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          I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Miami Dolphins Civilized Discussion :  Phins.com Phorums The fastest message board... ever.
This is a moderated phorum for the CIVILIZED discussion of the Miami Dolphins. In this phorum, there are rules and moderators to make sure you abide by the rules. The moderators for this phorum are JC and Colonel
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I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Date: May 18, 2011 07:21AM


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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: Phinsfan2 ()
Date: May 18, 2011 07:49AM


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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: berkeley223 ()
Date: May 18, 2011 08:08AM

and I've said it more than once and I'll say it again---all it really cost us to get Thomas was our 5th round pick. The 3d was swapped for the 2d, and the other pick was a 7th, which is basically worthless (we already had 2 of them). A 5th rounder gets you a John Nablone way more often than a Zach Thomas. D Thomas would not have been there in the 3d, so if they really felt like he was a player they wanted, I have no problem with the deal. This myth that we gave up a ton of picks to get this guy is based on nothing.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: May 18, 2011 08:26AM

Therein lies the paradox. We moved up in the second round to get Thomas. But if RB was even the second priority, we passed on the BEST running back (Mark Ingram) to get what most that I remember were ranking third behind LeShoure (actually LeShoure was in fact drafted second), Danny Thomas.

So the geniuses of our staff pass on the first rated RB for the third rated RB.

Again, I like Pouncey. I think he'll be an all-pro center maybe, but let's put it like this.

Let me go back to the team that started me rooting for the Dolphins.


If you had a chance to draft either (you can only choose one) Jim Langer or Larry Csonka, which would you draft?

Now it's also okay to choose Jim Langer. But then you have the choice of drafting Bob Griese or Jim Kiick in the second round. Who do you choose?

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: berkeley223 ()
Date: May 18, 2011 08:37AM

arrgg we need football so we can have something new to talk about!!

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: dolphaholic ()
Date: May 18, 2011 09:01AM

"Nothing to look at over here, just trying to walk off a situation"

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Date: May 18, 2011 09:49AM

Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brown is done. He's a part time player at this
> point. the fact that he'd come back has zero
> impact on our needs in the draft.
>
> RB was a HUGE need.
>
> Did we need to trade up in a draft that was deep
> at RB? Probably not.
>
> But faulting a GM for going and getting the player
> he wants is silly. Especially to the level you've
> pushed it.
>
> Ireland will be measured by 3 things in this
> draft
>
> 1) Is Pouncey a Pro Bowl level interior lineman
> for the next decade.
> 2) Is Daniel Thomas an every down back.
> 3) Is Ryan Mallett and NFL star.
>
>
> NONE of those three measurements can be calculated
> today with any degree of accuracy.
>
> Its time to let it go.




Why can't Ronnie brown , still in his Twenties , get the same consideration as Henne? Crappy Oline, No vertical threat hampered his play. In fact Chad Henne Telegraphed every hand off. he needs better coaching. Ronnie has been awful good at times.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: berkeley223 ()
Date: May 18, 2011 10:02AM

because RBs almost as a rule break down in their late 20s/early 30s. and except for 1 half of a season before he blew out his knee, he's never been anything special, definitely not since he's been back from the injury.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: Crowder52 ()
Date: May 18, 2011 10:13AM

How many RB's that are drafted first in their draft class over the last ten years, wound up being the best RB in the class... I would say going number 1 Rb has not always been all it is cracked up to be...
So lets see, if Thomas outperforms Ingrahm this year or over a three year period, will you be satisfied Chyren?

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Date: May 18, 2011 01:28PM

Henne was hurt last year as well , and your right ,the life of a RB rarely lasts into his 30's. Thats all the reason more NOT to waste a second rounder on one with so many other options available. I wouldn't sign Ronnie to a 5 yr plan without heavy incentives. The $500,000 one from last year that he missed is a great example.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: May 18, 2011 02:39PM

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How many RB's that are drafted first in their
> draft class over the last ten years, wound up
> being the best RB in the class... I would say
> going number 1 Rb has not always been all it is
> cracked up to be...
> So lets see, if Thomas outperforms Ingrahm this
> year or over a three year period, will you be
> satisfied Chyren?

RESPONSE: Yeah, and I'd imagine that you would be regretful if the reverse turns out to be true. If Ingram ends up being another Emmitt Smith are you going to shrug your shoulders and say, "So what?"

If you do chump it off that way, then I'm not engaged in an argument with somebody who is being fair.

You have to admit that if Ingram does turn out to be fantastic that we BLEW IT!

Now, all and all, what this means is that we are never going to know until the future.

But I'm not guaranteeing ANYTHING! Even that I am right!

We can only look at the present from the standpoint of the present.

And the fact of the matter remains that we passed on the number 1 Running Back to pick the number 3 Running back and even if you concede that we got the number 1 center and even if you concede that this was an area of need, then we possibly made another mistake in drafting the number 3 running back over who could prove to be the number 3 QUARTERBACK.

