By Lifetime stats per season, I mean you are looking at rankings and then seeing what season those stats were obtained in instead of looking at lifetime passing yardage, lifetime winning percentages, etc.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now, we finish it off by saying that if it is HARD
> TO EVEN TALK ABOUT the better boxer IN A SINGLE
> MAN SPORT using only the broadest of critieria
> which is WON AND LOST RECORD, then .........
>
> how much more froth with danger and uncertainty is
> what you are trying to do, that is, JUDGING THE
> LEVEL OF GREATNESS IN A TEAM SPORT BASED ON
> INDIVIDUAL STATS.
>
>
> Got it, now?????????????????? Awww, forget it.
> The rest of the readers do.



Uhhhhh, WHAT????

MikeO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 3 Super Bowl wins. In all of them he had big-time
> LATE GAME drives that led his team to victory. The
> guy wins, has huge numbers, and oh yeah....HE
> WINS!!!!!! And he won with little to no talent
> around him on offense.


Little to no talent around him??? See your next comment and stop contradicting yourself.

>
> And yeah his o-line was good.......WHAT TEAM AND
> QB WON A SUPER BOWL WITH A BAD O-LINE???? Please,
> that is a silly point to bring up!! All great
> teams have a good o-line so to hold that against
> Brady is foolish and silly. Three Super Bowl wins
> in 4 apperances, a perfect regular season which he
> was the QB of, he hold EVERY meaningful single
> season passing record in league history, he has
> hall of fame stas.......Look I know we all hate
> the pats, but jesus christ give the guy his due.
> Nobody is saying he is the greatest QB of all time
> , but he has a resume that puts him in the Top 5
> or 6 on that list and in the conversation!


EVERY meaningful single season passing record in league history??? Read my earlier post, or better yet, go read the records for yourself. He hold ONE, count them...ONE, single season record. MOST TD's. That's it! Nothing else. He holds Nil, Nada, Zero other single season records.


I wish everyone would stop confusing team stats with individual stats. wins and losses are team stats, not qb stats.

I'm not saying Brady's not a really good qb but statistically, he's NOT a GREAT qb. And to say top 5 or 6....well everyone's entitled to their opinion but he's not in my top 15!

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Simple, if you can't even judge who is the
> greatest of boxers by won and lost record, how can
> you judge who is the greatest of quarterbacks by
> selected statistics alone?
>
> particularly YOUR statistics which wierdly seem to
> be based on who holds the all time single season
> rankings in specified statistical categories.
>
> I mean you point out that all of TB's rankings are
> based on the 2007 season. Therefore your rankings
> are not based on career performances, which anyone
> else would do, but are based on who ranked highest
> in a given category BY SEASON.......not by career
> as the rest of us have seen it done.


What are you smoking??? They're not my stats!!! Have you even read the link??? The stats I posted are the ONLY, I repeat ONLY, place Tom Brady is listed in the NFL record books. Go check out the link in my original post. Find me somewhere Brady's mentioned in the record books other than a seasonal (2007) record.

He has NO lifetime records. None!

GBOFinFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not saying Brady's not a really good qb but
> statistically, he's NOT a GREAT qb. And to say top
> 5 or 6....well everyone's entitled to their
> opinion but he's not in my top 15!

I'm guessing you have multiple guys on that list that never won a championship. Not sure how that makes sense.

GBOFinFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Little to no talent around him??? See your next
> comment and stop contradicting yourself.
>
MIKEO WROTE:
> > And yeah his o-line was good.......WHAT TEAM
> AND
> > QB WON A SUPER BOWL WITH A BAD O-LINE????
> Please,
> > that is a silly point to bring up!! All great
> > teams have a good o-line so to hold that
> against
> > Brady is foolish and silly.

RESPONSE: You call that a contradiction??? He is just saying you don't get anywhere WITH A LOUSY OFFENSIVE LINE. That's not the same thing as saying that he had A GREAT offensive line.

