IMO...There are different formulas for building a championship team. You don't have to have a franchise QB but it sure helps.

If you have a dominant defense and a running game...it can be done with a caretaker/efficient QB or ball control offense....ala Ravens/Dilfer and Giants/Manning and Bucs/Johnson and Bears/McMahon

Other than a few examples the SB has been won by teams with a franchise QB. This has been the case for at least the last 20 years.

Snachez may not be a great QB but he makes big plays when it counts. Something I haven't seen much of from Henne.

Another thing...I don't buy the whole "system QB" argument as it pertains to Montana, Young or Aikman. Like them or not, these were excellent QB's IMO.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IMO...There are different formulas for building a
> championship team. You don't have to have a
> franchise QB but it sure helps.
>
> If you have a dominant defense and a running
> game...it can be done with a caretaker/efficient
> QB or ball control offense....ala Ravens/Dilfer
> and Giants/Manning and Bucs/Johnson and
> Bears/McMahon
>
> Other than a few examples the SB has been won by
> teams with a franchise QB. This has been the case
> for at least the last 20 years.
>
> Snachez may not be a great QB but he makes big
> plays when it counts. Something I haven't seen
> much of from Henne.
>
> Another thing...I don't buy the whole "system QB"
> argument as it pertains to Montana, Young or
> Aikman. Like them or not, these were excellent
> QB's IMO.


Well poopie doopies.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Other than a few examples the SB has been won by
> teams with a franchise QB. This has been the case
> for at least the last 20 years.


Well said.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KB, on those great quarterbacks on those great
> teams that have not done much since the
> quarterbacks left, you also have to remember that
> all aspects of those teams were great, not just
> the QB. You mentioned Montana and Young on the
> 49ers. When Joe left, he left the same team for
> Steve to pick up and go forward with.

Yes but also remember that the next year Montana took the Cheifs to the AFC title game. The only one they have ever been to. Great QB = a team that will contend.

>
> Let's suppose Henne leaves tomorrow, what kind of
> team will he leave his successor. Do you REALLY
> THINK that all you have to do for us to have a
> GREAT team is to replace Henne with a GREAT
> quarterback?

I think that if we had a better QB we would have had at least 3 more wins this year (possibly 4 counting the Pittsburgh robbery). One of those would have been the first Jets game giving us an even record with and the tie breaker over them. Scoff all you want we should have been in the playoffs.

>You're wrong and you're setting
> yourself up for one tremendous disappointment.

I've been disappointed for quite a while now. I'd rather be disappointed watching a good QB and an exciting passing game than watching Henne stink it up.

JC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > Yes but also remember that the next year
> Montana
> > took the Cheifs to the AFC title game. The
> only
> > one they have ever been to. Great QB = a team
> > that will contend.
> >
> > >
>
> Surely you have forgotten the 1971 season, when
> our Dolphins beat the Chiefs in the longest game
> in NFL history,? that was an AFC title game that
> we won taking us to our first super bowl.
>
>
> Edited to add: not to take away from Montana's
> accomplishment; Lenny Dawson was a phenomenal QB.

Technically JC that was an AFL championship game NOT an AFC championship game. The first AFC championship game wasn't played until the end of the 70-71 season (after the merger).

KB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JC Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > KB Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes but also remember that the next year
> > Montana
> > > took the Cheifs to the AFC title game. The
> > only
> > > one they have ever been to. Great QB = a
> team
> > > that will contend.
> > >
> > > >
> >
> > Surely you have forgotten the 1971 season, when
> > our Dolphins beat the Chiefs in the longest
> game
> > in NFL history,? that was an AFC title game
> that
> > we won taking us to our first super bowl.
> >
> >
> > Edited to add: not to take away from
> Montana's
> > accomplishment; Lenny Dawson was a phenomenal
> QB.
>
> Technically JC that was an AFL championship game
> NOT an AFC championship game. The first AFC
> championship game wasn't played until the end of
> the 70-71 season (after the merger).

