I ask honestly, because I seriously don't know how to differentiate what I saw today from what I have seen in previous bad seasons, that ended up with a head coach gone, etc.

What exactly are the characteristics of a rebuilding year?

Aren't the Bucs in a rebuilding year? And the Jaguars? Both of them look 10 times better than Miami!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2012 12:40PM by sickofit.

The real issue for us is this...six system and coaching changes in twelve years.

Teams never, ever improve when doing this.

a rebuilding year is one where you know you are going to suck but don't really care because you are letting talented young players play and make mistakes that will enable them to be great players down the road, making the entire team good in a year or 2.

so it would be a rebuilding year if we had "talented young players"---but do we? I guess RT and Martin qualify, but the rest of the team, especially the defense, is fairly old, many of our better D players are on the wrong side of 30.

Sadly I think next year is the "rebuilding year" when we will have a lot of picks (very high ones after this season) and a lot of cap space. That's the year when we will be playing a lot of young players. Which makes this season just a waste of time, and "suck for whomever"

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

OK Berkeley, thanks for that. That makes perfect sense.

We have almost 1/3rd new players on the roster (32%). Almost 40% of our roster has 2 years or less experience in the NFL.

We have a new head coach...
New offensive scheme...new offensive coach
New Defensive scheme...new defensive coach
New Quarterback...
New Right tackle...
New starting Cornerback...
New starting Safety...

By definition this team has done alot of rebuilding. Hopefully, we have a solid foundation and this thing has no where to go but up.

With another good draft next year (and this is critical) we will have the ability to fill in some needed talent with receivers and DB's. Then we can focus on developing depth.

I agree with ken and this whole notion of gutting the team is just stupid. The last regime was very very good. We may have started out bad as far as record but that team last year WAS playoff caliber. I said it we just got lots of bad breaks and this year I believe we would have made the playoffs. HOwever fans cry and cry we want change and now this regime we have I will be the first to say is TERRIBLE. I am very disappointed in philban in that if he is supposed to be an offensive genius why is our offense now looking worst than under sparano who was ultra concervative. For the first time in a long time i will conceed that this team stinks! Just to be clear even when we were losing i did not feel hopeless cause I saw the progression. I dont see it at all now...

Not rebuilding we just suck. we did not suck last year we were actually rather good. I would say 6-8th best in AFC and a wild card caliber team

reppa, last year we sucked. reeling off some meaningless wins after starting the year 0-7 is not playoff caliber, it's loser ball

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Ireland has yet to show he has a clue. Cam Wake, if that was his I will give him that one. This years FA acquisitions = absolutely 0!

You trade your best WR, don't have a plan to sign a big FA WR, and don't even draft to help your rookie QB and admit your guys are 5-6's on national TV?

I don't know who said it first, but it really boils down to draft picks and getting maximum value out of those pick positions meanwhile carefully considering the current NFL rule-set and adjusting your personnel to best meet the need of today's NFL.

Has Ireland done a good job at this? No, he is utilizing an outdated Parcellian approach which looks at physical attributes over football IQ at all costs. This is why this team is where it is today. Very average-poor player selection and a complete utter disregard for the way the NFL is playing today with its high flying passing offensive schemes.

Well I was hopeful but it looked almost EXACTLY like the lackluster preseason games. That said, in a 'rebuilding' season I guess you expect to start poorly. 5-6 weeks from now if nothing is improving and no young players are stepping up...I guess then we'll know.

This is what a rebuilding team looks like a year before it has it's wide receivers in place.
Next year will be the year of the receiver for this team. We'll have a top 5 pick more than likely, plus some added draft picks through trades. WR will be the top priority.

Agreed.

You need to have some consistency and patience.

That said...you need to draft well. I think Ireland is good at finding 'value'...I am not sure he knows how to find blue chip playmakers.

I am 100% convinced that Tannehill was a Philbin/Sherman/Ross pick...

But with the Saban 2 yr, Cameron 1 yr, Parcells's Trifecta, Ireland era...we have not accumulated enough talent.

Aside from the potential of Tannehill....yesterday's 'bright spots' were :

Starks - Titans 4th rounder
Bess - non drafted
Hartline 4th Rounder
Bush - Saints free-agent who is playing his best now

where are our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round playmakers? Jake Long is a blue-chip...but he is one of them.

I think Philbin will eventually create a solid environment, philosopy...but who is going to acquire the talent? Not sure ireland is getting it done...not sure Sherman is any better....This is my biggest concern.

one thing is for sure, this team won't begin to improve till we get a real GM in here.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

I agree.