GBOFinFan wrote:
> EVERY meaningful single season passing record in
> league history??? Read my earlier post, or better
> yet, go read the records for yourself. He hold
> ONE, count them...ONE, single season record. MOST
> TD's. That's it! Nothing else. He holds Nil, Nada,
> Zero other single season records.

RESPONSE: That's a pretty big one. But like I said, it is dicey to try to judge greatest in a team sport by individual stats.


GBOFinFan wrote:
>
> I wish everyone would stop confusing team stats
> with individual stats. wins and losses are team
> stats, not qb stats.

RESPONSE: Yes they are different but when you try to equate overall greatest based on individual stats alone in a team game, you are just as guilty as those who try to equate team success with individual greatest.

Hey, I'm a Dolphin fan because of Bob Griese. He took us to 3 straight SuperBowls and won the last 2.

But do I think that Griese is as great as Marino, who never won a SuperBowl and only got to play in one? No!

Did Griese have a better team around him? Yes, without a doubt, I'll concede. But put Marino on Griese's team and we win that SuperBowl against Dallas and perhaps a couple of more after the second.

But by the same token, put Marino on a lesser team and I'll bet he still racks up the passing yardage, Dan Fouts did.

So you really can't totally look at the team stats and you can't totally look at the individual stats.

You've just got to judge the performance, an admittedly subjective standard but MikeO nailed it when he talked about the last minute drives, the clutch passes, the same thing Joe Montana was famous for.

I don't know what your bug about Brady is. Hey, as long as he is playing for the Patsies against us, I wish him no success but just talking about greatness, you've got to hand it to him.


>
> I'm not saying Brady's not a really good qb but
> statistically, he's NOT a GREAT qb. And to say top
> 5 or 6....well everyone's entitled to their
> opinion but he's not in my top 15!

RESPONSE: Not even in your top 15??????? What did you say about ridiculousness speaking for itself?

GBOFinFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> What are you smoking??? They're not my stats!!!
> Have you even read the link??? The stats I posted

RESPONSE: Right! You posted the stats to prove a point. Of course, you did not compile the stats. But you presented them to us to make a point. So they are your stats. No one is saying that you are cooking the books. We are just saying that your stats (the stats you bring to our attention if you must) don't prove what you are trying to advance, i.e., that Brady is NOT a great quarterback.


> are the ONLY, I repeat ONLY, place Tom Brady is
> listed in the NFL record books. Go check out the
> link in my original post. Find me somewhere
> Brady's mentioned in the record books other than a
> seasonal (2007) record.
>
> He has NO lifetime records. None!

RESPONSE: Of course he has a lifetime record. EVERYONE has a lifetime record. Do you mean instead that he does not hold the FIRST PLACE RECORD in any category?

Well, tell us who holds the lifetime career record in each of the categories that you have compiled. Certainly that must be easier to find than the season record in all those different categories.

After you tell us which players hold the lifetime career records in all of those categories you posted single season stats for, then we'll judge who measures up by being on or off the list.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GBOFinFan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > What are you smoking??? They're not my stats!!!
> > Have you even read the link??? The stats I
> posted
>
> RESPONSE: Right! You posted the stats to prove a
> point. Of course, you did not compile the stats.
> But you presented them to us to make a point. So
> they are your stats.

Here's what I did. I searched that page (the NFL RECORD AND FACT BOOK) for Tom Brady and posted EVERY SINGLE stat he had on that page. I left nothing out. If there was a career record for him on that page, I would've listed it. There wasn't. ONLY 2007 stats. I don't know how else to say it.

No one is saying that you
> are cooking the books. We are just saying that
> your stats (the stats you bring to our attention
> if you must) don't prove what you are trying to
> advance, i.e., that Brady is NOT a great
> quarterback.