Dead wrong here. It was an AFC chanpionship game.

Leon In Denver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > JC Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > KB Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes but also remember that the next year
> > > Montana
> > > > took the Cheifs to the AFC title game. The
> > > only
> > > > one they have ever been to. Great QB = a
> > team
> > > > that will contend.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Surely you have forgotten the 1971 season,
> when
> > > our Dolphins beat the Chiefs in the longest
> > game
> > > in NFL history,? that was an AFC title game
> > that
> > > we won taking us to our first super bowl.
> > >
> > >
> > > Edited to add: not to take away from
> > Montana's
> > > accomplishment; Lenny Dawson was a phenomenal
> > QB.
> >
> > Technically JC that was an AFL championship
> game
> > NOT an AFC championship game. The first AFC
> > championship game wasn't played until the end
> of
> > the 70-71 season (after the merger).
>
> Dead wrong here. It was an AFC chanpionship game.

OK, so I looked back (memory is a little fuzzy, I was 7) We are both wrong. There was an afc championship game that year. We beat the Colts. The Chiefs were our DIVISIONAL game. (24-27 2 OT, the DAY OF THE DOLPHINS) or so says wikipedia...

KB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Technically JC that was an AFL championship game
> NOT an AFC championship game. The first AFC
> championship game wasn't played until the end of
> the 70-71 season (after the merger).

Everything I've ever read says the merger was in 1970.

The game I am referring to is the 1971 post-season. The date was on Christmas Day, 1971. It was, by all accounts of my recollection and everything I recall reading, the AFC championship for the 1971 season.

I recall the game well. Dawson and Podolak were getting major yardage all day long. Jan Stenereud missed three FGs. Garo hit the winning FG in second overtime, after I'd scurried out into the hallway of my grandmother's house and secretly said a prayer for him to make it. My grandmother saw me, and I was embarrassed.

Later on in the offseason, my grandfather bumped into Garo at the bank. He told Garo about my being caught praying for him to make the kick. Garo scribbled a note on a blank deposit slip saying "thanks for the prayer" and his autograph. I somehow lost the autograph but it meant the world to me back then.

Memories like these are what cemented my bond with this team, and are the reason why I will never even consider abandoning this team or rooting for someone else, as i"ve seen several times on this board.

phew...anyway I'm pretty sure it was an AFC championship game

KB Wrote:
--------------------------
>
> OK, so I looked back (memory is a little fuzzy, I
> was 7) We are both wrong. There was an afc
> championship game that year. We beat the Colts.
> The Chiefs were our DIVISIONAL game. (24-27 2 OT,
> the DAY OF THE DOLPHINS) or so says wikipedia...

Wikipedia is wrong as hell, then.

JC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KB Wrote:
> --------------------------
> >
> > OK, so I looked back (memory is a little fuzzy,
> I
> > was 7) We are both wrong. There was an afc
> > championship game that year. We beat the Colts.
>
> > The Chiefs were our DIVISIONAL game. (24-27 2
> OT,
> > the DAY OF THE DOLPHINS) or so says
> wikipedia...
>
> Wikipedia is wrong as hell, then.


You question the Wiki? OHHHH no..

Hey maybe I'm nuts.

Further research required.

ETA: Wait I don't need to research, we all know I"m nuts...did you see that rambling post I made above?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2011 08:37AM by JC.

Wow we beat the colts more times than I remember back then.

Oh well I was partly right.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> IMO...There are different formulas for building a
> championship team. You don't have to have a
> franchise QB but it sure helps.

RESPONSE: No one would dispute this. It sure helps.

>
> If you have a dominant defense and a running
> game...it can be done with a caretaker/efficient
> QB or ball control offense....ala Ravens/Dilfer
> and Giants/Manning and Bucs/Johnson and
> Bears/McMahon

RESPONSE: Correct. And even in our own history, as much maligned as is David Woodley, remember in that SuperBowl we were leading when Joe Theisman was back in his endzone to pass. The pass was deflected straight up into the air vertically and was about to drop into the arms of Kim Bokamper for a touchdown. Theisman pulled on one of Bokamper's arms resulting in the ball falling harmlessly to the ground.

