I suppose they could not work out a trade for him. Im ok with this.

All the best to OV with his new team. And we wonder why the Dolphins continue to wander in the wilderness. SMDH

cshashaty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All the best to OV with his new team. And we
> wonder why the Dolphins continue to wander in the
> wilderness. SMDH


Exactly.

Wonder if OV's imminent departure increases the chances that Dion Jordan returns to the Dolphins? He's still under contract.

I think it was the best option. Teams cannot negotiate with him until March 7 as opposed to March 4 for the rest of FA's.

You give him the franchise tag at 15.7 mil and that's the floor for the average per year deal, starting next year. He is not worth 15.7 every year, IMO.

Think about what type of player he is....

Is he a top 5 player at his position as an edge rusher? Top 10? No, he is not. So why would you pay him like one? His top dollar was what they tagged him at...They offered him 12 mil per year and he turned it down.

It's not a good situation but like I said, they made the mistake last year by not extending him. Don't make another mistake by overspending.

The numbers say he is one of the Top 30 DEs in football. There are 32 teams.

He's young and ascending, and one of the few good fits they have for the 4-3 scheme. They cannot replace his productivity, which means they are worse off for losing him. Keeping your own good players before trying to sign someone else's is always a smart play. Overpay? Top DEs command a premium, so you overpay.

BTW, the $15.7M is a hold, which protects your rights. Nothing more. Once you tie him up, you gain leverage with the agent to do a longer term deal that makes sense for everyone. If OV signs the tender, which he won't want to do, the Dolphins still lock him up with an option to still get the longer term deal done.

This is what smart teams do. The Dolphins are not a smart team, which is why they continue to wander.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2016 08:04AM by cshashaty.

Vernon is an above average DE and has part of a declining defense the past 4 years. Wake was 10x the DE until he got hurt. For a guy playing in his contract year and next to Suh he put up pretty average numbers.

We're a long ways from competing. Tying up a huge chunk of cap to retain an average player doesn't improve the team.

I bet if I looked in the archives the same was being said about Odrick.

cshashaty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The numbers say he is one of the Top 30 DEs in
> football. There are 32 teams.

Huh?

>
> He's young and ascending, and one of the few good
> fits they have for the 4-3 scheme. They cannot
> replace his productivity, which means they are
> worse off for losing him. Keeping your own good
> players before trying to sign someone else's is
> always a smart play. Overpay? Top DEs command a
> premium, so you overpay.

Yes, top DE's. He's not at the top. He's at the top of the middle. He's in his 4th year. How much better do you think he's going to get? It's not like he's Ziggy Ansah (who has more sacks in 3 years than OV does in 4). They may not replace his per snap production but at least now we can afford to infill production at other positions.

There were 26 players with more sacks in 2015. You can make the argument for pressures but....

>
> BTW, the $15.7M is a hold, which protects your
> rights. Nothing more. Once you tie him up, you
> gain leverage with the agent to do a longer term
> deal that makes sense for everyone.

Nothing more? Like I said, it's a starting point for negotiations. Look at the franchised players from last year.

Justin Houston was tagged at 13.1 mil. He signed an average deal of 16.8 mil

Dez Bryant tagged at 12.8, signed at 14

Demaryius Thomas at 12.8, signed at 14

So we tag him at 15.7 and then have to give him 16 or 17 per year? or rent him for one year? I don't think so. If his name was Von Miller, yes. 16 mil is JJ Watt money and too close to Suh money.

If OV signs
> the tender, which he won't want to do, the
> Dolphins still lock him up with an option to still
> get the longer term deal done.
>
> This is what smart teams do. The Dolphins are not
> a smart team, which is why they continue to
> wander.

Smart teams also know when to let overpriced players walk. Ravens, Patriots, Steelers, etc.

Not that I'm arguing we are a smart team! Besides, he's not gone yet. Alex Mack was transitioned and resigned.

For 16-17 mil per year we could have...

Sean Smith, Derrick Johnson AND Reggie Nelson. Give me those guys and draft a DE in the 2nd round.

jsm08 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tying up a huge
> chunk of cap to retain an average player doesn't
> improve the team.

If he was an average player they wouldn't be tagging him at all.

I think in the long run we will be better if Vernon walks. He has not proved to be an Alpha DE. Wake has always been our Alpha wolf at DE. So Vernon does not get to eat from that bowl. Ascending is good but he is not there yet so he should not get paid like he is.

The best we have gotten from our core players is 8-8. We need to start cutting bait and start upgrading. Stop trying to bang the square peg w/ these guys.

Williams just released from Buffalo. Sacks of 10.5, 13, 14.5 before some weird stuff last year as Ryan installed his system.

