You put your hand on it KB. If we had been 4-10 or 5-9 or even 6-8 going into the game, then you just say, "We just have a bad team" but not only were we 8-6 but had come close to winning all but 2 of the games we lost and arguably all but the NO Saints loss meaning maybe we could have won the first New England game.

So you can't blame the players.

Right CB, this is the NFL not pee wee league. Rarely is a team just TOTALLY out classed at every position player wise. And, as you say we were 8-6 and on a winning streak. No WAY a competent coaching staff shouldn't be able to come up with a game plan to be competitive with a 6-9 opponent when your playoff hopes are on the line.

KB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Question. If our O-Line isn't good enough to beat
> the Bills, how'd it beat the Bengals and Pats,


Its about matchups.

No Wilfork in NE and no Atkins in Cincy makes their D-line's easier to handle.

Buffalo has two very good DT's and the most talented DE in the sport.

Its a much worse matchup for our current O-line than either NE or Cincy.

ChyrenB Wrote:

> So you can't blame the players.

So you think the gameplan was 100% to blame for the 19-0 debacle in Buffalo? I'm pretty sure that train wreck was a total team effort.....coaches included

Bad coaching, our players are the only reason why we are even talking playoffs. Our gay ads coaches can not coach a little girls soccer team, let alone grown ads men. Can not wait till they are alllll fired.

Sherman remains the issue. period!

If the game plan is working...Sherman comes out looking great!
The issue is when a curve ball is thrown his way , and he needs to make on the fly adjustments...he appears to have "no clue"!
Let's see how he does this weekend...does he bounce back?ww.

"All I will say is that traditionally, the head coach would be blamed for the performance of the team from A to Z and that is from Arizona and Atlanta to Washington or in college, from Alabama to Xavier."

If it isn't still that way, and I think it is, it should be.

Rick

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB Wrote:
>
> > So you can't blame the players.
>
> So you think the gameplan was 100% to blame for
> the 19-0 debacle in Buffalo? I'm pretty sure that
> train wreck was a total team effort.....coaches
> included

What I was trying to argue, holic, was in response to some people posting the implication that basically, and I'm paraphrasing here "Did it ever occur to you that we just don't have the talent (and that explains the Buffalo loss)."

My intent was not to lay the whole blame on the coaches as much as it was tp rebut the contention that the players were to blame but only in the sense that the poster tried to imply that they just were not good enough.

I saw Hartline dropping balls out there that would have kept drives alive and put points on the board.

I also saw that the Buffalo D line was overpowering our o line.

Now as to the Hartline thing, he is to blame.

As to the offensive playcalling when their superior pass rushing became evident? That's on the coaches.

Hooligan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with you Colonel and not with Ken who
> would leave the coaching staff intact.
> I doubt Jim Turner will survive the bullygate
> fiasco, nor should he. I have read that he is know
> to have used "loud, insulting, profanity laced"
> language directed at Jonathan Martin. Imagine
> that, in an NFL locker room. That, coupled with
> the fact that he is the architect of the worst
> o-line in the history of the Federation.
> No valid argument could be made to retain him in
> his present capacity.


RE: I would keep the staff intact for the sake of continuity and chemestry. These things would be of benefit to our players, schemes and the overall development of the team as a whole IMHO. But that said, the coaches would, and should, be on a shorter leash next season. Turner should be given a pass for this season because of all of the changes, lack of personnel, and the scandal he's had to deal with. No amount of coaching IMHO could get the patchwork line we have on the field right now to play at a high level. They have despite everything though, played semi well at times, and that should be taken into consideration and it should buy Turner just a "bit" of leway.

Right now I'm all for adding talent and playmakers for next season while retaining as much of the talent we currently have as we can. Then allowing a cohesive staff to work with them, expand the playbook, refine the issues and field the best team we can in 2014.

I also realize that there may be changes in the staff for next season even if I don't desire them because a few of our assistants may leave for other jobs...should that occur Ireland has to be pitching his A game to get top shelf replacements.

In any event with the money we have currently, F/A, the draft, another off season of coaching the systems and techniques, the improvements those things should bring to the current team and the way we hung in there and were competitive and grew this season. We should expect to finish 2014 nothing less than 11-5, in contention for the division, and at worst be the #3 seed in the playoffs.

I bet Carolina is happy they didn't can Ron Rivera. First time head coach that made changes to his staff has his team on the verge of winning his division.

you don't fire people for the sake of firing people.

it's so easy to be negative and point blame when in reality this is right where most of you thought this team would be. on the verge of the playoffs with 8-10 wins.

chyren will say it's not talent because we've been in almost every game yet can't fathom that it may just be good coaching that has kept this cast of misfits in those game.

