The owners imposed the lockout and drug their feet to bring matters right up to the point that pre-season games are to be lost. Then there are those on this board, let them be nameless (but I betcha a hurt dog will holler), who are angry the players don't just sign and that they have the nerve and gall to want to read it.

Another point made above that was good is that unlike the Owners, the players are a more diversified group. You have stars versus not so much starts, you have old vets versus new players, you have rookies vs. all other players, you have those who have been on injured reserve versus those who have been healthy all their lives, you have those making millions versus those making not so much millions.

When I say "versus" I don't necessarily mean that they are fighting each other but I am saying they have different interests and different circumstances.

With those different interests and circumstances, there is time needed to digest the agreement to intelligently vote.

But the reason for this whole fiasco (given the fact that the players initially offered to give up concessions from the last contract) was that the owners decided to drag their feet until the last second and then cry "wolf!" (no disrespect to my pet Freddie), "You've GOT to sign it now! There's no TIME to think."

WOW, I just heard George Wilson, the Bills players rep speak again. Last night, he was full of propaganda, but today it seems someone got a hold of him. Becasue his tune was 180 degrees different then his last interview, where he was saying the owenrs pulled a fast one, forced them into the corner, snuck things in on them, and were basicly calling the owenrs deceitful bums trying to derail the will and solidarity of the players.... What a difference a few hours makes, becasue now he said nothing but nice things about the owners, and how they have both come so close together in this process and it getting resolved and he is excited about it finally being resolved.

Chryen, PF2-
If it was your lively hood and pay checks at stake, would either one of you, be just begining to digest the agreement... I agree the group is diverse, big stars, vets, rookies, minimum salary guys, but it is everyone of their livelyhood and the livelyhood for their families and kids. If they blew off the details until last night or today, that ignorance is not justifiable as you described IMHO. And that is the ignorance I was referring to... How about this one "you got no one to blame but yourself"

I think the players are pissed because as every good lawyers would tell you, always sign an agreement created by your counsel not one created by the opposing counsel...lol... that was a bit of a joke, I understand the agreement was actually created jointly...

So, are you trying to make the argument that the players will NOT get to see a complete agreement until after they sign it?

Really Chryen, sorry dont buy it. The players reps were suppose to be the guy educating his teammates throughout the process. ANd there was just a meeting wednesday where you were possibly going to vote on ratifying that agreement. SO sorry I call absolute and total BS, if you wouldnt have read the agreement before the wednesday meeting in DC with a majority of the 1800 players... You wouldnt have lasted being a lawyers for this long without better survival instincts then that..lol

My contention is that the players did have time to look at the document before and after they had a conference call. And yes, conference calls can be bumped back an hour.

Unfortunately, what the rank and file players got predigested for them was an idiotic knee jerk reaction.

Why didn't they just forward a readers digest version of the agreement and then discuss any remaining points of disagreement during the conference call and determine if these points are deal breakers or not.

They certainly were not required or even expected to sign something they haven't read.

My problem with that is that it appears that they still have not and will not be given the opportunity to read it.

Jim B Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, are you trying to make the argument that the
> players will NOT get to see a complete agreement
> until after they sign it?


No, Jim, just responding to Crowder criticizing the players for being (I don't know) negligent or whatever for not knowing what the agreement contained until now.

It's not a question of the player's reps knowing what the agreement contains but the players. When I went through all the "this versus that," did you ever have a clue, Crowder, why I was saying that. Each segment has to see and analyze the agreement from their standpoint. The players had to give as to some segments and the owners had to give as to other segments. Now all of the segments have to read each line and figure out how the agreement affects THEM INDIVIDUALLY AND NOT THE PLAYERS AS A WHOLE.

If you STILL don't know WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, why don't you ask somebody else?

My point my friend, is that the players reps could have ratified the agreement on wednesday with just 32 guys. They had the authority, they were educated on the points and facts and details.

So, are you making the claim that the rank and file player has NOT been briefed on what both sides have clearly agreed to up to this point after months of negotiations?

And you don't believe that the players have been updated on any possible additions to what has not been sanctioned by the NFLPA?

and it takes 51 percent of players votes or signatures to recertify. It is 2 different votes

What changes did the owners make?

Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can blame whomever you want, but from where I
> sit, a deals a deal. If one side makes changes or
> additions at the last second then any delays in
> getting both parties to sign off are that sides
> fault.

I would say that to be true, if Goodell hadnt obviously gotten De Smith to sign off on it before the owners voted with the 1.5 hour phone call.

I think the players are a little pissed that the owenrs used the argument that they need to help struggling teams and used their income and negotiated trying to make those teams have value and cash flow that was fair. And then the NFL turned around changed how the inner workings of their cash distrubution system worked, to help those same teams the NFLPA believed they were trying to make whole. But obviously the owners had to do it to get the votes they needed, but they negotiated as if they would never do that. So that put De SMith with a bit of a sour taste his mouth, which is why he sent an email last night to players saying the owners kind of pulled a fast one with their supplemental profit sharing for struggling teams... But De Smith, knows , while it bothers him, he really cant do anything about it, and a deal is a deal... The owners just did it, to let De Smith know, who had one up on who, so to speak, childish cr*p, that happens with Big Egos..

that's right, phinsfan. my understanding is the player reps vote to see if the agreement is worth bringing to the players for a full vote. obviously if they recommend signing, that carries a lot of weight and the approval of the masses would likely be pro forma. the last minute "changes" (from what I understand, some new language about revenue sharing) threw the reps for a loop, and chaos ensued.

Ok, well the players reps who are educated, who know the points, who spent all day wednesday in meetings planning to ratify. Those guys spent a few hours on the phone last night again, and then said they had no idea what they are voting on and played completely stupid to the fact...

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My point my friend, is that the players reps could
> have ratified the agreement on wednesday with just
> 32 guys. They had the authority, they were
> educated on the points and facts and details.


RESPONSE: 32 guys ratify it affecting the lives of 1800 or so?