Good catch. A lot of people don't get that 500% more is 5x more, as you said.

My guess is that they really believed what they published.
But it's only a guess of course.

The value of teams are declining even though they had the best year the NFL has ever had.... That is the problem the Owners are having. The cash flow doesnt come close to covering the cost of the money or debt.. So therfore guys who bought the teams recently or want to sell the teams, like our Mr Ross are in horrible investments or invovled in an assett that is declining... The reason being is that salaries our huge, the rookie pay scale is dangerous, the tickets are currently way overpriced, so the only place they have to look to right the ship is from the incredible deal the NFLPA currently has and is ending.. The owners will not bend, they cant...

5x return on your investment is still pretty good

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 5x return on your investment is still pretty good

Oh yeah!! I'll take that anyday!

tsstamper, just curious. Do you desert your favorite actors if they make a bad movie? What about singers/entertainers? Do you stop listening if they cut a bad song?

Baseball and Football is nothing more than entertainment. I would say you were never much of a baseball fan if you stop watching because of a labor dispute.
Do you boycott a company if they have a labor dispute.
I think you might be the loser in this one.

Perhaps I'm fickle and/or cheap. I almost never go to the movies (maybe once per year). I don't have a Netflix account and the last time I went to Blockbuster was probably a year or so ago. I have rented some flicks from Redbox for $1/each. I recently purchased an Apple TV and have viewed some movies through it. I don't even know if I truly have a favorite actor. When an actor I like (say, Denzel) makes a sub-par movie, I don't equate it to a dispute he had over money or anything else intentional. I think it just didn't come together for him for some reason for that movie (like when the Phins just play a bad game, but give good effort). I have a collection of about 25 CDs, of which 90% were in my possession 8-10 years ago. I'm not big on spending for entertainment. The Dolphins, I would say, are about the only bit of entertainment around which I have any passion (excluding international travel).

Regarding baseball, from 5th grade (1985) through 1994, I dedicated hours of time and attention to the sport. I memorized statistics, I watched it on TV, I was deeply saddened that the A's with their incredible pitching staff and offensive firepower could only manage a single WS win during the late 80s/early 90s. Neither my family nor I personally had a ton of extra money, so I wasn't a big revenue contributor to the sport, but I was exactly the type of young fan they would have wanted to cultivate, I believe. Every year or two, my parents would take us to KC for a Royals game. I can honestly say that I had no intention of ever being less of a fan of baseball. I was a Phins & A's guy growing up in southern Kansas. Unless the very definition of a fan precludes ever losing fanaticism, I would say that I was a genuine fan of the game.

I can't think of a single company whose product that I cared about has suffered due to a labor dispute. It's a good question, but I don't know of any company whose labor basically is the product and about which I'm passionate.

Also, it's not only the labor dispute, though that was the focus of this post. While I don't think it's anywhere near over the top, I also feel that the league isn't exactly offering an even playing field for all 32 teams. It feels like some teams (MIA included) have to earn their wins more than others. The PIT call in our game with them was outright theft in my opinion. Additionally, I think the game (product) has been weakened overall by the rules, sub-rules and interpretations of rules. Finally, I'm also probably just weary of our team not being legitimate, consistent contenders for well over a decade. So, it's not just the labor dispute...but that's at the forefront at the moment.

I suppose it will have a lot to do with whether and how the league and players try to regain the standing they had with fans. The way I'm wired, if they miss games or even degrade the product, they will at least have to work to win back my support. Baseball had to do it with their fan base, and they did it by shrinking the parks and juicing the batters. I wonder how the NFL & players will manage the collateral damage of a work stoppage.

short of Cam Wake or someone personally beating the crap out of me like in the movie The Fan (great flick btw), I can't think of anything that would turn me off from the phins or NFL. A strike would piss me off for sure, but I'd be back like the addict I am.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 5x return on your investment is still pretty good


and you would have to have bought your team 15 years ago. If you bought your team 5 years ago, you probably have a negative return and an unsellable product. That is the point...

ok well anyone who made an investment 5 years ago is probably not doing so hot compared to 15 years ago. but I doubt any of these owners regret their decisions, they are still profitable and will only be more so in the future. plus these guys buy teams not for the investment potential but for the ego boost of being an nfl owner and public figure. I am not buying any owner's sob story.

