IMO, great signing. The kid has all the tools, big, and fills a need.

As noted, he's a potential head case. Who knows if he is a liability. But Trifecta should be able to sniff that out in about the first 5 minutes of the first practice. Maybe Ireland will ask what his mother does for a living.

In training camp they will see if he breaks. If he is on the opening day roster, he will have been a steal.

Well, well, well. Welcome Back, Ghotirule.

THE ghotirule?? welcome back! I thought you were boycotting the site

Berk, thanks for the welcome. Boycotting? No, not at all.

Hey ghotirule! Missed you on the board. I'm anxious to talk football rather than the latest soap opera gossip about Ireland.

I'm always excited this time of year, but with Marshall coming in it's double this year!

Oh yea, I'm looking forward to the O this year. Jerry is a road grader and should make our ground game so much better. An experience Henne. And finally, a number one receiver who won't choke when the game winning pass is in his hands.

I'm stoked!

Here's to hoping Henne doesn't have the "sophomore slump". I don't think he will, especially with the best receiver in the game at his disposal. I'm expecting a 4k yard season.

Odenn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's to hoping Henne doesn't have the "sophomore
> slump". I don't think he will, especially with the
> best receiver in the game at his disposal. I'm
> expecting a 4k yard season.

Good news is: next year will be his THIRD year. I think sophomore slumps sometime happen because guys' bodies and minds are still adjusting to the offseason/season regiment of the NFL. I don't anticipate a problem with Henne.

I hope our offense is much, much, better and really want to see what Henne can do with more experience and better help. But I, unlike some don't think that the addition of Marshall and a Guard that will take time adapt to the pro game will be enough to get us where we need to be on that side of the ball. We'll need playmakers and while Marshall is certainly that, he won't be able to do enough by himself...JMO.

We have underutilized tight ends, injury prone running backs, slow wide receivers in Bess, Turner and Camarillo and a question mark at quarterback. (Henne with regard to his experience and growth) Optimism is great but we should have tried to do more. We had chances to add those kind of players to the offense but didn't...big risk IMHO, hope it works out though.

Ken I agree that marshall and jerry alone won't do it. but I think we are all counting on henne taking a big next step into being a top QB, Hartline improving, ronnie back healthy for the year, and continued cohesion/improvement in the OL. If all of those things happen (and Marshall should help with all) then I think our offense could be top-10 in the league

Practice squad guy.....hopefully he gets better and impacts!

Let me add that we got rid of a liability in Ginn. Yea, he had 2 returned TDs in the Medowlands, but was an albatross for this offense. A guy who choke when he needed to step up.

I'm happy with Marshall, Bess, Camarillo, and Hartline. And I wouldn't rule out Patrick Turner (who is quite fast) getting into the mix.

One other thing.... Bess is probably the quickest WR on the team. Sure he doesn't have breakaway speed, but I certainly wouldn't use the term "Slow" to describe him.

I think he runs a 4.7. That's 'slow' in the nfl for a wr.

Ken Wrote:
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> We have underutilized tight ends,
Fasano: 6'4", 255
Haynos: 6'8", 270

Undersized? REALLY?

> injury prone running backs,
Only Ronnie Brown is truly injury prone. Cobbs' injury was a rare occurrence. That guy's been very healthy throughout his career. Ricky is also a relatively healthy back if he's not expected to carry the team. Spell him with Hilliard and we should be OK, even if Ronnie isn't back to 100%.

> slow wide receivers in Bess, Turner
> and Camarillo
They're not Tedd Ginn, but with Marshall on the other side they don't need to be. Those guys will only see the field in 3 or 4 WR sets anyway, so they'll get paired up with linebackers or nickle guys. They won't need to be burners

> and a question mark at quarterback.
> (Henne with regard to his experience and growth)
Growth is always a question this early in a QB's career, but he gained a ton of experience last year. He showed is unflappable and can lead 4th quarter comebacks. The presence of Marshall and the solid O-Line will just make it that much easier.

> Optimism is great but we should have tried to do
> more. We had chances to add those kind of players
> to the offense but didn't...big risk IMHO, hope it
> works out though.
How much more? We have, arguably, the best WR in the league making the most $$ of any WR. Our biggest liability last year was defense, not offense (except for Tedd Ginn). So, our focus in the draft was addressing the defense. If our defense was a little better last year, we may have beat the 2 teams that, ultimately, played in the Superbowl! We came close with both!!

