What does it say when Randy Mueller drafted as many probowlers for this team in one year as Ireland has been able to do outside the kicker position in his entire 5 year tenure as GM of the team...
SOlia and Long... I agree Ireland is better then Mueller but really the facts are the facts..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In memory of chrenB......He aint dead or anything
> but just to make his day.....Pic...

Yeah, I think the appropriate opening is "With warm regards to ChyrenB"...........

at least it would have made me feel less hinky.

When I read that I yelled, "Dammit, Debrah, I just read that I am dead and that's another thing you forgot to tell me!"

This debate is pretty funny, the people that want to hate on him are gonna hate on him no matter what, that alone might be the single reason Ross should of fired him with Sparano, he's by far not one of the "elite" GM's in the game right now, but guess what? There's only about 3 or 4 of them guys around.
He's a very average GM who IMO is growing into the job and getting better with experience, you guys want to talk about letting a young talented guy leave Miami only to go onto to bigger and better things with another team, you better start worrying about Ireland doing just that.
You guys bitch when he makes a safe pick and it pans out (Long/Pouncey), then you bitch when he takes a chance on a game changer and it doesn't (Gates). Look back at BNF's draft list he linked, very few years is there more then one/two names that stand out as above average players let alone game changers (even going back to the Shula years).
It's easy for us to second guess every move he makes, but I am absolutely 100% certain nobody on this board could even come close to doing half as good a job as him.

I could

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

BigNastyFish Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Here's the point:
>
> Just note the fact that our drafts have been
> trending in the right direction
>
> Miami Dolphin Draft History

Reviewing the draft history from 1999 to 2007 and Ireland's years of 2008 to 2012, it does appear that Ireland did better. However those earlier draft years got an "F" and Ireland gets a D plus.

Try looking at from 1990 through 1998 and compare Ireland's years with those. It doesn't stack up.

So BNF, call it trending better if you choose. I say it sucks and there is no reason that it should get better.

I mean Pouncey Jake Long and RT (?) in all those years.

Can you really say that since he did three good picks in 5 drafts, that makes him better than a guy who did so poorly in 9 drafts?

I mean, are we lowering our standards?

Why not measure him up against earlier years.

I mean, we expect our team to someday duplicate 1972. Should we forget that and just try our best to beat what we did last year?

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What does it say when Randy Mueller drafted as
> many probowlers for this team in one year as
> Ireland has been able to do outside the kicker
> position in his entire 5 year tenure as GM of the
> team...
> SOlia and Long... I agree Ireland is better then
> Mueller but really the facts are the facts..


What does it say when Randy Mueller drafted as many probowlers for this team in one year as Ireland has been able to do outside the kicker position in his entire 5 year tenure as GM of the team...
SOlia and Long... I agree Ireland is better then Mueller but really the facts are the facts..

This is a prime example of how freaking NUTS you guys are...

Soliai was a PROJECT that developed into a legit player, but there's like ZERO credibility in giving kudos to Mueller for this dude being "ProBowl." That's just ridiculous because he was molded into a pro (let alone a "ProBowler" by Parcells and mostly Jason Ferguson (who Parcells brought in specifically to be a mentor for Soliai who was a total bust to that point). Beyond that "Long" was drafted by Parcells/Ireland so you better fact check a tad better before you start revising history to fit your agenda.

here is the run down of the players Ireland took. A really weak list when you look at it. When you consider all the good players we passed on (thru dumb trades like Odrik, Long over RYan, etc., Vontae over Nicks, passing on the deepest TEs ever in a year we needed one an Graham, Hernandez, Gronk were available), this list is even worse than it seems. And not a single IMPACT player on O or D (OL do not count as impact players)

Please defend away....



2012
1 8 Ryan Tannehill ---JURY STILL WAY OUT

2012
2 42 Jonathan Martin—CONVERSION TO RT GOING SLOWLY

2012
3 72 Olivier Vernon---INEFFECTIVE IN COLLEGE, DRAFTED BASED ON MEASURABLES

2012
3 78 Michael Egnew---LOOKS SOFT, AND BAD

2012
4 97 Lamar Miller---COULD BE A PLAYER BUT INACTIVE SO FAR

2012
5 155 Josh Kaddu—NOT ON TEAM
2012
6 183 B.J. Cunningham—NOT ON TEAM
2012
7 215 Kheeston Randall—MADE TEAM, BACKUP TYPE