If you guys want to close your eyes and take happy pills, then hey, that's your choice.

But I really don't have any confidence that you guys will admit you are wrong a year in the future.

Don't get me wrong, by that I don't mean that you are going to deny that Ingram is great if he turns out to be great. That I could live with. That's normal. People tend to try to argue their way out of mistakes. That wouldn't bother me.

But what I WON'T BE ABLE TO LIVE WITH is that some of you same clowns will SHAMELESSLY DENOUNCE the Management for passing on Ingram and Mallett hypocritically forgetting how much crap you are giving me and Treasure for doing the same thing now.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: berkeley223 ()
Date: May 18, 2011 03:03PM

ChB, if both Pouncy and Thomas become Pro Bowlers for 5 years and Ingram has a career like Emmitt Smith, which would you rather have?

Obviously, if Ingram is great and the 2 we got suck, we will all acknowledge the draft was a mistake. But hey, the reverse could be true too. We have no idea, and many teams passed on Ingram in the first (even the team that ultimately picked him).

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: Crowder52 ()
Date: May 18, 2011 05:11PM

If Ingrahm winds up like Emmit Smith then yes I will, be crushed, along with 27 other teams that passed on him. IF Pouncey and Thomas both become probowlers for 5 years then I would be satisfied with the decision, because we got 2 probowlers compared to one HOF. And if Thomas is a probowl RB for five years, how much better could Ingrahm be.... Those are all fairy tale land observations though but why not speculate, that is what we do around here...hahahaha
But I understand, you liking Ingrahm, the guy won the Heisman, for heaven sake. That says enough.
I think with RB's it is really hard, so much depends on which guy stays healthy and is more durable. That is tough to predict and foresee. But I am seriously stoked about us having a potential blue chipper at center, with some unique skills, and I like the versatility of THomas. ANd for all we know Ingrahm going to the Saints just might open the door for a cut Bush in Miami

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: dolphaholic ()
Date: May 18, 2011 05:18PM

2 comments;

1983, I remember thinking "why did those idiots draft a QB when David Woodley just took us to the Superbowl" boy was I wrong.

And, does anyone remember being over joyed in 1996 when we took 2 undersized no-names from small schools in the 3rd/5th rnds respectivelly? Anyone that says yeah is probably lying. The moral of those 2 comments is.....you just never know what you're getting in the draft.

This regime took a decent sized back with average speed in the late 2nd, when a past regime took the same thing with the 2nd pick overall, this regime took a blazing fast WR with potential in rnd 4, when a past regime took the same thing with the 9th overall pick. Loosen up a bit on these guys, they haven't done that bad drafting. If you wanna get mad, i'd say get mad at past regimes.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: berkeley223 ()
Date: May 18, 2011 05:34PM

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> This regime took a decent sized back with average
> speed in the late 2nd, when a past regime took the
> same thing with the 2nd pick overall, this regime
> took a blazing fast WR with potential in rnd 4,
> when a past regime took the same thing with the
> 9th overall pick. Loosen up a bit on these guys,
> they haven't done that bad drafting. If you wanna
> get mad, i'd say get mad at past regimes.


great point!

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: Crowder52 ()
Date: May 18, 2011 05:35PM

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 comments;
>
> 1983, I remember thinking "why did those idiots
> draft a QB when David Woodley just took us to the
> Superbowl" boy was I wrong.
>
Good point, Shula was a stud and picked some great players, Clayton was in that same draft, I believe.
He probably would have gotten destroyed on the message boards for that move if they existed back then...

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: May 18, 2011 05:47PM

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChB, if both Pouncy and Thomas become Pro Bowlers
> for 5 years and Ingram has a career like Emmitt
> Smith, which would you rather have?
>
> Obviously, if Ingram is great and the 2 we got
> suck, we will all acknowledge the draft was a
> mistake. But hey, the reverse could be true too.
> We have no idea, and many teams passed on Ingram
> in the first (even the team that ultimately picked
> him).

Response: I'd rather have one Emmitt Smith than two probowlers. But that's me. I'm a big RB guy. But instead of Pouncey and Thomas vs. Smith, it would be Ingram and Mallett vs. Pouncey and Thomas or at least Pouncey and Mallett vs. Pouncey and Thomas.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: May 18, 2011 05:51PM


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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: May 18, 2011 05:53PM

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 comments;
>
> 1983, I remember thinking "why did those idiots
> draft a QB when David Woodley just took us to the
> Superbowl" boy was I wrong.
>
RESPONSE: I didn't. I was sitting there at the Rose Bowl at that SuperBowl. David couldn't complete ONE FRIGGIN PASS in the entire second half.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Date: May 18, 2011 05:53PM

