I know this isnt Dolphin talk. But it is *HUGE* news in the sports world. He has been suspended for 50 games. What will this do for his "legacy"?

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"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

They said it was a performance enhancing drug, but not steroids.

close enough.

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"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

You're probably right, but a MLB player can purchase a banned substance (performance enhancing drug) legally at GNC. I would bet that a lot of players aren't even aware of what is in some of the supplements they buy over the counter.

It's PR, and Ramirez is the scapegoat. Players have been doing this for years, but Ramirez was in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'd prefer professional sports was 100% clean, but when you're livelihood depends on your performance, it's unlikely this problem will go away.

Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Northeast Fin Fan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > You're probably right, but a MLB player can
> > purchase a banned substance (performance
> enhancing
> > drug) legally at GNC. I would bet that a lot
> of
> > players aren't even aware of what is in some of
> > the supplements they buy over the counter.
>
> I'd take that bet.
>
> You could make that argument a few years ago, but
> enough people have been suspended that every
> player now knows to get his supplements through or
> approved by the team medical staff.
>
> In Manny's case his agent says it was a drug
> prescribed by his doctor. That means its not an
> over the counter supplement and is likely HGH,
> which is just as bad (from a cheating perspective)
> as steroids.
>
> After A-rod got nabbed, is anyone really surprised
> that Manny wasn't playing it straight?
>
> Next up...David Ortiz and Albert Pujols...


I hadn't heard the whole story, so maybe it was HGH. Even so, you honestly think that all players get their supplements through the team?

I think Ortiz is clean. When ARod got outed, Ortiz said that it is not fair for ARod to be singled out when over 100 players tested positive. He also said that all MLB players are under a cloud of suspicion until the list is made public, so he asked for the entire list to be made public. He would have to be pretty dumb to make that request if he was guilty himself.

Hopefully the same thing it does to McGwire (formerly one of my favorite players) and Bonds and Canseco. I used to live for baseball in my youth, memorizing stats and watching/playing as much as I could. When the players and owners let the World Series go without being played in 1994, they lost me. Then, they sold their soul to regain popularity by juicing the balls and pumping the hitters up with steroids. Freakin' lead-off hitters were getting 40-50 homers. The whole sport is a disgraceful remnant of its former self.

And, the whole GNC argument doesn't fly with me. Teams invest so many millions in player salaries, there should be no way that players are putting together their own cocktail of GNC supplements. If it's that easy to mess up on the legal stuff, teams should do the right thing in getting players the right stuff and contracts should be written (may be already - i don't care enough to figure this out) so that players won't screw up at GNC.

Where did you get the 99% number?

I have followed the Red Sox for years. Manny was a great player here, but numb as a pounded thumb. He can't be the only one that numb.

I agree that's not concrete proof. In fact, it is no proof whatsoever.

Ortiz was a power hitter for Minnesota. He had a high number of HRs per at-bat; but they never gave him enough at-bats to put up big numbers. In Boston, he got the at-bats and was never pitched around because he had Manny hitting behind him.

Ortiz's career looks like what careers used to look like before steroids. He hit his prime at 27 and is dropping off in his mid 30s. Ortiz is also a huge man. No one expected him to maintain his bat speed into his late 30s.

You're actually proving Ortiz's point that all players are under a cloud of suspicion until the whole list is made public.

Fenway can be hard on lefties; but Ortiz has hit a ton of HRs near the Pesky Pole which, at 302 feet, is a very short HR.

Your stats are based on 2 guesses:
the number of violators
the assumption that the number of players getting caught is equal to the number of players breaking the rules

Also, rosters are something like 24 or 25 players, not 40.

Manny are Ortiz are not pals. They tolerated each other because the team was winning. Also, Manny failed a test recently. There is nothing saying that he is on the list of 100+ players that got caught when ARod did.

Phinsfan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Northeast Fin Fan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Fenway can be hard on lefties; but Ortiz has hit
> a
> > ton of HRs near the Pesky Pole which, at 302
> feet,
> > is a very short HR.
>
>
> Define "ton"...
>
> Actually don't bother, you'd have had a better
> argument if you'd have said he hit a ton of balls
> over the green monster.



How many Sox games have you seen since 2003? Any who has watched them knows that he is a pull hitter. Defenses have shifted on him for years. So you don't like the use of the word ton; fine, he has hit a lot of HRs near the Pesky Pole. I'm sure you can dig up the stats if you want to.

I actually don't think we are disagreeing all that much (except on the Ortiz matter).

However, I would estimate the number of cheaters who are getting away with it or who are unaware that they are cheating to be higher than you do.

So, what happens to Manny's legacy?

Does he make it into the Hall?

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"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

I totally disagreee. Do you want to do a statistical analysis for every MLB player and comopare their HRs from ages 21 to 27 versus 27 to 33. I guarantee that almost 100% will hit more HRs from 27 to 33. That is when players hit their prime and have been hitting their prime for 100 years.

As for injuries, he had a few injuries with the Twins, but he was a dominant player in the minors. Surely, you discovered that in all of your vast research. In the minors in 1998, Ortiz hit 7 HRs over 450 feet in a span of 24 games. He also hit 30 HRs in the minors in 1999. If you want to talk about the HRs he hit in the 6 years prior to coming to Boston you should factor in all of his minor league HRs too. Or does that not fit the point you are trying to prove?

Ortiz has always been a streak hitter. In his last, and best, season with the Twins (2002) he went 43 games without a HR. Then he went nuts in the 2nd half. The Twins never should have let him walk after that.

You want Ortiz to be guilty and that is obvious.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2009 10:34AM by Northeast Fin Fan.