2012
7 227 Rishard Matthews—MADE TEAM, COULD HAVE POTENTIAL


Year Rnd Pick
2011
1 15 Mike Pouncey—HIGHEST DRAFTED CENTER, SO FAR GOOD, NOT GREAT

2011
2 62 Daniel Thomas---TRADED UP TO GET HIM, NOT AS GOOD AS OTHER RBS PIKED LATER, doesn't look good

2011
4 111 Clyde Gates---BUST OFF TEAM

2011
6 174 Charles Clay—INCONSISTENT, SOMETIMES GOOD SOMETIMES BAD

2011
7 231 Frank Kearse—OFF TEAM

2011
7 235 Jimmy Wilson----AVERAGE DB


Year Rnd Pick
2010
1 28 Jared Odrick---SOLID, UNSPECTACUALR, PASSED ON PRO BOWLERS AT POSITIONS OF NEED (FS, TE) TO GET HIM

2010
2 40 Koa Misi---AVERAGE AT BEST, LITTLE IMPACT

2010
3 73 John Jerry—CLINGING TO SPOT BY HIS TEETH
2010
4 119 A.J. Edds---BUST, NEVER PLAYED FOR US
2010
5 145 Nolan Carroll—BAD PLAYER

2010
5 163 Reshad Jones---AVERAGE AT BEST

2010
7 212 Chris McCoy ---NOT IN LEAGUE
2010
7 252 Austin Spitler—BOTTOM END OF ROSTER ST GUY


Year Rnd Pick Pos
2009
1 25 Vontae Davis---DISAPPOINTING, TRADED FOR LESS THAN WE SPENT ON HIM
DB
2009
2 44 Pat White---ALL TIME HORRIBLE BUST
QB
2009
2 61 Sean Smith---INCONSISTENT, COULD BE GOOD BUT SO FOR ONLY AVERAGE
DB
2009
3 87 Patrick Turner---HORRENDUS BUST
WR
2009
4 108 Brian Hartline---SOLID WR
WR
2009
5 161 John Nalbone TE---YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME
2009
5 165 Chris Clemons---AVERAGE
DB
2009
6 181 Andrew Gardner---OUT OF LEAGUE
T
2009
7 214 J.D. Folsom---OUT OF LEAGUE
LB

Year Rnd Pick
2008
1 1 Jake Long---PRO BOWLER BUT HE’S AN OT TAKEN #1 OVERALL

2008
2 32 Phillip Merling---BUST

2008
2 57 Chad Henne--BUST

2008
3 66 Kendall Langford---SOLID UNSPECTACULAR PLAYER ON RAMS NOW

2008
4 110 Shawn Murphy---BUST

2008
6 176 Jalen Parmele---AVERAGE PLAYER STILL IN LEAGUE

2008
6 195 Donald Thomas---THOUGHT HE’D BE GOOD BUT I WAS WRONG

2008
6 204 Lex Hilliard---THINK HE’S OUT OF LEAGUE

2008
7 245 Lionel Dotson—OUT OF LEAUGE

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> 2008
> 6 204 Lex Hilliard---THINK HE’S OUT OF LEAGUE
>
>

Lex appears to be still occupying a spot on the Patriots' roster.
(source: nfl.com)

One of the major themes of this season for me is "How will Philbin's & crew's coaching impact the development of players on the roster?" Soliai is the only player I can think of who genuinely developed under Sparano's coaching. Meanwhile, I can think of tons of young players who didn't appear to reach their potential.

If you think about his drafting, the players who seemed to do well in the system were those who required less coaching (thinking Long, Hartline, Bess, Pouncey, Langford, Odrick). These guys just seemed to step in an perform to their potential when they hit the field. Guys like Sean Smith and Vontae Davis are incredibly athletically gifted but didn't seem to reach their full potential. Unfortunately, in terms of guys drafted high, to get that you often have to pass over much more potential to get the guy who's more NFL ready. For NFL-ready guys later in the draft, they're invariably much less athletically gifted or they'd go much higher. To me, a lot of that's on coaching and maybe even overall philosophy.

It's too early to tell, but Misi probably contributed more in the past game than any previous game in his career. Jerry looks to be trending the right way. Especially prior to his injury and even now, I am looking forward to seeing what Hartline can do in this system with (hopefully) better coaching. Wouldn't it be incredible if our secondary was decent or better featuring 3 young 5th rounders in the rotation? Clay is another one I have my eye on, as almost all of his production last year came in the 2nd half of the season.

