I think this move could possibly mean we take DEZ and heres why: Our receivers are OK at best (with the exception of THE BEAST) so I wouldnt be surprised at all if we take DEZ (assuming denver doesnt pick him up) because with a pro bowl all star like Marshall to guide a young and reportedly troubled receiver, we could be literally unstoppable in the air and then ronnie and ricky could wreak havoc on the ground with defenses on their heels.They probably realized there wasnt much Teddy could take from Marshall and bringing a rookie with the right skill set could be a better fir for a number 2 receiver. Personally I wouldnt mind this pick but I still think we should take someone on Defense cuz we have many voids but who knows what BP has up his sleeve, lets just hope it works out.

No one can argue Ginn has speed. But I think some are hoping for a dream that I don't see coming true. All the speed in the world mean nothing if the guy can't catch. I think this was a good move. It's a clear message that you don't perform and your gone.

Bess is a decent WR and is GC but neither are legit threats. Hartline has promise and did good in his rookie year but anyone who is objective can't annoint him just yet.

As for Turner......Turner who. The guy has been a ghost and until proven otherwise he was a wasted pick.

Draft Dez, cut Camarillo.

1. Marshall
2. Dez
3. Hartline
4. Bess

As long as Dez isn't a flop and is half as good as advertised, we would have one of the top WR corps in the NFL for many years to come!

Sign Ken Hamlin to a 1 year deal to share the FS role with Culver/Clemons. Re-sign JT to play OLB. Then in Rd 3 draft a NT!

That is the road-map if you draft Dez at 12

speed is meaningless when you try to catch the ball with a fist.

TURNING THE PAGE......

Adding Marshall was a huge stretch for Parcels. He will not be drafting a WR in the first round after already investing two 2nd round picks. No way, no how.

and Ken Hamlin sucks in coverage more than Gibril Wilson.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ken Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It is a huge deal because unless we draft D.
> > Thomas at #12 or find a way to move up into the
> > bottom of the first to draft D.Thomas there is
> no
> > WR in this draft that has the speed to fill
> Ginn's
> > void and also fit the Parcells prototype.
> >
> > The only other option is Spiller and he's too
> > small to be an every down running back on a
> power
> > oriented team. Besides, he does nothing for the
> WR
> > group which is SLOW, SLOW, SLOW, once you get
> past
> > Marshall and Hartline.
> >
> > As was stated ealier, this move was
> short-sighted.
>
>
> Ginn doesn't even fill the Parcells prototype...so
> how does that matter?

RE: It matters because we traded him...now we have replace his speed and ability...that player will have to fit the parcells mold as well as be fast.
>
> There isn't a WR in this draft that fits the
> parcells prototype AND can replace Ginn's speed
> and special teams ability, so that standard for
> judging the trade is ridiculous.

RE: D.Thomas can...4.4 is not quite as fast but it is faster than the great majority of DB's and WR's in the league. Thats enough to fill the deep route void and he has the size to fit the prototype.

>
> There are, however, a couple of guys with 4.39 (or
> better speed) that can be had in the mid to late
> rounds (3-6) to replace him as a KR and a 5th or
> 6th wr. Guys like Jacoby Ford, Carlton Mitchell,
> Taylor Price, Brandon Banks, or Trindon Holliday.

And none of them have size...we don't need a 5th or 6th WR...we need a #2. Hartline at best is a #3. No one else on the roster is big enough or fast enough to fill the position. I was willing to better utilize Ginns speed and let his size slide with a better supporting cast around him. But now that he's gone we have to get a replacement that is the whole package.

Look, Ginn was not ever going to fit with the direction this team is going. He couldn't pick up the schemes, and his route running was sub-par. He is not the worst thing to ever happen to the Dolphins, but he surely wasn't a #1 receiver. He wasn't a #1 at OSU either, so what made anyone think he could be in the NFL is beyond me. The vast majority of Dolphins fans did not like the guy, and not even 2 returns for TDs against the stinkin' Jets could save his reputation with the fan base. I'm sure the front office shopped him to every team in the NFL, and a 5th rounder was the best they could get. That is the same value as Santonio Holmes, a Super Bowl MVP. The other two options the team had was to keep him as a return guy, and at his salary, that would be prohibitively expensive and he would remain unpopular with the fans, or cut him and get nothing for him at all.

Face it, this was the best choice they could make, and obviously no other NFL team wanted to pay any more than a 5th rounder for him.

Look at B. Banks 5'7" runs a 4.25 punt returner and kick returner for a 6th round pick

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Adding Marshall was a huge stretch for Parcels. He
> will not be drafting a WR in the first round after
> already investing two 2nd round picks. No way, no
> how.
>
> and Ken Hamlin sucks in coverage more than Gibril
> Wilson.


Hamlin graded out higher than Ryan Clark and everyone was drinking Clark's bathwater. Hamlin grades out higher than Clark. For a 1 year deal, Hamlin is fine. He would be splitting time with Culver and Clemons anyway.

Ok...I've asked you this before....Where does Hamlin grade out higher than Clark? what info are you using for this assessment?

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok...I've asked you this before....Where does
> Hamlin grade out higher than Clark? what info are
> you using for this assessment?