The absence of a single career record, I believe, makes my point. If the man isn't top 3 in ANY "career stat" then what else is there to say?
>
>
> > are the ONLY, I repeat ONLY, place Tom Brady is
> > listed in the NFL record books. Go check out
> the
> > link in my original post. Find me somewhere
> > Brady's mentioned in the record books other than
> a
> > seasonal (2007) record.
> >
> > He has NO lifetime records. None!
>
> RESPONSE: Of course he has a lifetime record.
> EVERYONE has a lifetime record. Do you mean
> instead that he does not hold the FIRST PLACE
> RECORD in any category?

Splitting hairs. Of course, I mean OWNS the record.

>
> Well, tell us who holds the lifetime career record
> in each of the categories that you have compiled.
> Certainly that must be easier to find than the
> season record in all those different categories.
>
> After you tell us which players hold the lifetime
> career records in all of those categories you
> posted single season stats for, then we'll judge
> who measures up by being on or off the list.

Now I feel like I'm back in college and trying to defend my thesis.

GBOFinFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I'm not saying Brady's not a really good qb but
> statistically, he's NOT a GREAT qb. And to say top
> 5 or 6....well everyone's entitled to their
> opinion but he's not in my top 15!



NOT Top 15!?! Ok, you have no idea what your talking about. No use even continuing.

What is Jim Brown your 12th rated running back of all time? Is Jerry Rice your 8th rated WR of all time? Bill Walsh the 9th rated head coach of all time?

If you want to say Brady is Top 10 being in the lower half of the Top 10, I would disagree but say thats not unfair. NOT Top 15....that is just clueless and laughable. Really bro, learn a little about football



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2010 05:22PM by MikeO.

MikeO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GBOFinFan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > I'm not saying Brady's not a really good qb but
> > statistically, he's NOT a GREAT qb. And to say
> top
> > 5 or 6....well everyone's entitled to their
> > opinion but he's not in my top 15!
>
>
>
> NOT Top 15!?! Ok, you have no idea what your
> talking about. No use even continuing.
>
> What is Jim Brown your 12th rated running back of
> all time? Is Jerry Rice your 8th rated WR of all
> time? Bill Walsh the 9th rated head coach of all
> time?
>
> If you want to say Brady is Top 10 being in the
> lower half of the Top 10, I would disagree but say
> thats not unfair. NOT Top 15....that is just
> clueless and laughable. Really bro, learn a little
> about football

Based on WHAT? Three superbowls? Phil Simms won two. He's not in my top 15 either.

**message board bad boy**??? Now that's laughable...bro.

GBOFinFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Moon, Fouts, and of course Marino. None of the
> three won a championship and all three are on in
> my top 15.
Moon over Brady? Really? WOW! Fouts? That's arguable.

> Simms has two SB's. Dilfer has one. Neither are in
> my top 15. I don't understand why that doesn't
> make sense.
I'm not saying winning championships is the ONLY criteria. Baltimore one IN SPITE OF Dilfer. Brady never had the top defense in the league to work with. Brady also never had the top offense in the years he won Superbowls.

GBOFinFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Based on WHAT? Three superbowls? Phil Simms won
> two. He's not in my top 15 either.
>



Brady has hall of fame numbers. Simms doesn't. Simms didn't even play in the Giants 2nd super bowl, not even in the playoffs that year. Hell he left the game at halftime of that super bowl and went to the hotel and went to bed. Didn't even watch the end of the game.

You have no facts and this is silly. Brady not a Top 15 all time QB, please.

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GBOFinFan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Moon, Fouts, and of course Marino. None of the
> > three won a championship and all three are on
> in
> > my top 15.
> Moon over Brady? Really? WOW! Fouts? That's
> arguable.
>

Moon over Brady is a joke. Moon having a 35-3 halftime lead in a playoff game and losing.....NUFF SAID! Takes him out of the top 10, and top 15 of any list!!!