I guess my guess is that players Ireland has drafted the past 3 years will look markedly better this year in terms of development than they did with the previous coaching staff.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> samsam3738 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In memory of chrenB......He aint dead or
> anything
> > but just to make his day.....Pic...
>
> Yeah, I think the appropriate opening is "With
> warm regards to ChyrenB"...........
>
> at least it would have made me feel less hinky.
>
> When I read that I yelled, "Dammit, Debrah, I just
> read that I am dead and that's another thing you
> forgot to tell me!"

LMAO

Berk your ratings are obviously 100% subjective and IMO demonstrate some obvious bias in an attempt to underscore your point. For example, your "analysis" of Odrick Misi and Jerry seems quite tainted. And Nolan Carroll is a "bad" player? Bad?

Lamar Miller, "cold be a player?" I remember you loved the pick! C'mon man.

My point is that Ireland is nowhere near as "bad" as guys like you make him out to be.

BNF, yes Nolan Carroll is a bad player. He has yet to make a good play for us, and gets beat like a drum in coverage. How would you define that? Odrick and Jerry are average at best (calling Jerry "average" is pretty chariable I think). If you want to see a "good" first round DE, take a look at JJ Watt. Odrick is light years from that.

Yes I loved the L Miller pick and still do. He was great at UM. It's obvious that he's got a ton of work to do, and I don't think you can judge this year's draft class at all at this point, but he'd need to show something this season or I'd have doubts about it. So I stand by my "could be a player" comment as 100% accurate.

But still I am waiting to hear from you about what playmakers Ireland has drafted in his 5 years picking players for this team. I can't think of one (and again, you can't point to RT or Miller as neither has yet to make a play).

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BigNastyFish Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Oh silly me. I forgot who I was dealing with...
> >
> > Here's the point:
> >
> > Just note the fact that our drafts have been
> > trending in the right direction
> >
> > Miami Dolphin Draft History
> >
> > However, since you seem to want to talk about
> > cast-offs and such, does Reggie Bush doesn't
> count
> > in your parallel universe? I mean we got him for
> a
> > song from another team - and if we had done
> that
> > as opposed to New Orleans Ireland would be
> > scoundrel, yes?
> >
> > ...is it just me, or do things seem to go only
> in
> > one direction with you?
>
>
> No and I have defended Ireland when people have
> even criticized Long, Pouncey and even RT.

Ireland had nothing to do with Long.

------------------------------------------------------------

Miami Dolphins. Always Perfect.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you want to see a "good" first round DE, take a
> look at JJ Watt. Odrick is light years from that.
>

Thank you.

The term "overdraft" is indeed the best way to describe Ireland's drafting style. Has he had a lot of first round busts? Not necessarily. But the team isn't stacked with talent either. And there are areas with big holes (WR, DB ) and no depth (RB and LB ). This roster is a couple first round super stars short of what it should be, and a handful of low round gamers from what it should be. This is all GM.

So, after three years of stocking the fridge Ireland has given us some leftover pizza and a 6 pack of beer. Some people look at this and say Pizza and Beer, cool. Other look at this and realize that won't get us very far.

------------------------------------------------------------

Miami Dolphins. Always Perfect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2012 08:06AM by DolfanKing.

DolfanKing Wrote:

>
> Ireland had nothing to do with Long.

This may be another SamSam moment for you. Long was drafted in 2008. Ireland took over in 2008. I'm pretty sure he was in charge of the draft that year.

If you look above at Berk's post, he has Long as one of Ireland's draftees.

So it is probably you and not me that is wrong about this point of fact.

I am in favor of pinning every pick made here to Ireland even when BP was here, since he certainly had a big role (and later only role) in drafting.

But for Jake Long, I am pretty sure that this was BP all the way. This was the first pick and #1 overall BP made when he took over. He had all offseason to make a decision. I am sure BP wanted Long and that's who we got, regardless of anything Ireland did/did not say on the matter. BP was going to take who he wanted with that #1 overall. Though I bet if Ireland really wanted Matt Ryan, somehow this wouldn've "leaked" out .....

But in fairness to Ireland, I will say he was responsible for Long ,although in this instance, I don't think it is true.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2012 09:34AM by berkeley223.

DolfanKing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> berkeley223 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If you want to see a "good" first round DE, take
> a
> > look at JJ Watt. Odrick is light years from
> that.
> >
>
> Thank you.
>
> The term "overdraft" is indeed the best way to
> describe Ireland's drafting style. Has he had a
> lot of first round busts? Not necessarily. But
> the team isn't stacked with talent either. And
> there are areas with big holes (WR, DB ) and no
> depth (RB and LB ). This roster is a couple first
> round super stars short of what it should be, and
> a handful of low round gamers from what it should
> be. This is all GM.
>
> So, after three years of stocking the fridge
> Ireland has given us some leftover pizza and a 6
> pack of beer. Some people look at this and say
> Pizza and Beer, cool. Other look at this and
> realize that won't get us very far.

