True... maybe they will actually start up the process instead of just talking about it.

Hey KB... there is a difference in the teams they went to. Browns had (maybe not still) no QB and a shattered team. Falcons were solid and needed a pocket passer- Ryan perfect fit.

How does the pocket passer do in the Dolphins pocket?
How does a shut-down corner do on a team needing one?

An OL needs an anchor... don't know if Pouncy is still that anchor.
The OL needs a stud pass blocker or a stud run blocker... or both.
The WR needs another target to take the focus off Landry. Maybe Stills is that guy but not seeing alot of it.
The D needs... well, everything.

GO HEAT!

dgfred Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> True... maybe they will actually start up the
> process instead of just talking about it.
>
> Hey KB... there is a difference in the teams they
> went to. Browns had (maybe not still) no QB and a
> shattered team. Falcons were solid and needed a
> pocket passer- Ryan perfect fit.

Easy to say in retrospect. THey were 30th in total defense in 2007. SOme keep asking "Can a QB help the defense?"...obviously he can. If they were us they would have traded up to get Jake Long and stuck with Joey Harrington because all he needed was some blocking...
>
> How does the pocket passer do in the Dolphins
> pocket?

We don't know, we don't have one.

> How does a shut-down corner do on a team needing
> one?

Well, last year everyone said Grimes was one, now he's the goat. Look a 'TOP' CB may get 5-6 balls a game thrown his way. I'd rather put my high draft picks and FA money into finding the 'TOP' guy who THROWS the ball 25-30 times, audibles, calls protections, etc. QB's > CB's in the NFL, how can anyone argue with that???

>
> An OL needs an anchor... don't know if Pouncy is
> still that anchor.
> The OL needs a stud pass blocker or a stud run
> blocker... or both.
> The WR needs another target to take the focus off
> Landry. Maybe Stills is that guy but not seeing
> alot of it.
> The D needs... well, everything.

That's all well and good but it doesn't mean you just take the best quarterback available at whatever pick you have in the first round. Especially if you have a high pick and you aren't sold on the available QB's. Need doesn't always match what's available.

If your simply saying we should have taken Matt Ryan over Jake Long, I'd say....DUH. Of course! That was a terrible move for a rebuilding organization. Hind sight also helps. Just bad personnel evaluation all around. Most of the guys in that draft aren't even in the league any more.

BUT....

I'm not taking Jake Locker at 8 (when he belongs at 40) because no other QB is ranked as high.

I'm also not making personnel decisions based on the multiple failed moves of former GM's.

KB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm advocating the positions where an individual
> player can make the most impact towards helping
> the team win.

I would argue that is the BPA, not a need pick.

A OLine functions as a unit, their
> individual talent has less impact then their
> cohesion as a unit.

Unless the best players you have are constantly trying to make up for lackluster play of the guy next to them or can't make their own assignment because they have to help the crap guard next to him. I'd also argue the entire offense, defense and ST should have cohesion as a unit. It's not just the line.

To a lesser degree the same
> is true for a secondary. Lets see how much impact
> Joe Haden had on the Browns:

The only organization run worse than ours is your only example? The team that has a first round QB in rehab and will be picking 1st in the draft? That's Haden's fault about as much as it is Tannehill's fault for giving up an 80 yard bomb to Odell Beckham on Monday.

Besides, I'd say JH has a great impact considering they are 2-2 with him and 1-8 without him this year. When one guy can not only take away your biggest weapon on offense but make your QB worse, it's a pretty nice impact.

I'll take a Pro Bowl corner over a reach at QB any day.

> People can keep sticking their head in the sand
> over it all they want hoping to be the flash in
> the pan '99 Bucs or waiting for the one in a
> million Tom Brady from the 6th round.

You act like you can just go out in the back yard and pick one off the tree????

A Top QB
> doesn't guarantee success, but not having one
> guarantees the lack of it 85-90% of the time
> (which we have been busy proving for over a decade
> now).

YES. All due to MULTIPLE bad personnel decisions by inadequate leaders. It's not one player. No one player is capable of carrying a team. NOT ONE. Even Tom Brady has a damn good defense and the best coaching in the league.

Andrew Luck joins his teammates on the practice field for this first time since his injury.


Hopefully he can play when we play the colts.

Well, Cassal did pretty well back in the day.

They might have lost 4 games tho .

Any QB drafted besides a verifiable stud like Luck is going to go through the same crap. Every week it will be:

Is QB playing good enough to start? Is Tannehill playing better than the pick? Do they run the ball more? Is the stud able to run at all? Can they protect the stud? Is there anyone for the stud to get the ball to? Can the defense stop the run... or pass? Is there any other high talent coming up to help the stud? Etc.

Same mess, different names.

dgfred Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, Cassal did pretty well back in the day.
>
> They might have lost 4 games tho .

LOL if you say so brother. If my mind hasn't COMPLETELY gone, the Cassel season (last time Brady was hurt was the ONLY time in the last 15 years NE DIDN'T WIN THE DIVISION or QUALIFY for the playoffs. They thought so much of him they traded him after the season.

JoeFootball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You don't pass on a guy like that just because of
> his position. Just like you don't pass on a Todd
> Gurley because he's a RB ....

Which is precisely what I said at the time of the draft.

JoeFootball Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> If your simply saying we should have taken Matt
> Ryan over Jake Long, I'd say....DUH. Of course!
> That was a terrible move for a rebuilding
> organization.