Had Theisman not made that play, with our great defense and what would have been (as I remember it) a 14 point lead, Riggins would have been effectively taken out of the game leading the Redskins to rely solely on Theisman trying to pass with Bokamper and AJ Duhe constantly on his ass and we would have won our third SuperBowl.

And remember David Woodley was the guy who we replaced with Dan Marino who never came as close to winning a SuperBowl as San Francisco and Montana blew us out.

This is not to say that you should not strive to get the best quarterback you can get but it is to say that you cannot think that a great quarterback is a magic Talisman or even that you cannot win a SuperBowl WITHOUT a great quarterback as the point is that we almost did with David Woodley.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2011 08:55AM by ChyrenB.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eesti Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > IMO...There are different formulas for building
> a
> > championship team. You don't have to have a
> > franchise QB but it sure helps.
>
> RESPONSE: No one would dispute this. It sure
> helps.
>
> >
> > If you have a dominant defense and a running
> > game...it can be done with a
> caretaker/efficient
> > QB or ball control offense....ala Ravens/Dilfer
> > and Giants/Manning and Bucs/Johnson and
> > Bears/McMahon
>
> RESPONSE: Correct. And even in our own history,
> as much maligned as is David Woodley, remember in
> that SuperBowl we were leading when Joe Theisman
> was back in his endzone to pass. The pass was
> deflected straight up into the air vertically and
> was about to drop into the arms of Kim Bokamper
> for a touchdown. Theisman pulled on one of
> Bokamper's arms resulting in the ball falling
> harmlessly to the ground.
>
> Had Theisman not made that play, with our great
> defense and what would have been (as I remember
> it) a 14 point lead, Riggins would have been
> effectively taken out of the game leading the
> Redskins to rely solely on Theisman trying to pass
> with Bokamper and AJ Duhe constantly on his ass
> and we would have won our third SuperBowl.
>
> And remember David Woodley was the guy who we
> replaced with Dan Marino who never came as close
> to winning a SuperBowl as San Francisco and
> Montana blew us out.
>
> This is not to say that you should not strive to
> get the best quarterback you can get but it is to
> say that you cannot think that a great quarterback
> is a magic Talisman or even that you cannot win a
> SuperBowl WITHOUT a great quarterback as the point
> is that we almost did with David Woodley.

OK, Chyren, I know it's Friday afternoon and the bourbon is already out, but let me get this straight...You're advocating David Woodley over Dan Marino? Yea, what did that Shula know anyway.

First your argument is based on a strike bowl. Our regular season ended 7-2 and we were still tied for second in the division. We likely wouldn't have been there if it were a real season with real playoffs instead of a 'tournament'

Second, We had 176 yards of total offense 80 yards passing and 76 of those came on ONE Play. So for the entire rest of the game Woodley threw for FOUR yards. He only completed FOUR PASSES FOR GOODNESS SAKES. Those were truly the days of the Dlphins (No O).

If you want to conjecture about what if Thiesman hadn't made that play, What if Dam Marino had been playing? Dolphins 51 Redskins 10. You honestly believe the 84 or 85 Dolphins wouldn't have CRUSHED the Redskins?

Of course a good QB isn't a magic talisman. But a bad one is most certianly a cursed tiki

If you want to build a team based on average QB play, fine. But those teams are always 'flash in the pan'. If you look historically, the teams that have stayed competitive for the longest periods have had franchise level QB's that generate a lot of offense.

JC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow we beat the colts more times than I remember
> back then.
>
> Oh well I was partly right.

I was ALL right (well originaly anyway). The Cheifs have only played in ONE AFC Championship game.

KB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I was ALL right (well originaly anyway).


You're "all right" in my book.

JC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > I was ALL right (well originaly anyway).
>
>
> You're "all right" in my book.

Well that makes 1