When was the last time we had an "impact" first round pick (defined as not an OL). I am struggling to come up with one. OJ McDuffie? he's was good but not a game changing WR. Other than that, we've got only space eaters like Garnder and Bowens, good OL (Long, Puncey, Webb), and busts, going all the way back to marino. Maybe Louis Oliver had his moments.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Peeps are just framing the "argument" in whatever way supports their position so the debate becomes worthless...

My point is simple. Objectively, IMO, the drafts under Ireland have been trending in the right direction. Whereas others seem to believe the entire roster (which is about 90% or more composed of players Ireland brought in) is trash.

In addition, players like Misi, or Smith, or certainly Miller and ALL the really young guys have already been certified to be "junk." In other words there's ZERO credit being acknowledged to Ireland in any way whatsoever because he couldn't possibly bring in a legit player.

Players develop and get a LOT BETTER when their in the right system and receive the right coaching. But somehow a number of your guys don't think there are ANY players on the roster that have significant upside. So I guess you're a bunch of NFL footie ball Amazing Kreskin's!

trending in the right direction compared to what, BNF? maybe in comparison to the Tedd Ginn and Jason Allen drafts, but not in comparison to what good teams have been doing in the draft, not in terms of actually adding impact players to the team, not in terms of putting together a talented roster in 5 years of drafting.
We used to be the pride of the NFL, now standards are so low some actually are defending the GM of a team that will be lucky to win 4 games this year with a roster he is 100% responsible for??

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Most of you dismiss Ireland because you say it is easier to pick someone in the first round.

Look at our 1st picks pre and post Ireland.

before...

Yatil Green
John Avery
J.J. Johnson
Todd Wade
Jamar Fletcher
Seth McKinney
Eddie Moore
Vernon Carey
Ronnie Brown
Jason Allen
Ted Ginn Jr.

What a complete waste. Talk about bad drafting.

Post Ireland

Jake Long
Vontae Davis
Jared Odrick
Mike Pouncey
Ryan Tannehill

still potential to determine there.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

I mean you have to give the devil his due. If you are going to condemn him for his picks as a whole, you have to give him credit for this one pro bowl pick. Now you can argue that maybe he could have gotten Jake in a later round, which is always an iffy and theoretical proposition, but he made the pick.

To tell the truth, we really don't know whether every single pick Ireland made was on the suggestion of some boss, or current player or even made on the recommendation of one of his friends from back home.

Let's keep it simple. He's responsible for the picks made when he was General Manager WHETHER THOSE PICKS BE GOOD OR BAD.

And based on those picks as a whole, I say he did an overall crappy job.

Like I said, eesti, I concede Ireland has done better than from 1999 to 2007. I think the picks you are pointing out occurred during that window.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Most of you dismiss Ireland because you say it is
> easier to pick someone in the first round.
>
> Look at our 1st picks pre and post Ireland.
>
> before...
>
> Yatil Green
> John Avery
> J.J. Johnson
> Todd Wade
> Jamar Fletcher
> Seth McKinney
> Eddie Moore
> Vernon Carey
> Ronnie Brown
> Jason Allen
> Ted Ginn Jr.
>
> What a complete waste. Talk about bad drafting.
>
> Post Ireland
>
> Jake Long
> Vontae Davis
> Jared Odrick
> Mike Pouncey
> Ryan Tannehill
>
> still potential to determine there.

you've got some 2d and 3d rounders thrown in there as "first" picks. I'll stack Pat Turner and Pat White up against Eddie Moore and Todd Wade and Seth McKinney and JJ Johnson

we had a LOT of years where, due to trade for Ricky, or trade downs, we didn't have a 1st rounder. Ireland's picks in Rd 2 and 3 have been horrible.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I mean you have to give the devil his due. If you
> are going to condemn him for his picks as a whole,
> you have to give him credit for this one pro bowl
> pick. Now you can argue that maybe he could have
> gotten Jake in a later round, which is always an
> iffy and theoretical proposition, but he made the
> pick.
>
> To tell the truth, we really don't know whether
> every single pick Ireland made was on the
> suggestion of some boss, or current player or even
> made on the recommendation of one of his friends
> from back home.
>
> Let's keep it simple. He's responsible for the
> picks made when he was General Manager WHETHER
> THOSE PICKS BE GOOD OR BAD.
>
> And based on those picks as a whole, I say he did
> an overall crappy job.

that's what I've been doing. I'll give him credit for Jake, though I think we can all safely assume that BP was not going to delagate his first ever and #1 overall pick with the phins to Ireland. BP would take who he wanted. At least it wasn't Vernon Gholston!

