IS THERE SUCH A THING AS GREAT QUARTERBACKS OR ARE THEY JUST A PRODUCT OF THEIR ENVIRONMENT?


-Was J. Montana great? or was it the fact he played in a creative system known as the West Coast offense and played in a weak nfc west division giving him the perfect ingredients for many super bowl rings and big stats. Bono,Young,Grbac all seemed to look good in this system it seemed as though who ever they plugged in could win. Would J. Montana have been great if he played for the Cincinnati Bengals at this time?

-Was D. Marino great?or was he lucky to play with a great coach and have talented players who learned under and were part of some superbowls.Why doesn't this guy have numerous rings? Would he have had them on another team?

-Was T.Aikman great? or was it the fact that there was no salary cap in those days and the Dallas Cowboys were like the Yankees always able to buy the best talent at all positions. Would he have all his rings if he was on another team. I personally think there were better QB's playing during his time.

Is B.Farve great? or was he teamed with a smart coach in a weak division afterall he only has one superbowl,B. Johnson has one superbowl win and threw alot less INT's but no one talks about him.

-Is T. Brady great? or is it that he plays in a clever system. Bledsoe was able to take them to the superbowl and if he didn't get hurt maybe he would be the guy. I have also seen M.Cassel lead that team to a 11-5 season.

-Is P.Manning great? or is it he was surrounded by intelligent coaches with a system that meets his skills. Or is it the Colts moved to an easier division allowing him to run his stats up and reach the playoffs more frequently. I have noticed when guys like A. Collie or D. Clark are hurt he struggles and looks human. And when Indy don't have that defense they seem to be a vulnerable team.

-Is B. Roethlisberger great? or is he simply a mediocre player on a great team. He throws a questionable ball at times and dishes out the INT'S at times. I mean lets face it the Steel Curtain itself generates alot of points which helps any QB allowing the QB to take more chances and hiding his mistakes by getting the ball back. I saw an old Charlie Batch lead this team to 3-1 at the beginning of the year with this cadillac defense.

-Is A.Rodgers great? or is it he was on a stacked team with a great defense and a smart coach. Some guy named M.Flynn in like his first start nearly beat a tough patriots team with this cadillac system.

-Is Flacco,Ryan,Sanchez great or are they mediocre on loaded teams?

- Was S. Bradford rookie of the year because he was in a weak division and he was familiar with the offense?Would he have done as well in the AFC east?Will he be as good under Mcdaniels system which is new to him?

How did Dilfer win a superbowl? How did Rex Grossman make it to a superbowl? How did Fiedler have such a great winning percentage? How did guys like A.J. Feely and J.Harrington beat the Patriots?etc....

In my opinion the next time we will have a great QB in Miami is when the team(coaches,system,defense,) is in place for it.

As far as draft prospects IMO the guy who goes to the best team(coaches,systems,players,etc.) and whos system matches his skills will have the most success.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2011 07:14AM by sleekdogg.

Slekk Manning doesnt have smart coachs, he is the coach on that team, and the only reason why they have been competitive over the past decade.

Marino have talent?????? lol ok Duper, and Clayton, which I don't think where superstars, more of a bye product of Marino.

Montana yeah I could see him not being as good on another team, Favre has proven that he is a gunslinger, he can win, and is a damn good instinctive QB, that does not give one rats a.. about throwing a pick, he lets his wr's do what they do.

Brady is a good qb, but no question having the best o-line for an entire decade help's him two fold, he just has all day in the pockett, ALLLLLLLLL DAYYYYYY.

Flacco is mediocre, who has a great overall team, I live hour from Bmore I know many of fans.....

Ryan is a good qb, but again came to a stacked team.

Sanchez is a good qb when outside the pockett, but again stacked team, and a rinky dinky offense that is tailored fit for him, is the only reason why he is a starter, backup anywhere else.

Rodgers makes all the throws, and great reads, damn fine qb.

Aikman was not a superstar QB, he was a good qb, but when you had all the talent he had I mean put Marino on that team. He would have 4 or 5 sb's rings.

I don't see how anyone could say Marino wasn't a great QB. He did what QB's are supposed to do, gain yards and score points throwing the football better than almost anyone else for quite a while. Add in that he almost NEVER had a functional running game, not really much in the way of 'Great' receivers (except maybe for Clayton), And some of the sorriest defenses in Dolphins history, well, you get the point.

One of the few nights in his pro career he did have a running game he TORCHED the '85 Bears, maybe one of the greatest NFL teams of all time.

KB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't see how anyone could say Marino wasn't a
> great QB. He did what QB's are supposed to do,
> gain yards and score points throwing the football
> better than almost anyone else for quite a while.
> Add in that he almost NEVER had a functional
> running game, not really much in the way of
> 'Great' receivers (except maybe for Clayton), And
> some of the sorriest defenses in Dolphins history,
> well, you get the point.
>
> One of the few nights in his pro career he did
> have a running game he TORCHED the '85 Bears,
> maybe one of the greatest NFL teams of all time.


definetely agree.

I think its a ridiculous question to ask. Are some of the greatest QB's of all time really that great or are they just products of a million other factors that are lucky enough to work in their favor?

