Found our Te for the future. Thank god! Can't wait till next year hopefully get Keller back and them two wreak ggiv like gronk and Hernandez did.

Only problem is, he's not a true TE, he's a FB/HB/TE, he's Keller/Hernandez lite, but we still need a guy in the Gronk mode (maybe Sims or Egnew step up next year like Clay did this year?)

Yeah ok he only blew off two tackles one by Polumolu to score the game winning rd. Dude is fast and with time will be a better blocker as a TE.

Clay is making the best of his opportunities. Imagine how much better he's still going to get after we cut him and he goes on to play for another team.

........................................

The Clown Show Continues



-

I think with his emergence, we don't re-sign Keller

Clay is a pleasant surprise this year.

Clay made plays last year too. Just more of them this year. I saw the potential, but again the GM went out and tried to get someone to play the spot.

When Clay was drafted, I wasn't sure how he was going to fit in offensively. He was a hybrid: FB or TE? He showed spurts of athleticism and thought he was a player. My hopes were high. Then as time passed, my opinion of him declined. After a while I thought he might be cut until Fasano was traded. With Keller getting injured, I thought we'd be in serious trouble, but Clay's number was called and recalled and his efforts on the field have changed my opinion of him. I have high hopes that he will continue to blossom. Kudos to him for rising to the occasion.

Well done.

and he stays injury free.....knock on wood.


He is definetely a bright spot on this team.

Clay is already one of the BEST in the NFL at what he does.

The kids upside is unreal. The play he made on the TD is just as good as it gets. Couple that with his abaility to go deep, and protect, and down the middle -- he's just about in a class by himself.

True story!

BNF.

Clay stepped up!! He looked great!

Darn Skippy he is Amazing. New man crush.

Hooligan2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Clay is making the best of his opportunities.
> Imagine how much better he's still going to get
> after we cut him and he goes on to play for
> another team.

LOL. This post has to be in consideration January for the funniest post of 2013.

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Only problem is, he's not a true TE, he's a
> FB/HB/TE, he's Keller/Hernandez lite, but we still
> need a guy in the Gronk mode (maybe Sims or Egnew
> step up next year like Clay did this year?)


Exactly.

He's a matchup nightmare at H-Back or FB. He's ok as a TE.

I'd love to see us draft the TE from North Carolina, Eric Ebron. Having him at TE and Clay at H-back, with Hartline and Wallace outside would be a really tough matchup for defenses.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'd love to see us draft the TE from North
> Carolina, Eric Ebron. Having him at TE and Clay
> at H-back,

Then we'd have 4 TEs,

Keller, Dion Sims, Clay, and Eric Ebron.

Clay has had much better hands this year then he did last year... As Truth said he is a matchup nightmare, LB's can not cover him and very few DB's can tackle him...... Hell he shook off a CB and Polamalu on the go ahead score in the 4qt...
I imagine he is coming up on his contract soon..... another unexpected pay check we are going to have to write....

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Yes Charles Clay has been playing very well, and the team in general has bounced back from bully gate. Their you have I officially named it so that it too must die, and never ever be brought up by any player on this team again.

agreed I am very impressed with Clay. I also think he's not a true TE, but if we paired him with someone like Keller or that TE from UNC, look out!

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> agreed I am very impressed with Clay. I also think
> he's not a true TE, but if we paired him with
> someone like Keller or that TE from UNC, look out!


Keller would have been an awesome addition to our offense.

I don't think he's ever going to be the same after that gruesome injury though. I can't see us re-signing him.

I'd love to draft Ebron. He's a monster athlete. Ebron, Sims and Egnew at TE...with Clay at FB/H-back and we'd be pretty set at TE for a long time.

Why would we draft a TE? Clay, Sims, Egnew already give us one of the better TE groups in the league with a lot of upside to boot.

We run a WC offense like Green Bay not a 2 TE offense like New England. There is no need to pair two great TEs as most of our packages have only one TE on the field. Certainly we could change philosophy but that doesn't make much sense after handing Wallace/Hartline significant deals, Gibson a moderate deal, and with Matthews emerging. Moving the offense away from the WR is essentially wasting that money and talent.

Also, Clay is hardly Keller lite at this point. He is on pace to easily outpace Keller's best single season in yards, completions, and tds.