Not only did Moon never win anything, he never even "came close" at least. You can knock Marino and Foutes for not winning but at least they were in big games in January in their careers and won a couple just not the big one! Moon never even got that far

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GBOFinFan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Moon, Fouts, and of course Marino. None of the
> > three won a championship and all three are on
> in
> > my top 15.
> Moon over Brady? Really? WOW! Fouts? That's
> arguable.
>
> > Simms has two SB's. Dilfer has one. Neither are
> in
> > my top 15. I don't understand why that doesn't
> > make sense.
> I'm not saying winning championships is the ONLY
> criteria. Baltimore one IN SPITE OF Dilfer.
> Brady never had the top defense in the league to
> work with. Brady also never had the top offense
> in the years he won Superbowls.


Warren Moon - 5th all time passing yards,
9 Pro Bowls

Tom Brady - 31st all time passing yards
5 Pro Bowls

Granted Brady's still playing but his glory days are behind him. He has an aging receiving corp and a young defense. No more championships for him. Only stats!

GBOFinFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Warren Moon - 5th all time passing yards,
> 9 Pro Bowls
>
> Tom Brady - 31st all time passing yards
> 5 Pro Bowls
>

RESPONSE: Thank you for proving my point that selecting stats in a team game is fraught with danger.

Warren Moon (Univ. Wash.) was a good quarterback but to even put him in the same league with Tom Brady is well, just not sustainable.

no more championships for him...lol lol lol lol. Yeah he only has 3 rings.

And Moon has.....ZERO!!

ha ha ha ha ha, yeah ok. This is too funny. Can't make this stuff up!

MikeO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Moon over Brady is a joke. Moon having a 35-3
> halftime lead in a playoff game and
> losing.....NUFF SAID! Takes him out of the top 10,
> and top 15 of any list!!!

That's the most asenine thing I've ever heard but since Brady gave up a 35-21 lead with 4 mins. left last year, I guess that should take him down a couple spots in your book.
>
> Not only did Moon never win anything, he never
> even "came close" at least. You can knock Marino
> and Foutes for not winning but at least they were
> in big games in January in their careers and won a
> couple just not the big one! Moon never even got
> that far


That's right. He's a perfect example of a great QB on a BAD team.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GBOFinFan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Warren Moon - 5th all time passing yards,
> > 9 Pro Bowls
> >
> > Tom Brady - 31st all time passing yards
> > 5 Pro Bowls
> >
>
> RESPONSE: Thank you for proving my point that
> selecting stats in a team game is fraught with
> danger.
>
> Warren Moon (Univ. Wash.) was a good quarterback
> but to even put him in the same league with Tom
> Brady is well, just not sustainable.

Ok, let me get this right. The 5th all time passer isn't in the same league as the 31st? Why? Because he was relegated to play on BAD teams?

You are comparing a 32 pt lead to 14 pt lead.....oh my god. Give me a break!

Houston was a bad team. Hell they were in the playoffs damn near every year with Moon. Saying Moon was on bad teams is a flat out lie.

And Brady was on good teams and HE made them great. Moon was on good teams and made them worse at times and never made them great.

GBOFinFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Again, tell me HOW he's in the conversation with
> the top guys? Win-loss ratio? Superbowl wins?
> Rothlisburger won a superbowl with a QB rating of
> just over 20! Trent Dilfer won a superbowl. You
> have to look at the career numbers. If one can be
> considered a GREAT QB based on wins and losses
> then heck, lets throw Troy Aikmen up there too!
>
> What has he accomplished top put him up there with
> best guys AT HIS POSITION? He's had ONE great
> year. The rest of his career, he's ridden the coat
> tails of great defenses and probably some of the
> best O-lines ever assembled.
>

Thank god someone in Dolphin land has come to their senses. I was beginning to thing this board had gone Mikey and started buying all the crap ESPN has been shilling out on Brady. He had one big season thanks to having two HOF receivers in their primes. Yet he still didn't win the SB that year, so that makes him a choke artist.

