Phinsfan2 Wrote:
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> 3) Change OC's. Not just for the sake of change
> but in order to open up the offense. If this
> means changing head coaches then do it.
>
>
>
> Ideal scenario is to fire Sparano and Hire Gruden.

I don't recall Gruden being a big offensive coach. Tampa's Superbowl win was won with defense, not offense. Gruden prefers a conservative run-oriented offense with short passes.

dolfanmark
"And off the top of my head, one of those to Marshall would have been good for a 50 yard gain, and another to Hartline was one where he was wide open 25 yards downfield with room to run.'

Isn't this a little contradictory? First you say Marshall can't get deep and then talk about him dropping a 50yrd pass.
I've been watching Marshall from day 1. The guy can get open down field and with his height and strength he can out fight most DBs successfully.

Problem is the plays being run. How do you get anyone open sending only 2 receivers out? Spread the field and send out 4 receivers. Get him one on one or even double covered and he will have more success. This will also open up someone else.

The biggest problem we have is the OL with a lousy OC period. Biggest disappointment this year by far.

g_fish55 Wrote:
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> i have always been a Henne supporter and as vocal
> as i can be for as little as im here in my support
> for him.
>
> I would like to point out that now that were
> throwing real facts about his stats and why he is
> doing good, the Henne haters have seemingly
> disappeared.
>
> And to the Henne haters, yes, thats me calling you
> all out. Where ya at?

I am right here. I have supported my opinion on why he isn't good or wont make it. Just because you have a good completion percentage doesnt make you a good QB. Just like Pennington with a good completion percentage, how many Super Bowls do they have? Give me a better stat, like wins vs losses. I could care less if he was 1 for twenty if that one was a touchdown pass and we won the game.

It is like anything else in life. One has to take some big chances to make big gains. I know there is more to the problem then just him but he is one part of the problem. He should be more developed by this point. And I have posted many specifics on my reasoning as the year has gone along. I have watched every game for the past seven years and I have watched 95% of them for the past eleven. I have seen many QBs come and go and the wins and loses are the only stats I look at.

Win/Loss record is the dumbest stat for a QB. Also for a baseball pitcher.

Football teams win or loose. If you believe in this stat then you must think Marino sucked.

All that being said, I also think that completion percentage and yardage is way over blown.

Did anyone see that game last night? No one is going to tell me that Orton did not do as well as can be expected. Fact is the Broncos just flat suck and were no match for the Chargers offense or defense.
So what do we do? Blame the QB. That is bull.

Leon In Denver Wrote:
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> dolfanmark
> "And off the top of my head, one of those to
> Marshall would have been good for a 50 yard gain,
> and another to Hartline was one where he was wide
> open 25 yards downfield with room to run.'
>
> Isn't this a little contradictory? First you say
> Marshall can't get deep and then talk about him
> dropping a 50yrd pass.
> I've been watching Marshall from day 1. The guy
> can get open down field and with his height and
> strength he can out fight most DBs successfully.
>
> Problem is the plays being run. How do you get
> anyone open sending only 2 receivers out? Spread
> the field and send out 4 receivers. Get him one on
> one or even double covered and he will have more
> success. This will also open up someone else.
>
> The biggest problem we have is the OL with a lousy
> OC period. Biggest disappointment this year by
> far.


No, it's not contradictory. I never said Marshall can't ever get open deep. Sometimes he can. But, it's not his game. Never has been. He is not fast. He does not run away from people. He is a 4.6 guy. He has averaged 12.1 yards per catch for his entire career. His single season best yards per catch is 13.0. His last year in Denver, it was 11.1. He is not a deep threat at the position. Yes, with his size, he can occasionally make a big play downfield. But, not consistently. He has never shown this ability, and it's not magically going to appear.

psalm462 Wrote:
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> So then what are we missing? Is it we just don't
> have good receivers or bad play calling: no
> screens, bunch formation, motion.


There are still a combination of factors.

Number 1, we can't run the ball. This regime's philosophy is to be a run first offense, a dominant running attack. But, that plan has been short circuited by incredibly poor guard play, and the fact that both Ricky and Ronnie appear to have lost a step.

Number 2, we don't have a deep threat at WR. There is no one on the roster who scares another team that he is going to run by them. Both Bess and Marshall are guys who run short and intermediate routes. Look at their career stats. They are not downfield guys. That leaves Brian Hartline as the guy who tries to stretch the field. But, he's a 4.55 guy. He doesn't scare anyone. He has done very well the last 3 games. If he can continue that, then maybe things start to change. But, until someone is afraid of a deep threat, the safeties are going to play close to the line of scrimmage. This has two effects. It allows them to help plug our poor running game, and it clogs the underneath routes for receivers.