No. There is such a thing as greatness at the QB position, but unlike most analysts and fans of the game, I don't just look at a QB's historical success as proof of it. Like Manning's W-L percentage or the fact that Montana got to the SB so many times. Although btw, Mannings supposed weak division is in no way some excuse for this supposed inflated success of his. It's not like he doesn't play 10 other teams (non-division teams) every year and mutilated them just the same time and again. He does. Every year.

A good defense can help you win games at a time when your not playing all that great at the QB position. No, I'm more interested in the here and now. Snapshots of individual performances during games. I don't just think Manning or Marino are two of the best ever just because of their various stats or accollades, I put them in that category because I've turned the tv on and watched them play. When you see Manning run his own offense and annihilate the #1 defense in the league with everything he does from his arm, his accuracy, his play calls, his adjustments, his decision-making, etc. and do it game after game year after year, You know its greatness.

Watching Dan use his once-in-a-generation athletic QB skill set (firing off the fastest, most violent release the game has ever seen, launching rockets down the field, etc.) to dominate top defenses in every way imaginable, you know you're witnessing greatness instead of just talking about how good a guy is who has a lot of wins because of a number of different factors that may have helped him get those wins.

I've seen Marino perform in a way that makes you drop your jaw in awe of his skill at that position in exactly the same way you drop your jaw in awe of what Barry Sanders was able to do at the RB position. Someone who is able to do that consistently game after game year after year, that is witnessing greatness. That is also why I could care less about the fact Dan doesn't have a SB ring (in terms of the debate of how that effects his legacy) One game being lost or a great QB not going to multiple SB's are things that are subject to those millions of other factors that come into play, but have no bearing on the greatness you've seen over the years from a given player.

Panteraize Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think its a ridiculous question to ask. Are some
> of the greatest QB's of all time really that great
> or are they just products of a million other
> factors that are lucky enough to work in their
> favor?
>
> No. There is such a thing as greatness at the QB
> position, but unlike most analysts and fans of the
> game, I don't just look at a QB's historical
> success as proof of it. Like Manning's W-L
> percentage or the fact that Montana got to the SB
> so many times. Although btw, Mannings supposed
> weak division is in no way some excuse for this
> supposed inflated success of his. It's not like he
> doesn't play 10 other teams (non-division teams)
> every year and mutilated them just the same time
> and again. He does. Every year.
>
> A good defense can help you win games at a time
> when your not playing all that great at the QB
> position. No, I'm more interested in the here and
> now. Snapshots of individual performances during
> games. I don't just think Manning or Marino are
> two of the best ever just because of their various
> stats or accollades, I put them in that category
> because I've turned the tv on and watched them
> play. When you see Manning run his own offense and
> annihilate the #1 defense in the league with
> everything he does from his arm, his accuracy, his
> play calls, his adjustments, his decision-making,
> etc. and do it game after game year after year,
> You know its greatness.
>
> Watching Dan use his once-in-a-generation athletic
> QB skill set (firing off the fastest, most violent
> release the game has ever seen, launching rockets
> down the field, etc.) to dominate top defenses in
> every way imaginable, you know you're witnessing
> greatness instead of just talking about how good a
> guy is who has a lot of wins because of a number
> of different factors that may have helped him get
> those wins.
>
> I've seen Marino perform in a way that makes you
> drop your jaw in awe of his skill at that position
> in exactly the same way you drop your jaw in awe
> of what Barry Sanders was able to do at the RB
> position. Someone who is able to do that
> consistently game after game year after year, that
> is witnessing greatness. That is also why I could
> care less about the fact Dan doesn't have a SB
> ring (in terms of the debate of how that effects
> his legacy) One game being lost or a great QB not
> going to multiple SB's are things that are subject
> to those millions of other factors that come into
> play, but have no bearing on the greatness you've
> seen over the years from a given player.

You are saying you only look at an individual player's skill set based on what you see and no other factors. The problem with that is you are not seeing the big picture only part of it. Football is a team sport making it virtually impossible to judge only one individual. Coaches and coordinators spend tons of time drawing up plays to accent their players strengths and they call what play to run. Teammates work to block, run routes, catch the ball,etc. So when you see Marino zip a pass for a completion it was called by the coordinator and executed by his teammates. To discredit all this stuff is crazy IMO. If it was just Marino or Manning you wouldn't need coaches,coordinators, and teammates. The only way to give an individual total credit is in an individual sport not a team sport.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2011 12:51PM by sleekdogg.

JOE MONTANA was a product of a system...DAN MARINO was a system.
- 49ers COACH BILL WALSH



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2011 02:37PM by DaytonaDolfan13.

joe walsh? the guitarist for the eagles?

Wow...never knew he was watching football at the Hotel California.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Aqua&Orange Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow...never knew he was watching football at the
> Hotel California.

He was forced to watch Jets games and not allowed to leave. OH THE HORROR!!!!

Life's been good to him so far.

sleekdogg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IS THERE SUCH A THING AS GREAT QUARTERBACKS OR ARE
> THEY JUST A PRODUCT OF THEIR ENVIRONMENT?

RE: It's a combination of factors that make ANY player great but if that player does not have the talent and brains along with a good bit of luck...greatness is avioded.

As I have said numerous times. Teams win championships...not players. You must have 3 of the 4 ingredients to win a SB....great offense defense ST coaching. Montana and Marino were great. No question.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Duper, and Clayton were super stars.