I place Brady somewhere around Terry Bradshaw. A slightly above average QB who was in the right place at the right time. Is he one of the greatest ever? Heck no. He was on a few good teams that won a few, thanks to a good kicker, some solid defense, cheating by the head coach, and an owner that polishes the comishs' nob. But Brady never carried that team to a SB win, he's just a figure head for a good team - like the friggen queen of England.

Frankly I'm embarrassed by the amount of Brady worship I'm seeing by Dolphin fans. Snap out of it you pansies. You've been brainwashed by the Boston media to think this guy belongs next to Marino. Seriously - one good season does not make a Marino (or Moon, Elway, Montana, Young, or even an Aikman...). Some of it is just downright sickening and cowardly.

(I think I accidentally sent a PM to Ghotirule. Oh well)

Ghotirule: How does one good season translate into 3 Superbowls? Also, the ONE good season was an undefeated regular season with a Superbowl appearance! Plenty of other QBs have played with HoF WRs, but how many had undefeated regular seasons?

BTW: Besides Moss, who is the other HoF WR that he had on that team?

ghotirule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GBOFinFan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Again, tell me HOW he's in the conversation
> with
> > the top guys? Win-loss ratio? Superbowl wins?
> > Rothlisburger won a superbowl with a QB rating
> of
> > just over 20! Trent Dilfer won a superbowl. You
> > have to look at the career numbers. If one can
> be
> > considered a GREAT QB based on wins and losses
> > then heck, lets throw Troy Aikmen up there too!
> >
> > What has he accomplished top put him up there
> with
> > best guys AT HIS POSITION? He's had ONE great
> > year. The rest of his career, he's ridden the
> coat
> > tails of great defenses and probably some of
> the
> > best O-lines ever assembled.
> >
>
> Thank god someone in Dolphin land has come to
> their senses. I was beginning to thing this board
> had gone Mikey and started buying all the crap
> ESPN has been shilling out on Brady. He had one
> big season thanks to having two HOF receivers in
> their primes. Yet he still didn't win the SB that
> year, so that makes him a choke artist.
>
> I place Brady somewhere around Terry Bradshaw. A
> slightly above average QB who was in the right
> place at the right time. Is he one of the
> greatest ever? Heck no. He was on a few good
> teams that won a few, thanks to a good kicker,
> some solid defense, cheating by the head coach,
> and an owner that polishes the comishs' nob. But
> Brady never carried that team to a SB win, he's
> just a figure head for a good team - like the
> friggen queen of England.
>
> Frankly I'm embarrassed by the amount of Brady
> worship I'm seeing by Dolphin fans. Snap out of
> it you pansies. You've been brainwashed by the
> Boston media to think this guy belongs next to
> Marino. Seriously - one good season does not make
> a Marino (or Moon, Elway, Montana, Young, or even
> an Aikman...). Some of it is just downright
> sickening and cowardly.


Thanks, G. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only Dolphin fan that that wasn't drinking the media Kool-Aid.

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> (I think I accidentally sent a PM to Ghotirule.
> Oh well)
>
> Ghotirule: How does one good season translate
> into 3 Superbowls? Also, the ONE good season was
> an undefeated regular season with a Superbowl
> appearance! Plenty of other QBs have played with
> HoF WRs, but how many had undefeated regular
> seasons?
>
> BTW: Besides Moss, who is the other HoF WR that
> he had on that team?


Exactly. Some of these people just flat out MAKE STUFF UP when they can't win an argument. 2 HOF WR's??? WHO?? Wes Welker isn't a hall of fame player! Not even close.

Tom Brady has 3 Super Bowl rings, holds every single season record, has won huge playoff gamse and some on the road, he has beaten Peyton Manning like a drum for years. Tom Brady is going to go down as one of the greatest QB's of all time. That's no media bias, or ESPN hype.....give the guy his due. Nobody is saying you have to convert and be a Pats fan, but live in reality and try to be somewhat objective.

As much as I hate to even get involved in this conversation I have to say that Tom Brady is one of the best QB's of all time. Hate the guy but respect the athlete