The MIKO-METER You silly silly man.

Thank you Parcells and co. Finally got rid of mr. butterfingers, now we can get some drives going.


Addition by Subtraction!!

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok...I've asked you this before....Where does
> Hamlin grade out higher than Clark? what info are
> you using for this assessment?


It wasn't pro football focus but the other rankings site/ledger. I can't remember the name off the top of my head. It's not the point that he ranks higher, well its that a a little. It's the fact that both are in the ballpark of who they are as players. And its not like Hamlin would require that much money. And it would be a 1 year deal under the scenerio I mentioned below

Ginn, even dropped his luggage a few times on the way to the airport....LOL

SouthFlPhinFan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ginn, even dropped his luggage a few times on the
> way to the airport....LOL

True, but he made through security in blindingly-fast time..just without his carry-on

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All you guys who wanted to keep Ginn need to look
> at this history of the 49ers.
>
> Ginn = Renaldo Nehemiah
> Marshall = Jerry Rice
> Hartline = Fred Taylor
>
> Did the 49ers miss Nehemiah? NO! Did he make any
> significant impact on that team? NO! Did Rice
> and Taylor? YES!! The post-Nehemiah 49ers team
> was BETTER than the team that had Nehemiah.


RESPONSE: In my business, we call those statements "conclusory," a legal word for drawing conclusions without evidence.

Nothing about Marshall has yet proven that he is the equal of perhaps the greatest receiver in pro football history.

Moreover, the only hard fast conclusion that can be drawn on Ginn is that he is one of the fastest receivers in the history of the game. True, he has problems catching the ball but he should have been given more time.

If the situation had been different and had it been a straight up trade one for the other, I would not be opposed but letting Ginn go for a 5th round pick (yeah, you can always point to miracle late round picks) might go down as one of the greatest sucker trades in NFL history if Ginn gets the confidence to go with that speed.

And I remember screaming that we should not have let Wes Welker go either. I could see he was one of the best possession receivers the game had ever seen. Yet, there were yahoos on this board saying good riddance to him too.

ChyrenB I too did not want to get rid of Welker because although he dosen't blow anyone away with size or speed. He was a tough receiver, and not afraid to go over the middle. Gnn on the other had had speed to burn and quickness, but played as if he was scared to to death. There are many players who are never given the chance that Ginn was given, and at every oppurtunity Ginn would play scared. Running out of bounds is a bush leauge move. No one respects someone not ready to give his all. Ginn will be gone in SF in two years. Singletary comes across as a Parcells type disciplinarian who won't put of with Ginn running out of bounds. I think Ginn is on a short leash with the 49ers.

Finshady Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB I too did not want to get rid of Welker
> because although he dosen't blow anyone away with
> size or speed. He was a tough receiver, and not
> afraid to go over the middle. Gnn on the other
> had had speed to burn and quickness, but played as
> if he was scared to to death. There are many
> players who are never given the chance that Ginn
> was given, and at every oppurtunity Ginn would
> play scared. Running out of bounds is a bush
> leauge move. No one respects someone not ready to
> give his all. Ginn will be gone in SF in two
> years. Singletary comes across as a Parcells type
> disciplinarian who won't put of with Ginn running
> out of bounds. I think Ginn is on a short leash
> with the 49ers.

RESPONSE: As to the future in SF, time will tell. However, what you see as fear I think is lack of confidence. I have seen it for 50 years watching players, particularly receivers. If you notice Ginn, he is not missing the ball like most receivers who do not catch it do. He literally catches the ball and virtually drops it after the catch. This is not knowing how to catch it is mental.

I've seen it a million times. Some guys have to get their confidence at each new level of play. From Junior High to High School, from high school to college, from college to the pros. They excel at every level but have to convince themselves that they belong here.

Usually it takes an event like being traded to the 49ers to make him realize its sink or swim. Watch, Finshady, and we can come back to it. The mental process is that now that Ginn has been traded, the expectations are low. He'll say, I've got nothing to lose now. He'll be more relaxed and when he starts succeeding, he will then get the confidence and will have made his final conversion from College to the Pros. Unfortunately for us, we will not be the beneficiary.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RESPONSE: Wait, now you are being illogical.
> Just because I dispute that there is sufficient
> evidence that Brandon Marshall will be Jerry Rice
> does not mean that I am saying that Ginn will be.
> On the other hand, if you mean only that what
> gives me the idea that Ginn will be a decent
> (decent only) wide receiver, I'd say that
> touchdown that he caught blowing away the defender
> with his tremendous speed. As I said before, if
> he can get over his confidence thing in dropping
> the ball, his speed will make him very much more
> than a decent receiver.
My comparison was simply based on size, speed, and ability. Marshall has all the physical tools of Rice. You can't deny that.

>
> RESPONSE: Given that magnificient speed, I think
> you give him more than the time he's had.
>
> As I said before, if his hands were so bad he
> would not have made it this far as a receiver,
> he'd have been converted to d-back. It's a
> confidence thing. He just has to get it.

Plenty of other pro guys NEVER get it. What's so different about Ginn? Is it because you really want to see a guy that fast who can catch? It's not up to you. It's up to him.