T-Stamp i'm getting a kick out of this thread........you don't think the owners might be throwing some mis-information out there also?

This whole topic is why these negotiations should be private and not public. I know that won't happen, but the info that spreads around will always be tainted by the Players, Owners, and media.

Maybe it's because of being experienced as a Union Shop Stewart, Manager, and now Business owner that I sit back and just smile at it all. It will work out eventually and none of us will have a thing to get all upset about even if there is a work stoppage. It's just entertainment.

Tsstamper, how did you become a Dolphin fan growing up in Kansas? I would think you would be a fan of the Chiefs and Royals.

My brother, dad and I were watching the Super Bowl after the 1982 season. I was 8 and he was 5. My dad made us go to bed at halftime, and we sort of just each picked who we wanted to win. To this day, we've maintained our fanaticism, though I moreso than he. That's it - no logic, no regional bias, not even a Marino quite yet.

In 4th grade, I wrote a letter to Dan Marino and got a reply with an autographed picture. That's probably what catapulted me from fan for no reason to having a great reason.

I honestly don't remember why I became an A's fan. It could have been just that they were a team on the rise when I began liking pro baseball. Over half the Royals games I went to were when the A's visited KC. I got to sit with Rickey Henderson's parents once.

Funny about ownership. I'm a small-biz owner and I own a few rental properties, so I should probably be more aligned with the owners from that perspective. I've never been in a union, so I don't know what that's like.

"Funny about ownership. I'm a small-biz owner and I own a few rental properties, so I should probably be more aligned with the owners from that perspective. I've never been in a union, so I don't know what that's like."

Well I own a small business too. And also rental properties. Much in common there.
I was 19 years with the union. The biggest problem with unions IMO is that they discourage advancement. If someone wants to move up into management they lose all seniority and must start from the bottom if they move back. It's all about, "we will take care of you". That's crap IMO.
Also, they always want more without doing more. In other words, same work for more pay. That makes little sense to me.

Sorry for getting off subject.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok well anyone who made an investment 5 years ago
> is probably not doing so hot compared to 15 years
> ago.

Good Point! But doesnt change the reality. If Ross paid 1.1 for the team and stadium, and he could only sell it today for 800 million tops, and he loss money every year since he owned them. Not such a good spot, and why would anyone other then ego, want to lose at least 300 million dollars in 3 years on an assett. I guess it is probably less then he would have loss had he not hornswagled, Micheal Dell, by selling him a huge chunk of related in the midst of the crash end of the peak....


but I doubt any of these owners regret their
> decisions, they are still profitable and will only
> be more so in the future. plus these guys buy
> teams not for the investment potential but for the
> ego boost of being an nfl owner and public figure.

I surely do not think Owners are at all comfortable with their position... Which is why I promise you it will be the players that cave. If it wasnt for ego, I do not think their is a person alive that would value the teams as Mr Ross paid, and believe it is a good short term or long term investment... Now, give each owner an extra 50 million or so a year, and their assetts are no longer in decline and that alone would cover the cost of the huge money that these NFl franchises have been valued at. Currently The owners and NFL executives believe that a team will not sell for what the Dolphins sold for, for another 25-30 years... They plan on changing that or else they all own a bunch of assets that look good but will never be able to sell, with out a huge price cut. Sorry I dont see that happening. I agree though it is hard to feel sorry for a bunch of billionaires, but I wouldnt underestimate their power position or resolve to right the ships again...

Yeah, I'm definitely a meritocracy type, so your short description of union life makes me think it wouldn't be too appealing to me.

I'm going on 20+ years in one of the biggest trade unions (Pipefitters L.U.597) in one of the few remaining strongholds left in the country (Chicago, with New York and California also still being considered strong) 2 points I want to make; 1. Lets not forget why there's unions in the first place, owners greed and lack of safety is why unions were started, and if they vanished it would go right back to the same old, same old. 2. The NFLPA is not what I would even consider a real union in the true sense of the word, some might disagree but it's just my opinion.

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. Lets not forget why there's unions in the first
> place, owners greed and lack of safety is why
> unions were started, and if they vanished it would
> go right back to the same old, same old.


I agree all unions especially in different fields are very different. Some serve a great purpose some seem to not make sense and are a sham IMO.