This team would awesome in 1994.....not so awesome in 2012

Some of the talent we have is a bit of luck and a bit of looking in the trash-heap

Bess was undrafted
Wake and Thigpen were relegated to the CFL

Ireland has managed to stockpile some picks...and we will have more salary cap next season...We are in position to rejuvenate this roster with drafts and free agency in 2013...we need the right guys picking the players.

You guys are all wrong. This team won't improve until we have some stability.

Six coaches, six systems, six roster turnovers, six different styles, and seven GM's since 1995, is the root problem this franchise has.

The teams that have constant coaching, GM, system, and the resulting roster turnover...are ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, bad teams.

We've simply made too many bad hires over the years since Shula and haven't been very patient. A quick hook, so we can go on to the next great flavor of the month is what has us where we are.

We have to stop expecting immediate results and be realistic about our changes...this year the Phins will be lucky to win 6 games. Expecting more than that only sets us up to be worse next year...Fact: with every change we've made the team has gotten worse since Shula.

Under Johnson we traded offense for defense...didn't get us anywhere.

Under Wahnstedt/Spielman the entire team gradually got worse.

Under Saban/Mueller we were completely inneffective.

Under Cameron/Mueller we didn't provide time to overhaul the roster to fit the system.

Under Parcells/Sparano/Ireland we went big, strong, physical, and slow...we all know the results.

Under Philbin/Sherman/Ireland we're going west coast with "SOME" positive results so far...but we have to give it time, and we have to find some reliable receivers. I think we'll have to wait for the draft to get them however.

Keeping Ireland after dumping soprano will set this team back another 5 yrs. Fng Steve Ross

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

I agree, Ken. Changing team philosophy every 2-3 years makes it impossible to build a team.

Ken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You guys are all wrong. This team won't improve
> until we have some stability.
>
> Six coaches, six systems, six roster turnovers,
> six different styles, and seven GM's since 1995,
> is the root problem this franchise has.
>
> The teams that have constant coaching, GM, system,
> and the resulting roster turnover...are ALWAYS,
> ALWAYS, ALWAYS, bad teams.
>
> We've simply made too many bad hires over the
> years since Shula and haven't been very patient. A
> quick hook, so we can go on to the next great
> flavor of the month is what has us where we are.
>
> We have to stop expecting immediate results and be
> realistic about our changes...this year the Phins
> will be lucky to win 6 games. Expecting more than
> that only sets us up to be worse next year...Fact:
> with every change we've made the team has gotten
> worse since Shula.
>
> Under Johnson we traded offense for
> defense...didn't get us anywhere.
>
> Under Wahnstedt/Spielman the entire team gradually
> got worse.
>
> Under Saban/Mueller we were completely
> inneffective.
>
> Under Cameron/Mueller we didn't provide time to
> overhaul the roster to fit the system.
>
> Under Parcells/Sparano/Ireland we went big,
> strong, physical, and slow...we all know the
> results.
>
> Under Philbin/Sherman/Ireland we're going west
> coast with "SOME" positive results so far...but we
> have to give it time, and we have to find some
> reliable receivers. I think we'll have to wait for
> the draft to get them however.

I agree with some of what your saying about stability but to be fair JJ, Saban and Parcells all cut and ran when THEY didn't get instant results. Hard to pin that on the owner. I think the bottom line is, other than JJ with his eye for defensive players we have just been POOR in the talent eval dept...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 04:13AM by KB.

Yeah, but Ireland's been here since 2008.

He should have been gone with Sparano.

Moreover, an argument could have been made that it would have been better to keep Sparano and Fireland.

Remember Sparano was just the cook but Ireland brought the ingredients.

When the meal is bad, it might just be the guy who buys the ingredient and not the cook.

Sparano didn't do too badly yesterday with the heavily criticized Mark Sanchez.......but then again, Ireland was not responsible for Sanchez's acquisition.

Oh, I am not saying that Ireland should be the guy making the picks...I just think that we will enter the 2013 season with good picks and extra cap space.

I think Ireland would be a great scout. Finding obscure guys to fill the middle of the roster at a discount....but we need a GM that can pick the marquee guy when he is on the board.

I agree that Ireland has historically been one to find good hidden value but hasn't brought in bona-fide blue chip, playmaking talent (playmaking is why Long doesn't count) early in the draft...yet. He has been way to formulaic and Parcellian in his approach.

