopped running lanes and colin still beat
> them with his arm) 2) More importantly why is Luck
> not considered a "running qb" when he runs just as
> much as the other 4 AND has worst passing numbers?
> Seems rather selective huh...

That's not what "everyone" believes Reppa.

The last two years excluded, history shows that qb's who are not pocket passers have a very tough time becoming pocket passers once injuries or Father Time rob them of their elite mobility and force them to play from he pocket. History also shows that with rare exception, these more mobile guys fall off in production sooner than pocket passers.

Perhaps this group is different. I, for one, think a couple of them will break the mold.

RG3 was a pocket passer in college who could run. I think he can be that in the pros as well, even with injuries. I'm just not sure he can be a top 5 passer if injuries take away his mobility.

I think kaepernick has the skills to be a picket passer.

Newtons immaturity and intelligence worry me. He has the tools to be a picket passer but...

Wilson would be Dave Kreig if you took away his wheels. Most of his big plays come outside the picket or when he's on the move. I think his production falls of dramatically if injuries forced him to be a pocket passer.