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 comments;
>
> 1983, I remember thinking "why did those idiots
> draft a QB when David Woodley just took us to the
> Superbowl" boy was I wrong.
>
> And, does anyone remember being over joyed in 1996
> when we took 2 undersized no-names from small
> schools in the 3rd/5th rnds respectivelly? Anyone
> that says yeah is probably lying. The moral of
> those 2 comments is.....you just never know what
> you're getting in the draft.
>
> This regime took a decent sized back with average
> speed in the late 2nd, when a past regime took the
> same thing with the 2nd pick overall, this regime
> took a blazing fast WR with potential in rnd 4,
> when a past regime took the same thing with the
> 9th overall pick. Loosen up a bit on these guys,
> they haven't done that bad drafting. If you wanna
> get mad, i'd say get mad at past regimes.




All good points. However........Thomas could turn out to be the second coming of Payton/sanders/simpson......we had a 1800 Yd back in 2001 and did not even make the playoffs. YOU NEED A QUARTERBACK to win anything in this league. I know I know........what about Trent Difer.......well Dilfer actually was a decent caretaker and he had arguably the best defense in NFL history. We have a very good defense, but crowder ain't no Ray lewis. they should have addressed that position before ever touching a RB. fact is , they were thinking of themselves NOT the team. they pick a QB and he fails , so do they. So they went safe.

It was a bullshit move and I''l defend my posistion until they win something worthwhile. The last 3 games of last season are still turning my stomach. FREE AGENCY QB HAS NOT WORKED FOR 10 YRS! What don't they get? people do not dump franchise QB's.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: dolphaholic ()
Date: May 18, 2011 05:54PM

Lol Chyren, you trying to steal my job around here?

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: May 18, 2011 05:55PM

I can't never measure up. I can just try.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: Aqua&Orange ()
Date: May 19, 2011 01:19AM


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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: dolphaholic ()
Date: May 19, 2011 02:01AM

Treasure, i'm not trying to say we don't need a QB or that Henne's the answer, i'm just not sold that Mallett would of been the right choice. Ireland's been pretty decent guessing in the "judge of charachter" dept. so far so i'll take his word that Mallett was too high of a risk to waste a pick on.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: Aqua&Orange ()
Date: May 19, 2011 03:29AM

Exactly, Dolphaholic.

That is the 2nd point in this situation. There is a chance that none of the QB's we had a chance to get are actually an upgrade over Henne. This in lies the BPA tactic to drafting.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2011 03:31AM by Aqua&Orange.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: montequi ()
Date: May 19, 2011 07:37AM

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Exactly, Dolphaholic.
>
> That is the 2nd point in this situation. There is
> a chance that none of the QB's we had a chance to
> get are actually an upgrade over Henne. This in
> lies the BPA tactic to drafting.

but BPA is still subjective. Just ask the Chiefs about Todd Blackledge, or the 49ers about Alex Smith. Whether you draft for need or not, there's no guarantee that the guy you think is the BPA is truly the BPA.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2011 07:37AM by montequi.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: ChyrenB ()
Date: May 19, 2011 08:24AM

My biggest mistake. Wanting Blackledge of all of those 6 QBs in 1983.

Well, I've called some right, like Drew Brees, and I've called some wrong.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: berkeley223 ()
Date: May 19, 2011 08:32AM

I wasn't even aware of football back in 1983 so was clueless about how blackledge did in college, but he really stunk it up in the pros.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Date: May 19, 2011 09:10AM

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Treasure, i'm not trying to say we don't need a QB
> or that Henne's the answer, i'm just not sold that
> Mallett would of been the right choice. Ireland's
> been pretty decent guessing in the "judge of
> charachter" dept. so far so i'll take his word
> that Mallett was too high of a risk to waste a
> pick on.


Fair enough. And if you read some of my Pre Draft posts I state that I don't think Mallet is the moon and the stars either. You just never know and clearly Ireland and Saprano are in a much better place to pick a winner. But Pick ONE!with so many available, PICK JUST ONE. To not address it at all through the draft is condeming this team to failure yet again. because the one consistant thing , besides losing , is Miami has not addressed the QB posistion enough times through the draft. Its a HUGE need. Its like driving a ferrari with out a steering wheel. Might be a great car , but its useless without someone to point it in the right direction.

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Re: I said it more then once, and i'll say it again......
Posted by: dolfanmark ()
Date: May 19, 2011 09:18AM

The dropoff from Pouncey to the next best center was enormous. Enormous. The dropoff from Ingram to Thomas is minor. And Thomas doesn't come with the same concerns about the workload he's carried or a knee that is already problematic.

Tim Ryan and Pat Kirwan talked about this on Sirius the other day. When you look at first round picks like Mangold and Maurkice Pouncey, and you look at what they do for the entire o-line, their impact is tremendous. And they agreed that Mike Pouncey has that some kind of potential.

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