Prior to the 2012 draft, his 1st rounders were OLx2, DE (but not in the mold of elite pass rusher) and CB who is no longer with the team.

Trade 2nd rounders for Marshall? I think he felt he MUST recoup one via the trade down in the 2010 1st round. So, we pass up on blue-chip playmaking talent at safety, WR, DE, TE...guys who have already made the pro bowl and/or made real playmaking differences for their team.

He picked a potential blue chip playmaker at the right position this year. My assumption is that everyone knows that plan A was for RT to sit behind Garrard, but that didn't happen for circumstances outside of his control. BUT the pick itself shows me that he's not set in his ways and unable to break free from his upbringing. He showed a willingness to support Philbin's philosophy by cutting bait on 2 of his biggest and arguably most successful acquisitions and getting picks in return. He didn't let pride get in the way of moving on.

A good scout is a good scout, so he ought to be able to evaluate elite blue-chippers as well as 5th round safeties out of Georgia and productive but slow slot WRs from Hawaii. Until this year he hasn't taken a shot at greatness where most greatness resides. He's been safely operating within an archaic philosophy.

A lot of people on this board condemn Fireland for the Brandon Marshall trade.

I just can't do that.

Brandon was a cancer on this team and you can be sure that if he were on the team now he'd be downtalking and demoralizing Tannehill.

And didn't I hear that for all the catches he made in Chicago that he repeated his old habit of dropping a TD in the endzone?

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A lot of people on this board condemn Fireland for
> the Brandon Marshall trade.
>
> I just can't do that.



You saying something constructive towards ireland.

This has got to be a first....

THE SUN WILL COME OUT TOMMORROW

BETCHA THAT TOMMORROW

THERE BE SUN.......

THINKING ABOUT TOMMORROW

PUTS AWAY ALL COWWEBS AND THE SORROW...............TILL THERE NONE.

Oh if you look back, I've argued with people on this board who have even condemned him for Jake Long and Pouncey. I've been arguing with both sides of the board.

That said, I still think he's an idiot.

And it still remains to be seen, when Brady retires, whether he was stupid to take Danny Thomas over Ryan Mallett.

Moreover, even if you get a good player like Tannehill, the question remains as to whether it would have been better to pass on him and get an impact receiver and save the quarterback building to the next year.

Of course, people on this board in this quarterback frenzied atmosphere will never stand for that.

So the best I can do is hope for Tanny to be great.

If Thill turns out to be a certified NFL angus coitusback then Ireland deserves significant credit and job security IMO.

Furthermore it would seem we're going to have a top 10 pick this year (maybe top 5) along with a LOT of accumulated ammunition (2 picks in R2 R3 R4 and R6). Depending on how things play out we may be able to leverage our #1 pick for even more bounty we can invest in:

WR OL LB CB and whatever other positions we have needs with high-value prospects.

That's the "best case scenario" as far as looking at the future and seeing where this team is heading. And it will give Philbin the opportunity to fill the roster with footballers that fit his plan.

Like I said before the season, if Thill proves legit and Philbin proves he's the answer at HC and Ireland continues to grow as a GM (proving to be a winning combination with Philbin) then this "season" will be a huge success...

But of course its a complete rebuilding project and this season will provide lots of time for the negative crowd to beat their drums to death.

BNF. And looking forward.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 09:21AM by BigNastyFish.

49ers seemed to put things in place much better then the FINS, just saying...Anyone remember when the 49ers were considered sort of on the bottom shelf only a couple of seasons ago?

Rhetorical Question: Why did they improve so much in a short amount of time and us spinning our wheels?

49ers had a lot of blue chip talent though. Patrick willis, frank gore (maybe not so much now but he was a top R, Justin Smith, Vernon Davis. Plus a lot of good players already there: Navorro bowman, ray mcdonald, staley, iputai, crabtree, ahmad brooks. They had a lot of cap room and got a few more good players: whitner, carlos rogers, akers. Plus they nailed their first rounder in aldon smith and Harbaugh was able to coach up alex smith. So harbaugh had a lot of help with previous regimes acquiring talent but was able to bring in a couple good guys, hit a stud with his first rounder, and improved his qb play. I think he is a great coach but got lucky with Aldon Smith. Their drafting this year doesn't look nearly as good.

49ers kept dipping year after year at the top of the draft...

They couldn't help but get really good players.

The biggest sham around here was the lucky turnaround with Pennington which resulted with poor draft position coupled with high expectations...

It doesn't pay to suck a little. It pays to suck a lot!

And suck long time!

LOL.