Totally disagree. Jake Long was a pro bowler for us. Without him even our pitiful record during that time would have been horrible.

KB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dgfred Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Well, Cassal did pretty well back in the day.
> >
> > They might have lost 4 games tho .
>
> LOL if you say so brother. If my mind hasn't
> COMPLETELY gone, the Cassel season (last time
> Brady was hurt was the ONLY time in the last 15
> years NE DIDN'T WIN THE DIVISION or QUALIFY for
> the playoffs. They thought so much of him they
> traded him after the season.


You might want a check-up.
True, no playoffs but check out their record. The post earlier was saying no QB could just take the Patriots and do well. Cassal proves that wrong. They didn't need him with Brady back. Others did.

dgfred Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > dgfred Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Well, Cassal did pretty well back in the day.
> > >
> > > They might have lost 4 games tho .
> >
> > LOL if you say so brother. If my mind hasn't
> > COMPLETELY gone, the Cassel season (last time
> > Brady was hurt was the ONLY time in the last 15
> > years NE DIDN'T WIN THE DIVISION or QUALIFY for
> > the playoffs. They thought so much of him they
> > traded him after the season.
>
>
> You might want a check-up.
> True, no playoffs but check out their record. The
> post earlier was saying no QB could just take the
> Patriots and do well. Cassal proves that wrong.
> They didn't need him with Brady back. Others did.

Let me get this straight. Tom Brady has been a Patriot for 15 years, and ONLY ONCE in that 15 years have the Patriots NOT won the division and NOT made the playoffs. That HAPPENS to be the same year he was hurt all but one game. In you're mind that 'proves' Matt Cassel 'did just as well'??? I don't care what their record was they lost the division and DIDN'T make the playoffs. Cassel, much like Hennehill, couldn't get it done when it mattered.

Cassel is and always was a scrub.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JoeFootball Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > If your simply saying we should have taken Matt
> > Ryan over Jake Long, I'd say....DUH. Of course!
> > That was a terrible move for a rebuilding
> > organization.
>
> Totally disagree. Jake Long was a pro bowler for
> us. Without him even our pitiful record during
> that time would have been horrible.

You think from 2008 to 2011, we had a better record with Henne (and Pennington for 1 year, Moore for 12 games) and Long than we would have with Matt Ryan and a guy like Anthony Collins (who was a 4th round pick in 2008)? or any other mix of LT's?

I'm not saying Jake wasn't a great player (while he lasted) but with the #1 overall pick, I'd have to go with a franchise QB for 10+ years over a left tackle who wore out in 5.

Haha KB,
You made the point about nobody being able to just QB the Patriots and do just as good. Would you take a 11-5 record with a backup QB?

Most years a 11-5 record cruises into the playoffs. An odd year when that record doesn't make it shows you it has all been Brady?

That is a weird theory.

Even 'if' a high drafted QB did a little better than RT... they are not going 11-5 with the team as it is now around him. Look at the Colts... #1 pick stud QB out, defense can't stop anybody, some FAs that are not doing that great, OL injured and can't protect. Ya never know.

Know how about that check-up?

Best regards, dgfred

dgfred Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Haha KB,
> You made the point about nobody being able to just
> QB the Patriots and do just as good. Would you
> take a 11-5 record with a backup QB?
>
> Most years a 11-5 record cruises into the
> playoffs. An odd year when that record doesn't
> make it shows you it has all been Brady?
>
> That is a weird theory.
>
> Even 'if' a high drafted QB did a little better
> than RT... they are not going 11-5 with the team
> as it is now around him. Look at the Colts... #1
> pick stud QB out, defense can't stop anybody, some
> FAs that are not doing that great, OL injured and
> can't protect. Ya never know.
>
> Know how about that check-up?
>
> Best regards, dgfred

Tell ya what. Let's both go get a check up. You tell you're doc that Matt Cassel is just as good as TOm Brady. We'll see who gets put on meds...

That was the point... I wasn't.

My point was a career backup (IMO) came in and did pretty good.

Your point was nobody could come in and do as good as Brady... I just noted that Cassell was decent with only 4 or 5 losses.

If I could get the meds... I might get one anyway.

Joe, I was defending Long's worth as a pro bowler on the offensive line which makes him not a wasted pick but a great pick from the standpoint of value.

You are saying that as good as Long was, we'd been better off with "Matty Ball."

That's an angle to the disagreement that I had not considered as I was only defending Long's play being a perennial Pro Bowler.

But if you say 'IN COMPARISON TO' .....then I'd still say no. I thing Matty would have turned into Hennehill behind a line that didn't have Jake Long in it to at least protect Henne.

AND TO MAKE IT PLAIN TODAY, TODAY, ON THIS VERY DAY, I'D RATHER HAVE TANNEHILL BEING PROTECTED BY JAKE LONG, THAN TO HAVE MATTY RYAN BEING PROTECTED BY TODAY'S DOLPHIN OFFENSIVE LINE.

I would rather have had matt ryan...


But thats a good point chren.

We will never know.

Matt will be watching the playoffs this year too.

The ironic part is Branden Albert was taken at 15 that year.

How about multiple trade downs to end up at 26 and take Duane Brown, LT???

That would have been the best move....the trade down. IF we could have found the trading partners....

What you are demonstrating Joe is the relative value of the two positions. The Dolphins could have traded down to multiple spots and gotten a player as good or better than Jake Long.

They could not have done that and gotten a franchise QB.

That is the reason why we should have grabbed the QB over the LT.