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ken Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > We have underutilized tight ends,
> Fasano: 6'4", 255
> Haynos: 6'8", 270
>
> Undersized? REALLY?

RE: I said under UTILIZED...not under SIZED.
>
> > injury prone running backs,
> Only Ronnie Brown is truly injury prone. Cobbs'
> injury was a rare occurrence. That guy's been
> very healthy throughout his career. Ricky is also
> a relatively healthy back if he's not expected to
> carry the team. Spell him with Hilliard and we
> should be OK, even if Ronnie isn't back to 100%.

RE: I agree that our backups are not oft-injured but they are backups for a reason. Hilliard has quite a lot to prove, Cobbs as well. Ricky is very old despite his lack of carries over his career...still question marks none the less.
>
> > slow wide receivers in Bess, Turner
> > and Camarillo
> They're not Tedd Ginn, but with Marshall on the
> other side they don't need to be. Those guys will
> only see the field in 3 or 4 WR sets anyway, so
> they'll get paired up with linebackers or nickle
> guys. They won't need to be burners
>
RE: Speed is important in the NFL and is an area we really need to improve upon...slow WR's are simply easier to cover one on one or in a zone.

> > and a question mark at quarterback.
> > (Henne with regard to his experience and
> growth)
> Growth is always a question this early in a QB's
> career, but he gained a ton of experience last
> year. He showed is unflappable and can lead 4th
> quarter comebacks. The presence of Marshall and
> the solid O-Line will just make it that much
> easier.

RE: Yes, but he has to do it all again and do it better this time around. Marshall will help the offense but exactly how much is up for debate.

>
> > Optimism is great but we should have tried to
> do
> > more. We had chances to add those kind of
> players
> > to the offense but didn't...big risk IMHO, hope
> it
> > works out though.

> How much more? We have, arguably, the best WR in
> the league making the most $$ of any WR.

RE: I for one would have been happy with the addition of one player from this draft as long as that player was D. Thomas, Dez Bryant or outside of the first round Benn. Those three players each had size, speed, strength and ability to greatly elevate the offense. Marshall will be key, no doubt, but one of those guys alongside of Hartline and Marshall would have given us three WR's that all have the ability to do it all on each play regardless of the situation...more is simply better.

Our
> biggest liability last year was defense, not
> offense (except for Tedd Ginn). So, our focus in
> the draft was addressing the defense. If our
> defense was a little better last year, we may have
> beat the 2 teams that, ultimately, played in the
> Superbowl! We came close with both!!

RE: I agree that we needed defensive help...no question about that. But when you have the chance to add a piece to the offense that has the potential to make the unit much more deadly while fitting the prototype player...you simply have to do it.

It would be much the same as if L. Taylor, Bruce Smith or Reggie White was available...you'd have to draft them because it'd be foolish not to.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ken I agree that marshall and jerry alone won't do
> it. but I think we are all counting on henne
> taking a big next step into being a top QB,
> Hartline improving, ronnie back healthy for the
> year, and continued cohesion/improvement in the
> OL. If all of those things happen (and Marshall
> should help with all) then I think our offense
> could be top-10 in the league


Berkely: Absolutely...but another prototype kind of offensive playmaker would only serve to make that improvement easier and much more likely. We had the chance this year and didn't do it. I'm just disppointed that the coaches would be so short sighted. Adressing both sides of the ball is important in each draft for the long term health and viability of the team. The way it is now, we will not only have to address free agents and other losses next season but we will have to add those playmakers (because we are largely deviod of them)...likely on both sides of the ball making it that much harder to cover all of the bases. Then, those players will have reap almost immediate benefits once again.

I think you're mistaken about the speed of our backup WRs. Their watch times may not be great, but they "out-quicked" a lot of DBs last year. We were very effective in the short passing game, and with Hartline, who does have good speed, in the medium game. We were deficient in the long game (a byproduct of Ginn's lack of hands) and our YAC - which is Marshall's long suit. Another rookie WR who will take a few years to become effective is a luxury we can't afford right now.

Rick

I think Hartline is faster than people are giving him credit for. Him and Marshall make a fine pair of WRs, and we have a couple of guys in Bess and Camarillo that are nice complementary players. I do regret getting rid of Ginn Jr., but so be it... I don't think WR will be our limiting position this year.

Actually, I think the offense will be pretty potent in general. But that's just me...

The opinion that we can't rely on this WR group to win games for us is one that I subsrcribe to as well...we need a group that can do just that, game in and game out...even if we don't ask them to do so every game. Once we have that group along with the capability of our running game when healthy our offense will truly be unstoppable.