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Folks this is from Wikipedia. This is why I say
> that Ireland was responsible for Jake Long. Now
> whether someone else was his boss be it Bill
> Parcells OR EVEN ROSS THE OWNER actually made the
> pick can be said of EVERY DECISION A GM MAKES.
> But at some point he has to be responsible.
>
> Early years
>
> Ireland began his professional career as a scout
> for the NFL Scouting Combine - a job he served
> from 1994 to 1996. He then became a scout for the
> Kansas City Chiefs, holding the position from 1997
> to 2000.
>
> Dallas Cowboys
>
> In 2001, Ireland became a national scout for the
> Dallas Cowboys. During Ireland's time as a college
> scout, the team drafted four future Pro Bowl
> selections - safety Roy Williams, offensive
> lineman Andre Gurode, cornerback Terence Newman
> and tight end Jason Witten. Ireland served in that
> capacity until 2005, when he was promoted to the
> position of Vice President of College and Pro
> Scouting.
>
> In what would be Ireland's final season with
> Dallas in 2007, the Cowboys went 13-3 and won the
> NFC East title. At the time of his departure in
> January 2008, 38 of the team's 53 players were
> acquired over the past three years, including 12
> of 22 starters.
>
> Miami Dolphins
>
> On January 2, 2008 Ireland was officially hired as
> general manager of the Miami Dolphins. He was
> hired by new Executive Vice President of Football
> Operations Bill Parcells. Ireland
>
>
> and, silly me, the date I stick him with is the
> date he is hired for the job. And January of 2008
> came before April of 2008, when I am pretty sure
> the draftt occurred that year.
>
> So all you people who think Ireland had nothing to
> do with Jake Long, I say that your point may be
> metaphysical, but it is not actual.


Bill Parcells.

------------------------------------------------------------

Miami Dolphins. Always Perfect.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eesti Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Most of you dismiss Ireland because you say it
> is
> > easier to pick someone in the first round.
> >
> > Look at our 1st picks pre and post Ireland.
> >
> > before...
> >
> > Yatil Green
> > John Avery
> > J.J. Johnson
> > Todd Wade
> > Jamar Fletcher
> > Seth McKinney
> > Eddie Moore
> > Vernon Carey
> > Ronnie Brown
> > Jason Allen
> > Ted Ginn Jr.
> >
> > What a complete waste. Talk about bad drafting.
> >
> > Post Ireland
> >
> > Jake Long
> > Vontae Davis
> > Jared Odrick
> > Mike Pouncey
> > Ryan Tannehill
> >
> > still potential to determine there.
>
> you've got some 2d and 3d rounders thrown in there
> as "first" picks. I'll stack Pat Turner and Pat
> White up against Eddie Moore and Todd Wade and
> Seth McKinney and JJ Johnson
>
> we had a LOT of years where, due to trade for
> Ricky, or trade downs, we didn't have a 1st
> rounder. Ireland's picks in Rd 2 and 3 have been
> horrible.

Ronnie Brown has had more impact than any first rounder of Irelands.

Then go to the next rounds....

Where is Ireland's Jason Taylor? Where is his Zach Thomas? Where is his Surtain and Madison?

No where.

This is what we mean by NO IMPACT.


3 years and all we got is a pro-Bowl punter and an chronically injured LT.

That ain't much.

------------------------------------------------------------

Miami Dolphins. Always Perfect.

BNF- If the coaches were able to develop Solia, a project pick of Mueller as you say, how come they werent able to develop any project picks of Irelands into probowlers?

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Let's not be the dog chasing its tail, OK?

Solia was a pet project of Parcells, who found a way to extract the dudes POTENTIAL. So I'll give credit to Mueller for spotting that potential and drafting it (pretty much where Paul was slotted BTW with ample concerns about his dedication, weight, etc.). But let's just keep in mind he wasn't a ready-made pro let alone a "probowler."

Furthermore, if you're willing to give a player like Soliai 4-5 years to ramp his game up then in all fairness you cannot make a definitive judgment about 95% of Ireland's draft because that would be hypocritical, 15 yards + loss of down!