Not saying this is necessarily possible, but 31-year old Williams at +/- $6 mill vs. Vernon and his productivity and potential for more growth at $12 mill? I really believe 2016/17 we don't suffer at DE with that switch and are capable of putting additional talent around it.

tsstamper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is this in general because he's young and has room
> to continue to grow? Sack numbers (which don't
> tell the whole story) show him declining since a
> high 3 years ago.

Right, got to look at whole picture. Run D, pressure on QBs, sacks. And he's only 25 years old and plays a cornerstone position.

This would be a different discussion if he was a 10 year topped out vet.

Probably has a lot to do, then, with what they think his ceiling is. He's not top 5-10 now in my opinion. If his ceiling is top 15, he's worth $12 mill now to give us the option to match an offer.

Look at every other player that received the franchise tag this year and tell me the difference between them and OV.

Von Miller
Cordy Glenn
Josh Norman
Mo Wilkerson
A. Jeffrey

We will just have to work around it if he leaves.

DE: Mario Williams, JPP, Chris Long, Tamba Hali, Robert Ayers, Dwight Freeney

DT: Damon Harrison, Paul Soliai, Malik Jackson, Ian Williams, Jay Howard, Nick Fairley, Haloti Ngata, B.J. Raji, Terrance Knighton

tsstamper Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Williams just released from Buffalo. Sacks of
> 10.5, 13, 14.5 before some weird stuff last year
> as Ryan installed his system.
>
> Not saying this is necessarily possible, but
> 31-year old Williams at +/- $6 mill vs. Vernon and
> his productivity and potential for more growth at
> $12 mill? I really believe 2016/17 we don't
> suffer at DE with that switch and are capable of
> putting additional talent around it.

Exactly

I think Williams would come to Miami just so he could pay back Buffalo twice a year BUT I think he will be in the 8-10 mil range.

His career earnings are 112 million! WOW.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2016 09:58AM by JoeFootball.

All of these older, veteran DEs being mentioned are fits for a team that is close, which the Dolphins are not. Why waste a contract on them?

IMO Dolphins are better off passing on all of them and just promoting from within while adding talent thru the draft.

JoeFootball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Look at every other player that received the
> franchise tag this year and tell me the difference
> between them and OV.
>
> Von Miller
> Cordy Glenn
> Josh Norman
> Mo Wilkerson
> A. Jeffrey

All young, 26 years old or less (except Norman...28), and all ascending. Same profile as OV.

cshashaty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JoeFootball Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Look at every other player that received the
> > franchise tag this year and tell me the
> difference
> > between them and OV.
> >
> > Von Miller
> > Cordy Glenn
> > Josh Norman
> > Mo Wilkerson
> > A. Jeffrey
>
> All young, 26 years old or less (except
> Norman...28), and all ascending. Same profile as
> OV.

I asked what the difference is but....

Von Miller may be the #1 edge rusher in the league.
Many have argued that Josh Norman was the best CB in 2015.
Mo Wilkerson is a top 3-5 interior lineman.
Glenn is a top 5 LT.

They are all elite or game changers. I don't know of anyone in the business that ever referred to OV as a game changer. He is not on their level.

If you want to talk ascending, young, profiles, he is closer to Derrick Shelby than Von Miller.

Add CB Trumaine Johnson to your list. Another one being Franchised....same profile, same play by the current team. There's a pattern of thought here that doesn't seem to register in Tannenbaum's thick skull.

Hard to compare Miller to OV. They play different positions and are used differently. I doubt Miller could hold the edge at RDE vs the run the way OV does.

Again, OV is young and ascending at a cornerstone position and is a good fit for the 4-3 scheme Gase wants to stick with. OV's a piece of a championship team.

Why let him walk comp free over a lousy $3M?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2016 10:57AM by cshashaty.

OV is a piece of a championship team? That makes him a luxury a team down 6 starters on defense cannot afford.

You could have said the same thing about Charles Clay last year. The Bills overspent and are probably regretting the decision now that he under produced after making 13 mil as a TE.

It will be interesting to see what other teams offer for OV. There are a lot of teams with HUGE amounts of cap room that will be forced to use it. We are not in that situation. Rebuilding once again.

I used to think Dion Jordan was a goner. Now, with OV leaving, I'm not so sure. They really need him now.

Probably depends on how much of that 15.5 mil he has left. It sure would fix a huge problem....assuming he is better than he has ever been.

Considering what Clay put up in numbers for the Bills this year, I'm kinda glad we didn't sign him for the money he got from Buffalo.

How about this little nugget....

They are letting OV walk over 3 mil but we are paying Dion Jordan 6.2 mil this year. That's almost twice as much as OV has made in his ENTIRE CAREER! If we cut Dion Jordan, we save well over 3 mil and much more if they go after the pro rated signing bonus.