A hard hitting and stingy defense mirrored by an offense that scares the heck out of every team in the league is what we should be shooting for.

Playmakers on the team will assist greatly in getting there no matter if they take a year or two to develop or not. Those playmakers are a luxury that we must have. It's not a question of whether we can afford them but rather, can we afford NOT have them...IMHO, the answer to that question is no.

ghotirule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But now we got a guy with a rocket arm, TE
> really isn't as important as it was with
> Pennington. However, if one of our RBs go down
> again, or Henne gets injured, then I think we are
> in trouble. I don't think we can rely solely on
> this WR corp to consistently win games.

This is why I don't want to trade Thigpen. He has a big arm as well.

Doctor Feelgood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Hartline is faster than people are giving
> him credit for.

Hartline is the fastest WR on the team, of the people that are likely to get significant playing time.

Hartline: 4.52/40 (6'2"/195)
Marshall: 4.57/40 (6'4"/240)
Camarillo: 4.60/40 (6'1"/190)
Turner: 4.65/40 (6'5"/223)
Bess: 4.71/40 (5'10"/190)

Then there is:

Julius Pruitt: 4.42/40 (6'2"/210)
Roberto Wallace: 4.49/40 (6'4"/225)
Taurus Johnson: 4.49/40 (6'1"/205)
Marlon Moore: 4.49/40 (6'0"/190)
Ryan Grice-Mullen: 4.53/40 (5'11"/180)

Since we passed on guys in the draft...I hope some of these kids stick...and can play well.

Ken Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Doctor Feelgood Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think Hartline is faster than people are
> giving
> > him credit for.
>
> Hartline is the fastest WR on the team, of the
> people that are likely to get significant playing
> time.
>
> Hartline: 4.52/40 (6'2"/195)
> Marshall: 4.57/40 (6'4"/240)
> Camarillo: 4.60/40 (6'1"/190)
> Turner: 4.65/40 (6'5"/223)
> Bess: 4.71/40 (5'10"/190)

And what do nearly all these guys have in common? SIZE. These aren't the days of Duper/Clayton. San Fran did pretty well with Rice/Taylor (big guys that weren't burners). The great WRs like Rice and Marshall have proven you don't need world-class speed to succeed.

BTW: Bess is our smallest and slowest WR left from last year. As much as you guys love him, I think he's truly on the bubble.

ghotirule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BTW: Bess is our smallest and slowest WR left from
> last year. As much as you guys love him, I think
> he's truly on the bubble.
>
> No way. Bess has been our most productive
> receiver. He gets open, catches the ball, and has
> decent YAC. He'll be starting.

What? You've been away too long, dude. Bess is a slot guy at best. Camarillo was more productive 2 years ago. Last year Bess dropped a bunch of balls. Hartline is taller, faster, and had better hands than Bess last year. He's our starter opposite Marshall. Bess, if he makes the team, will be the slot guy and possible punt returner, like last year.

Bess is NOT on the bubble! No way, no how, no chance! Bess's roster spot is safe!

With that said Bess is also NOT a starter! No chance of that happening.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/2010 02:21AM by MikeO.

ghotirule Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What? You've been away too long, dude. Bess is a
> slot guy at best.
>
> Last year Bess was our top WR with very
> respectable stats. What did I miss???

I agree, he caught 70 some passes and everyone keeps saying how bad he sucks. Wish I sucked that bad

Bess had key drops in key situations early in the year.

Not knocking him, and being the best WR on Miami in the 2009 season isn't saying much.

But he is a slot WR now. Nothing more, nothing less.

The way I see it:

- with the Ginn experiment over
- a clear #1 WR in Marshall
- Hartline having the experience of starting during his a rookie year
- Camarillo possibly back to full health

I think Bess is going to have some stiff competition to make the team. Add to that the possibility that the light turns on for Turner, as well as the other free agents we've brought in, and Bess may not even make the cut. Nearly all the other WRs he has to compete with are bigger AND faster and have decent hands. With Ginn gone, having good hands won't be enough anymore. If Camarillo is fully healthy, I think he'll be better in the slot (faster, bigger, just as reliable). I think Hartline will be a lock at #2 (he's our fastest WR), and, barring injury, Marshall is the defacto #1. Bess is also not that great in punt returns (as noted by a couple drops he had last year and no real stellar returns). So, that's my logic. It's not a knock on Bess specifically. I'm just pointing out the competition is much more stiff this year than the last 2.