Are our young recievers really that bad? I think because they're all young at the same time without a proven veteran it makes this need look more glaring. Here's some stats that might surprise you.
Ted Ginn's 3 yr stats; 128 rec. for 1664 yrds, 5 rec, 2 rushing & 2 KO rets for a total of 9 tds
Vincent Jacksons 3 yr stats; 71 rec for 1135 yrds with 9 total TDs
Miles Austin 3 yr stats; 18 rec for 354 yrds with 3 total TDs
(Austin and P Turner had the exact same 1st year stats; Goose eggs)
Brian Hartline's 1st yr; 31 rec for 506 yrds & 3 tds with a 16.3 avg and a long of 67 yrds. Those 1st yr stats beat Miles Austin, Vincent Jackson, Sidney Rice and Brandon Marshall's 1st yr stats just to name a few. I'm not trying to say that we have a group of all-pros, all i'm saying is have some patience with these guys. There is still hope for Turner as evidenced by Austin, there's still hope for Ginn as evidenced by V. Jackson and M Austin. I didn't even touch on D. Bess who has pretty impressive stats for only being in his 2nd year. I think adding an aging high-priced Vet would of only stunted their growth. Keep in mind I would of loved to add a stud WR but i'm also not gonna panic, i'll be patient and hope these guys keep devolping like they should and history has shown they could.
After I wrote this I saw the similar story in the News Wire.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2010 12:00PM by dolphaholic.

Vincent Jackson needed time to adjust to the NFL because of his college background. He didn't get to play at a high profile Division 1 program like Ginn. He's also 6 inches taller than Ginn and outweighs him by over 50 pounds. And in spite of the huge size advantage, Jackson also runs a 4.45 40, so has above average speed. When you compare their stats through their first 3 seasons, you have to remember that Ginn has been on the field for a ton more plays than Jackson in that same time period. And in spite of being on the field for a ton more snaps, Ginn has just 5 receiving TD in 3 years, compared to 9 for Jackson. Ginn is not suddenly going to morph into Jackson. Ginn has proven that he is not capable of making catches when the play is contested. He is not physical enough to do this.

Miles Austin played at Monmouth. Like Jackson, he needed time to be able to play at this level. He ran a 4.29 40 at his pro day. He's 4 inches taller than Ginn and outweighs him by over 30 lbs. Like Jackson, Austin has a combination of physical tools that Ginn cannot match.

Patrick Turner is 6'5, 227. He didn't run at the combine because on the slow track, he was expected to be timed at 4.7 or worse. At his pro day, he ran a 4.63. He played in a pro style offense at USC, where he was considered a major disappointment. He was a major reach in round 3. Mel Kiper said he shouldn't have been drafted at all. Turner still has time to be a tough physical weapon for us. But, he will never develop into a Jackson or Austin type because he simply is way too slow.

Bess and Camarillo struggle to get separation. They are tough players, and Camarillo has the best hands on the team. But, they are never going to be big play guys because they simply don't get separation. This is not a skill they are going to develop. They don't have the physical tools to do it. I'm in the minority, but I think a healthy Camarillo has more upside than Bess does. Bess looks like he is running in quicksand.

Hartline has potential. He does manage to get separation, even on some deep balls, and he is willing to go over the middle. But, he's also limited by his lack of speed. We saw this last year when he would get caught from behind when he got behind the defense. He may turn into a solid starter. May. He can definitely be a good #3, but with his limitations, he may not be a quality starter.

The only group of WR that I would say is definitely worse than ours is the group in St. Louis. And even then, Avery, Gibson, and Burton probably have more upside than our group.

Our guys put up decent stats because they are out there playing. But, that doesn't make them good. It means they're all we have. It's like that guy who's in a baseball lineup every day and hits .270 with 15 HR and 80 RBI. He puts up those numbers because he's out there every day. But, if they had a better player, he'd be on the bench. Our guys put up ok numbers, but there are a lot of teams where our guys would have a hard time making the team. And a ton of teams where none of them would be among the top 3 guys in the rotation.

Chad Henne needs weapons to be successful. We cannot continue to count on 15 play, 80 yard drives. At some point, we need a couple of receivers who can make big plays. I still believe we need at least two new guys in the mix.

dolphan mark, you nailed it. our young guys played a lot more than those folks in the early years and physically those other guys blow our guys away. there's really no basis for expecting ginn, bess, etc will ever put up numbers like vj and austin. ginn has the speed but can't catch and is scared of getting hit so doesn't fight for the ball or yards. the rest are too slow. I do think Hartline will end up being a solid player, but not a #1.

^ yeah camarillo over bess . sorry i disagree tremendously . glad your not our gm .

ifShulaWasPrez Wrote:
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> ^ yeah camarillo over bess . sorry i disagree
> tremendously . glad your not our gm .