FOr example, based on why you say there are unions in the first place..
Why do public servants unionize? TO me they unionize to blackmail politicians into pay raises and better pensions for votes... In that arena, Who's greed do we need to be protected from... DO soldiers deserve to make less then Police and fire fighters. SHould soldiers be able to unionize to compete with the Plice and firefighters unions..I belive teachers should make more, they will not becasue they ultimately have the weakest least organized public servant unions. SO they get shafted. I completely disagree with public servants being able to unionize and believe they should be busted.. They are a tool to screw tax payers.. Just my opinion... I am sure plenty are against me...

on the other hand, some of my mentor business associates, a few years before me in the construcion business, use to like unions workers because they gave a better product, were more responsible and reliable...and even though cost more money per hour in the long term saved his projects money and delivered top notch product..One of the last big union construction projects in Miami was Bayside... And the unions supposedly did unbelievable work and saved the GC big cash...

WHy dont you see NFLPA as a real union?

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm going on 20+ years in one of the biggest trade
> unions (Pipefitters L.U.597) in one of the few
> remaining strongholds left in the country
> (Chicago, with New York and California also still
> being considered strong) 2 points I want to make;
> 1. Lets not forget why there's unions in the first
> place, owners greed and lack of safety is why
> unions were started, and if they vanished it would
> go right back to the same old, same old. 2. The
> NFLPA is not what I would even consider a real
> union in the true sense of the word, some might
> disagree but it's just my opinion.

You are correct in saying we need a checks and balance. Take unions out and Government regulation out and we would be back to Child labor.
However, we really need much more reasonable work rules (not talking about safety) that allow cross utilization and make companies more productive. Union workers are not usually the greedy ones. It's the union bosses that are. They use the excuse of job protection to increase union members while causing less production.
Nothing wrong with a company making big money and not sharing it. Reason I say that is because a person should get paid based on worth and not need.

BTW I'm looking for a new employee. Want to move to Denver? We carry Pipe-fitter Certificates here.

I guess I need to get off this band wagon. We are suppose to be talking Football.

2 of my main reasons are;

1. They have de-certified in the past and are attempting to do it now, not very union or strong IMO

2. Been in over 20 years and i've never showed up to a job with an agent and negotiated my pay and benefits. Other then negotiating a labor deal every few years, what exactly does the NFLPA do? Pretty sure agents can negotiate a better CBA for these guys every 5 years.

As a side note; I am pro union in every sense of the word, but i'm not naive enough to ignore that there's bad unions and bad (ie lazy) union memebers out there.....just like in any walk of life.

If your name was "Leon in Arizona" I might take you up on it.

I've been to Arizona. I don't like cactus very much. Say how come you're a Phins fan in Chicago?

I agree with you that I see no reason for the NFLPA. Players negotiate their own contracts anyway. Let them put in clauses that protect them down the road. Such as retirement, injury protection. What good is the NFLPA anyway?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2011 01:03PM by Leon In Denver.

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If your name was "Leon in Arizona" I might take
> you up on it.


Denver is a pretty cool town. Red Rocks, just outside of Denver is a pretty amazing place, not to mention the access to great skiing in the winter. I would rather live in Denver then Arizona...
Why Arizona, never been?

You like the Cardinals more then the Broncos? Big Larry Fitzgerald fan?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/17/2011 01:06PM by Crowder52.

I have no doubt I would love Denver Crowder, but we have good friends in the Phoenix area and we love it out there. Not to mention my wife HATES the cold and snow. I grew up in a Packers household Leon, so liking the Bears was a no no, my best guess is they were winning when I started watching or I liked the color of their uniforms, been hooked ever since

ChyrenB you should have become a state employee here in MA. They have it made over here. Good salaries, very good benefits, and retire after 20 years with a pension of 80% of your highest salary point. It's Fat City, man.

AND our state isn't even in the same financial trouble as CA, FL, NJ, NY etc. Our secret? Have scary cold weather to keep our population down. Fewer people to for the government to serve. Senior Citizens mostly go to Florida to retire, taking their burden to society with them.

The only downside is you'd have to live amongst Patriots fans.

I'm exaggerating of course but MA does get a bad reputation as a place to live, which actually works out to an advantage for us as we don't get overcrowded.