Number 3, the interior of the line's poor pass protection. We allow too much of a pass rush up the middle. A Qb can deal with pressure from the edges. When it comes up the middle, it's devastating.

Number 4, the Red Zone issue. Ultimately, this goes back to number 1. We can't run the ball. The last two years, this team could run the ball in the red zone. When you really think about it, we've struggled to pass in the red zone for years, even with Pennington at the helm. Pennington could not close out two minute drills, because once the threat of the run was gone, he couldn't fit the ball into tight spaces. If running was still an option, Pennington did a good job in the red zone, particularly with throwing to the TEs. But, being able to pass in the red zone when other teams knew we had to pass? That was another story. And we are in that boat all the time now. Marshall draws double and triple coverage. Neither Bess nor Hartline are physical guys, so they aren't going to win those tight battles in the red zone. And think about all of our receivers. Do you ever see them get a lot of separation? That's magnified as a problem in the red zone. We still lack weapons to work with, and the inability to run is a killer.

Number 5, the 2nd TE. No TE has a catch other than Fasano. If we go to a 2 TE set, why would the other team pay any attention to Shuler or Mastrud?

Number 6, the playcalling. Part of this is that we were supposed to be a running team. But, that doesn't explain everything. How many times have you seen this team turn conservative once they get inside the 30, seemingly being happy with a FG attempt? We recover a fumble against the Steelers inside the 15, and we run the ball 3 times? Against the league's #1 run defense? Really? It would probably surprise people to know Chad Henne's actual red zone stats. He only has 31 pass attempts in the red zone. He's completed 17 of them, with 6 TD and 1 INT, and a passer rating of 90.5. Meanwhile, Ronnie Brown has 15 carries in the red zone for 31 yards. He has 6 carries for 2 yards inside the 10. Ricky Williams has 40 yards on 9 carries in the red zone, but just 1 yard on 2 carries inside the 10. So, how pathetic is that inside the 10? Our two stud RB have 8 carries for 3 yards inside the 10. They only have 23 combined carries in the red zone in 10 games. And Henne only has 31 pass attempts. The problem is we rarely get to the redzone. And a big part of that is the conservative approach once we get into FG range.

dolfanmark,
The point I'm making about Marshall is this. I don't care if he is slow for a WR (really not) he still can get deep and so can Hartline. The problem is, as you say, a bad OL and running game. Play calling is terrible. How many times, even before the OL became injured, did Henning call anything deep?

Look, you have to play the game. All of the game. The deep play must be used. Send BM deep on a post or something and he will draw double coverage from the corner and safety. Send Hartling deep fly or something. That draws corner on that side. Send Bess on his short routes and a TE or Back out too. Throw the rock and let them fight for it. Something good might just happen.

The line has to block as they were early on but nothing deep was ever called.

Red Zone is always harder to pass on. The short field takes away the speed receivers except to the corners.

You are right that for a team to succeed in the red zone they MUST have a true running threat. That makes everything else work.

Too many words but the point is there. We need a new OC for sure.

Leon In Denver Wrote:
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> dolfanmark,
> The point I'm making about Marshall is this. I
> don't care if he is slow for a WR (really not) he
> still can get deep and so can Hartline.

But, what is this based on, with regard to Marshall? His stats show that he has not been a deep threat to this point in his career. He averages 12 yards per catch for his career, and a TD about every 15 catches. Neither of those numbers is very good. He is a possession receiver. A very good one, with potential for big plays because of how he breaks tackles. But, he is not a deep threat.

"Just because you have a good completion percentage doesn't make you a good QB" What? Of course it does. QB's don't call the games anymore, that's done from the sidelines. QB's are there to complete passes and hand off, nothing more. Henne clearly does that well. As for Pennington, the more pertinent question is, "How many playoff games did he take his teams to?" And the answer is, a hell of a lot. You know as well as I do that anything can happen in the playoffs, and usually does. The key is to GET to the playoffs, and a QB who has a high completion percentage is going to do that for you.

Rick

And yet, teams without a QB who is seen as "elite" at this time still manage to score touchdowns.

Rick

Henne sucks. What's the next question?

We need a legit NFL QB. All this debate over Henne is simply meaningless...

Henne is a winner. Look at the score board, rankfish.

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"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"