I have to agree. Bess is a better player than Camarillo.

Camarillo since his injury has been lackluster in every way.

MikeO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ifShulaWasPrez Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ^ yeah camarillo over bess . sorry i disagree
> > tremendously . glad your not our gm .
>
>
> I have to agree. Bess is a better player than
> Camarillo.
>
> Camarillo since his injury has been lackluster in
> every way.


And Bess is lackluster in every way, as well. You have to remember that Greg Camarillo is a starting flanker. Bess comes off the bench as the slot guy. Why is that? Camarillo had 112 more offensive snaps than Bess in 2009. In 2008, he had 134 more snaps than Bess, and he missed games that year. Why is that? Maybe the coaching staff wants the best players on the field more? So, Camarillo gets more snaps. And then you have to remember that Bess is working in the slot. The average pass completion to Bess is ovly 5 yards downfield. Often times, he is matched up with a LB, or is merely running a crossing route against 2 LB in zone coverage. Sometimes he gets matched up with a S, and sometimes he gets matched up with a nickel back. As the flanker, Camarillo does not get that luxury.

2009
Bess- thrown at 113 times, 76 catches, 67.2 % completion rate, 2 TD, 3 fumbles, 9.9 yds/catch, avg pass to him was completed 5.7 yards from the line of scrimmage, 7 drops
on passes thrown more than 10 yards downfield, Bess had 17 catches on 31 attempts
on 3rd down, Bess was thrown to 51 times, catching 35 of them, converting 28 first downs

Camarillo, thrown at 71 times, 50 catches, 70.4%, 0 TD, 0 fumbles, 11.0 yds/catch, avg pass to him was completed 8.7 yards downfield, 0 drops,
on passes thrown more than 10 yards downfield, Camarillo had 17 catches on 30 attempts
on 3rd down, Camarillo was thrown to 19 times, catching 16 of them, converting 15 first downs

"And Bess is lackluster in every way, as well."dfanmark

I seem to remember a bunch of 1st down catches....

I don't think any of our WR's are in a position to show their full potential.

We lack a #1 WR. That changes the dymnamic for everybody on the field.

-Ginn is the closest thing we have in terms of speed demanding over/under double coverage. He runs poor routes and has questionable hands so he is easily accounted for...meaning teams can slide the 'over' coverage to the inside and have the 'Under' guy stay with him deeper than you normally would.

Camarillo and Bess both are shifty and have good hands but they lack the speed and size to be #1 guys, they aren't pushing the deep defender back.

So now you have a short middle, which means fewer attempts in the 10-15 yard range and a lot more 4-8 yd passes.

Hartline is a rookie who has demonstrated the ability to find a seam and beat the coverage and get deeper...but it is a seam between defenders ( meaning it closes and they tackle him) and not getting behind the coverage for 6 points.

Hartline will improve. But he also lacks speed.

If we acquire 1 guy with speed. Not an elite guy...just a reliable 'decent' fast guy...and we put him opposite Ginn and have Bess & Hartline on the field you will see way more opportunities, mismatches, broken coverages.

And we will see Ginn improve, Hartline become amazing, and the other guys converting 1st downs, and getting YAC.

USF's CARLTON MITCHELL is a decent mid round prospect

The thing that sucks about my whole argument is, that we used high picks to get Ginn and Turner, and like dolphanmark pointed out all those other guys had reasons for slow developement, but at this point it doesn't matter how anyone got in the NFL, it's a question of can you develop once you get there. My examples just show that it's still possible for the guys we currently have to do that. It's sucks that we used the #9 pick on Ginn and it's taken him so long to breakout, but it's not impossible, same with Turner.

remember . we didnt just draft ted ginn jr . we drafted the whole ginn family ... major lolz . thanx cam .

DaytonaDolfan13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "And Bess is lackluster in every way, as
> well."dfanmark
>
> I seem to remember a bunch of 1st down catches....


When a WR averages less than 10 yards per catch, he's lackluster.

My response to catching would be twofold...

You do as much as possible to simulate the game conditions.


1) I had a couple WR's who were awesome in practice and then stunk it up in games dropping easy catches because they heard footsteps.

So...I had a guy with a blocking pad setup in front of the target area and had the WR run a route crossing near him and had the QB throw the ball so that the WR made contact with the ball right beside/in front/behind the guy...and had the guy try and knock him on his butt with the pad once he made contact. Then I added a 2nd guy and varied the routes so sometimes the WR is splitting them, sometimes he has to catch ball and stop and turn while the 2 try and blow him up and prevent the catch. It worked. they learned to focus on the ball, and take the hit. And one of them even learned to use the defenders momentum to change direction.

Ginn needs to catch so many balls that it is instinct.