Heads must roll! we should be 16-0!

Clowns

I understand the need for continuity but, it doesn't necessarily have to be across the board.
We've all seen the underthrown balls to Wallace, some of which could have gone for TDs and you have an OC that freely admits that the long pass is not something that they practice on much.
Do you really want that to continue into next season.
The cadence thing is another example. We've noticed it, the announcers have mentioned it.
The lack of halftime adjustments or worse, adjustments away from something that is clearly working.
How much of these shortcomings are we willing to endure next season in the interests of "continuity."
I can hope that some organization is going to offer Sherman an HC job and we'll be force to replace him but, I don't think that's going to happen, for a reason.

Seriously all this lets keep the staff together is just pissing me off. Its like having Bush as our Offensive cordinator, Cheney as our defensive coordinator, Hillary as our GM and Obama as or HC. Can't win with these idiots on a regular basis fellas.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Question. If our O-Line isn't good enough to
> beat
> > the Bills, how'd it beat the Bengals and Pats,
>
>
> Its about matchups.
>
> No Wilfork in NE and no Atkins in Cincy makes
> their D-line's easier to handle.
>
> Buffalo has two very good DT's and the most
> talented DE in the sport.
>
> Its a much worse matchup for our current O-line
> than either NE or Cincy.

Exactly. I said this last weekend but nobody wants to hear it. Buffalo is leading the league in sacks for a reason. They also swept us for a reason....because they consistently win individual matchups vs Miami. Coach the players up all you want but if your body is incapable of competing with different body, coaching will go only so far.

They had no answer for Williams on the inside and our RB's failed to pick up blitzes and stunts all day coming from the outside. Buffalo also disrupted short passing routes because of press coverage.

The linebackers were god awful and cannot seem to plug any holes. We had 2 CB's with as many tackles as our MLB. Our FS has more tackles.

McKinnie was terrible and almost lethargic. Brenner was schooled by Kyle Williams.

However, I was not impressed with the lack of adjustments or the game plan by coaches but it wouldn't have mattered much since the players failed miserably in execution on all levels of offense. Terrible day from Hartline. Uncharacteristic.

It was a team (lack of) effort loss. I never liked Sherman but let's not get too simplistic in the blame.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Ya know, this is a very difficult subject. Continuity is important for any team; but just to keep coaches for continuity sake is not justified.

Concerning the Fins...despite my continuous hammering of Sherman for his playcalling, I would say to give this whole staff one more year, and more importantly, Ireland must get the pieces (esp OL). Very difficult for a coaching staff to design plays when the offensive line can't keep the defense out of its own backfield, both pass and run. Our OL is basically backups that are starting (maybe excepting Pouncey).

The deep passes to Wallace MUST be worked on during the off season, and at least 30 minutes or so during practice throughout the season. You can't have your most dangerous weapon not practicing the deep balls.

I am also looking at getting at least one ILB during the off season. Not saying get rid of Ellerby or Wheeler, but get another guy in there who could push them for their jobs. Hopefully, those two guys can get it together during the off season.

Anyway, much depends on Ireland doing a good job of shopping for groceries, then we can all hope the coaching staff can "coach" the players into doing their jobs properly.

I don't know how much improvement you get, putting RT in a brand new system next year, who is only familiar with one system his entire college and pro career as a QB... He has never learned another system... So that might outweigh any positive you would gain from another hot shot OC, at least for a year or 2... And that is if you hire the right guy....

You would almost have to bring somebody up from within the system or give Philbin the responsibility to call plays... That is the only way it makes sense IMO, if we want to win in the next couple years and let Sherman go....

I think the oline was the biggest problem of the year, and that had more to do with personnel then coaching... I also don't think Lamar Miller lived up to expectations, which can be partially blamed on the line but he also didn't flash of greatness with his vision, moves or speed, like many suggested would happen... I definitely saw him get caught from behind this year on a chance to take it the distance.....Track speed yes, game speed, I didn't really see it this year in games.... I can also give Sherman criticism in the area that he doesn't run enough screens or passes to the RB's to help offset the pass rush....

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

West coast language....more versatile offense. Not sure who that would be.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Great post Eesti,

I agree with almost everything that you said...except that "you are not too sure that much would of changed in the game " had the adjustments been better.

That is "unknown"!
I think you are settling on mediocrity if you state the above..

Coaching is more important than you think...especially in football.


I coach kids basketball...and we lost a crucial semi final matchup after trucking through the regular season , annialating all the teams in our path. The opposing coach made a matchup change, and I had trouble adjusting to his strategic change...we lost the game in a heartbreaker, and were eliminated from going to the finals.
I thought about the game a lot afterwards, and figured out a way to contend with his adjustment...but it was already too late, the game was over.