As with most college offenses, Ginn didn't have to catch the ball in traffic very often. He was able to use his speed in the open field. In the NFL the only opportunity he will get to do that is as a kick returner, but he's making WAY too much money to be only a kick returner.

As for d-back, it was never called for in college. His talent fit the offense. In pros it would be ridiculous to convert him NOW.


> RESPONSE: Fine, but don't you think that not
> giving it one more year balanced against a FIFTH
> ROUND pick is a bad
> deal??????????????????????????????

It's about the money. Teams often dump guys who are aren't earning their salary. I'm HAPPY we got a 5th!! Consider how demoralizing it is to the other WRs to have the #4 guy making more money than the #1, #2, or #3!!

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Correction: This is not not knowing how to catch,
> it is mental.

Correct, it's mental. That's NOT fixable!

IMHO Ginn was too small (178 lbs) to be the hard nosed, put your shoulder down and fight for extra yards player. If a player does not fit the prototype a coach has in mind for the position but has talent and is on the roster. That coach MUST be creative enough to figure out how to utilize that talent in whatever scheme is being used.

The coaches have the responsibility to utilize each and every player to THEIR ability not the other way around. I don't care if the coaches didn't like him, or pick him, or whatever....makes no difference. They still have the responsibility to properly use each player on the roster....they should be faulted for not doing that. Not just with Ginn though, there have been others.

The coaches should also be faulted for not properly developing Ginn's (as well as others) individual talents and skills....it's their job to make him better than he, or even they, think he can be.

You can't as an employer (Coach), simply demand things and wait for your employee's (Players) to figure it out on their own.

I don't want to see the 49ers beat the Phins. However, in the next meeting I'd love to see Ginn catch a TD over the top on our defense. Then trot over and personally hand the TD ball to Sparano on the sidelines.

"The coaches should also be faulted for not properly developing Ginn's (as well as others) individual talents and skills....it's their job to make him better than he, or even they, think he can be."

I have a problem with this type of talk, the kids been playing football his whole life and it's what he gets paid a boat-load of money to do well, isnt it his responsibilty to hone his craft. You always hear about recievers from different teams that get together and work out in the off-season to help each other out (Chris Carter comes to mind that I remember used to do that). I agree coaches need to put them in the right situations, but i'm not real sure how much "teaching" a 1st rnd pick should need on how to catch a damn ball. On another note, does anyone ever think Cameron might of screwed Ginn twice with no lube, 1st he puts all kinds of pressure on him by drafting too high, then he trades away his veteran presence in Chambers, someone who could of mentored him and helped pull away the double teams, although I liked it at the time, that move alone could of impeded this kids growth.

Ginn was never a physical player, and that was the previous regime's mistake. Watch his OSU highlights, it's all him running around by himself. He never had to fight for the tough catches, or beat the jam because college corners were too scared of his speed. And I think it was Mel Kiper that pointed out when he was drafted, that he had only been targeted in the redzone a handful of times in his college career. That should have been a red flag right there, you must be physical to be a factor in the red zone. It's not Ginn's fault. He is who he is. But, we fell in love with his speed and his return ability, and drafted him way over where he belonged. I think he'll fluorish as a deep threat as a #3 option for a team. And by that, I mean he'll become a guy who can get about 700 yards and 6-7 TD a year. It was never going to happen for him here, because he doesn't fit the mold of player we want.

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The coaches should also be faulted for not
> properly developing Ginn's (as well as others)
> individual talents and skills....it's their job to
> make him better than he, or even they, think he
> can be."
>
> I have a problem with this type of talk, the kids
> been playing football his whole life and it's what
> he gets paid a boat-load of money to do well, isnt
> it his responsibilty to hone his craft.

RE: Yes it is, but we have no idea what help he actually got from previous coaches and can only guess at the help he got with the Phins because they are not talking about it. Many, many players come out of college with holes in their games indicating that coaches at that level fail to develop most players. Most take time to live up to their potential...

You always
> hear about recievers from different teams that get
> together and work out in the off-season to help
> each other out (Chris Carter comes to mind that I
> remember used to do that).

RE: The reason you don't see this much more often IMHO is that NFL coaches really don't care because they think they are only there to win games whatever the cost and that players themselves are by and large a selfish breed.

I agree coaches need to
> put them in the right situations, but i'm not real
> sure how much "teaching" a 1st rnd pick should
> need on how to catch a damn ball.

RE: There are many reasons why a player might fail to make a catch. Ginn has not had much time with any single quarterback...and add to that scheme changes and coaching changes to repeated blows to his confidence and fan derision. All add up to sub par play without the proper mindset and development. It's not as easy as catching a damn ball.

On another note,
> does anyone ever think Cameron might of screwed
> Ginn twice with no lube, 1st he puts all kinds of
> pressure on him by drafting too high, then he
> trades away his veteran presence in Chambers,
> someone who could of mentored him and helped pull
> away the double teams, although I liked it at the
> time, that move alone could of impeded this kids
> growth.

Agreed...Ginn IMHO was, and should have been a low second round pick. Under that scenario he is likely still here.