2) He also struggles to react quickly when the ball is in traffic. I would have him do spin drills. The WR has his back turned to 3 QB's...he doesn't know which guy is throwing...the coach yells 'GO' once the ball is thrown and the WR has to spin around and locate the ball and catch it. This can be extended by having the all 3 QB's throw in sequence with a '1 thousand' delay between them. The coach watches his eyes to make sure he looks each ball in prior to locating the next ball.



As far as route running? I don't know. I have never been successful at teaching a guy to run better routes. Usually you teach fast guys and good route runners how to catch...or big tall guys how to go up for a jump ball. At the high school and some college divisions 'SPEED' is an excellent route. A fast guy gets open all the time even if he is a bad route runner.

If you look at his college film, they would use clearing routes to open an area for him to catch a short slant with room in front of him...and he would be off to the races. And when they took that away by sitting a safety he took off down the sideline and beat the coverage with speed.

OH!! OH!!! This is it!!

I would experiment with making him run routes with some sort of weighting on his legs. Light ankle weights, combined with some extra weights on his padding. Something light enough that he wouldn't injure or pull something, but enough to slow him down. Take his speed away and force him to learn how to get open like that. And THEN give him his speed back and see what he can do!!!!


Any one know someone on the coaching staff?

realist Wrote:
------------------------------------------------->
>>>> Any one know someone on the coaching staff?

I actually know a couple people on the staff. George DeLeone our Tight Ends Coach. Coached up here at Syracuse for many years. Great guy with a great family. His beautiful wife died just last year, she was a very nice lady. Also Steve Bush our quality control coach was a coach up here in this area at West Gennesse high school for many years. Teams were always in battles for state championships. Another super nice guy and always easy to talk with. And also Dave Corraro our defensive quality control coach who worked with DeLone and Pasqualoni at Syracuse. He is another Syracuse guy who has a few family members up here in the area I am tight with. Super guy I have talked with a lot and he is a great person as is his wife Trisha.

The cut & paste my suggestions and forward them along.

I know that some of these techniques have been done...but I think at the NFL level they spend their time doing X's and O's and learning technique....

But this type of intensive targeting of weaknesses WORKS!

ha ha......will do. I actually will be at a party with Corraro in 2 months or so and I will be speaking to him soon. I will print your message and give it to him (well maybe not)... And I know I will be seeing Bush soon as well. I have a 2 events with him each year in the spring time. He is a Super guy.

That would be hilarious, pulling a crumpled up piece of paper out of your pocket "Um Mr. Corraro, me and my buddy Realist were talking on an internet chat board about Ginn and this is what we came up with". Be pretty funny the look you would get

And I got no clue how anyone could be down on Bess, he may not be too flashy but the man caught alot of balls and moved the chains for a 2nd yr. rec.

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That would be hilarious, pulling a crumpled up
> piece of paper out of your pocket "Um Mr. Corraro,
> me and my buddy Realist were talking on an
> internet chat board about Ginn and this is what we
> came up with". Be pretty funny the look you would
> get


Yeah I would get alook alright!! ha ha.

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And I got no clue how anyone could be down on
> Bess, he may not be too flashy but the man caught
> alot of balls and moved the chains for a 2nd yr.
> rec.


We threw to him 51 times on third down, and he converted 28 of them. That's not exactly a great percentage. The reason he doesn't convert more of them is that he is too slow to get any separation from coverage. I like Bess as a player. If he was our 4th best WR, I'd be happy. But, I think we need at least 2 new players in the mix at WR, two guys with high upsides. And if I had to choose between Bess and Camarillo for one guy to keep going forward, I would take Camarillo. He's bigger, faster, and has better hands. And if he played in that slot role, he'd be more productive than Bess, IMO.

Good comments realist / drills sound like they could help.

Keep in mind that Ginn is also said to have some learning issues, if so more drills, more time may be needed to integrate them for him to have them be instinctive.

I like the first exercise for catching balls in traffic, and feel that may be one of his key issues to overcome.

Not bad re the weights too.

He averaged 10yrds a catch and caught 76 passes......by my math that's alot of 1st. downs. Again not our #1 but not a slouch either. On another note I think Hartline can be our #1, if not this year then next. A touch slow but just as fast as some of the all time greats.

Phinjim Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good comments realist / drills sound like they
> could help.
>
> Keep in mind that Ginn is also said to have some
> learning issues, if so more drills, more time may
> be needed to integrate them for him to have them
> be instinctive.
>
> I like the first exercise for catching balls in
> traffic, and feel that may be one of his key
> issues to overcome.
>
> Not bad re the weights too.

These are good drills. But I find it hard to believe that pro coaches would not be teaching every freaking drill possible to get Ginn to improve. These coaches didn't start out coaching seasoned pros. They came up through the ranks. I just have to believe they know how to teach.