What makes a good coach is how he quickly they can make the necessary adjustments and be successful.

There were 4 games this season, that mike Sherman and philbin, were simply out strategized!

1) new Orleans game....they simply did not learn, that running the ball , and slowing the game down, would give us the best chance to win the game. Look at the jets, they game planned and were successful against the saints.

2) 2nd half of new England game 1. Belichek, made the necessary adjustments at half time to take over a game that was ours... We could not adjust to his adjustments.

3) End of buffalo game number 1. How about a quick pass or screen, instead of a drop back pass with a vicious pass rush.

4) and game #2) at buffalo..what makes this harder to take, is that we already played buffalo, and knew that they had a vicious pass rush!
Did Sherman think that the pass rush would disappear?

I am puzzled by the lack of adjustments that Sherman made...he did absolutely nothing, except try to fit a square peg into a round hole!

The true test for Sherman and philbin is how they bounce back from a truly horribly coached game!

Will they bring their A game tomorrow against the Jets...or will it be a recurrence of the buffalo fiasco!

That in my opinion will be the true indication of whether Sherman deserves another season!

Those are my thoughts!

Stevie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/28/2013 02:54AM by steviec13.

My sentiments exactly Steve. Game speed adjustments is key.
We have the luxury of nitpicking, criticizing and, second guessing for days and even weeks after the event. Only a coach knows the pressure of doing it at game speed, not just one play but, several in rapid succession.

........................................

The Clown Show Continues



-

Amen.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know how much improvement you get, putting
> RT in a brand new system next year, who is only
> familiar with one system his entire college and
> pro career as a QB... He has never learned another
> system... So that might outweigh any positive you
> would gain from another hot shot OC, at least for
> a year or 2... And that is if you hire the right
> guy....
>
> You would almost have to bring somebody up from
> within the system or give Philbin the
> responsibility to call plays... That is the only
> way it makes sense IMO, if we want to win in the
> next couple years and let Sherman go....
>
> I think the oline was the biggest problem of the
> year, and that had more to do with personnel then
> coaching... I also don't think Lamar Miller lived
> up to expectations, which can be partially blamed
> on the line but he also didn't flash of greatness
> with his vision, moves or speed, like many
> suggested would happen... I definitely saw him get
> caught from behind this year on a chance to take
> it the distance.....Track speed yes, game speed, I
> didn't really see it this year in games.... I can
> also give Sherman criticism in the area that he
> doesn't run enough screens or passes to the RB's
> to help offset the pass rush....


Perfect post Crowder! Well said

Crowder the Lamar Miller thing is simple. He's not getting the ball in space. He is a juker. You can't juke running into the middle of the line where all the elephants, both offensive and defensive, are.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crowder the Lamar Miller thing is simple. He's
> not getting the ball in space. He is a juker.
> You can't juke running into the middle of the line
> where all the elephants, both offensive and
> defensive, are.


Lamar Miller is not a juker, that was pretty evident this year... Reggie Bush is a juker, Lamar Miller is a one cut and go... He is suppose to be a speed demon, which Bush is not... Speed demons are not suppose to get caught from behind by anybody... With the weakness in our oline, we needed a juker and vision guy, not a one cut and go speed guy...

Miller needs the holes that are designed to be open with the play to be there, so he cuts and blazes past the LBs.. When they aren't open, he runs into them anyways, that was a problem this year. Th coaches like a guy that follows orders but his style never broke for him this year.... And we would have been better off with an improv style like Bush with the weaknesses we had on the line.... IF the line was better Millers style probably would have paid off better...

Bush had the vision to see what was happening with the line and adjust if the designed holes was being clogged up, leaving another spot open... We could have used some of that this year with our other personnel issues...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder he may not be as good a juker as Bush but I have to disagree that he is not a juker. Yes, he's got speed but even our coaching staff knows that you can't blow through the holes if you get the ball five yards back after the ball has been snapped.

They don't know that because they continue to do it.

What I meant was that they aren't expecting him to get through by sheer speed alone, they think that he will get through with a combination of power, speed and blocking. Of course, LOL, two of those elements are missing. Neither can you juke your way through where there is no hole.

In either case, if you want either a speed demon or a juker to make you yardage, they have to get the ball in space.

If you are going to send a guy up the middle, either you have to have an offensive line that blows holes open a mile wide or he has to have enough power to flatten the linebackers and keep going like the Zonk used to do.

you run slants against a pass rush. you don't run curls and outs. Not happy with OC or DC

Sherman is horrible. 4th and short same call every times that never works

Hey guys this game will get him fired.