To find a player that is, truly, an upgrade on Clay that player would need to do everything Clay does well plus block at an above average level and have height and jumping ability.

Maybe Ebron is all that but it's a pretty big risk with a 1st round pick considering our current production plus the upside of Sims/Egnew plus the nature of our offensive scheme where only one TE plays significant snaps.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2013 05:39PM by phinsfan402.

Crowder, Clay will be a FA after the 2014 season. If we continues to produce then I have no problem handing him an unexpected new contract with a raise. We are getting great value from him this season considering his cheap 6th round contract.

I tihnk Ebron will be a Jimmy Graham type guy, and if you can draft him you do. When Gronk and Hernandez were at the top of their games, no one was saying there was no "need" for one or the other.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I tihnk Ebron will be a Jimmy Graham type guy, and
> if you can draft him you do. When Gronk and
> Hernandez were at the top of their games, no one
> was saying there was no "need" for one or the
> other.

You miss my point. If you design your offense around having two great TE's, like NE, then of course you need two great TEs. However, miami hardly ever runs two TE sets, has designed its offense around 3WR-1TE sets, and has invested new money in 3 WR last off-season while a 4th WR on the team has shown promise. They could redesign the offense for two TE but that wastes the money and talent at WR.

Although, none of that matters if you have a conviction Ebron is the next Jimmy Graham, take him and sort everything else out later.

I loved what Clay brought to the table even as a rookie. However, I expected more out of him last year. I read that he had trouble with the mental part and was crossing my fingers that he'd figure it out. It looks like he did, and I think we all saw that the talent was there. I love what he brings to our offense.

phinsfan402 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why would we draft a TE? Clay, Sims, Egnew
> already give us one of the better TE groups in the
> league with a lot of upside to boot.


Why did we sign Dustin Keller and then draft Dion Sims?


Because we need an inline blocker as the #1 TE who is a big time receiving threat.

Clay isn't that guy. He's a FB/H-back.



>
> We run a WC offense like Green Bay not a 2 TE
> offense like New England. There is no need to
> pair two great TEs as most of our packages have
> only one TE on the field. Certainly we could
> change philosophy but that doesn't make much sense
> after handing Wallace/Hartline significant deals,
> Gibson a moderate deal, and with Matthews
> emerging. Moving the offense away from the WR is
> essentially wasting that money and talent.


Greenbay carried 4 or 5 TE's at times when they won a title a few years ago.

The WC in SF under Bill Walsh was at its best when it had a TE who could run and block and a FB/h-back who could run and catch.



>
> Also, Clay is hardly Keller lite at this point. He
> is on pace to easily outpace Keller's best single
> season in yards, completions, and tds.

Being a great TE isn't just about catching the football.

Clay just isn't an in-line blocker. He's not a TE.



>
> To find a player that is, truly, an upgrade on
> Clay that player would need to do everything Clay
> does well plus block at an above average level and
> have height and jumping ability.


I'm not talking about upgrading over Clay.

I'm talking about putting him at the position where he can maximize his skill set.






>
> Maybe Ebron is all that but it's a pretty big risk
> with a 1st round pick considering our current
> production plus the upside of Sims/Egnew plus the
> nature of our offensive scheme where only one TE
> plays significant snaps.


I think both of those guys will be solid players. I don't see either as a guy that threatens the middle of the defense.


If you had a guy like Keller or Ebron at the #1 TE spot and Clay in the backfield, you are going to see more LB's on the field to defend the run.

There are very few LB's who can cover Clay in that set. If you have a #1 TE who can stretch the seem, it draws attention from the safeties, which makes it harder to double Wallace. If the defense goes to an extra DB then it becomes easier to run the ball. Its about creating mismatches we can exploit.

We still need a TE who can stretch the seem AND block in the running game.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why did we sign Dustin Keller and then draft Dion
> Sims?

So now we have Clay, as good as Keller, and Sims. Seems like mission accomplished.

> Greenbay carried 4 or 5 TE's at times when they
> won a title a few years ago.

GB had an established weapon in Finley and a bunch of role players they'd use in certain packages. Kind of like what we have with Clay and Sims/Egnew.

> Clay just isn't an in-line blocker. He's not a
> TE.

Man, I think you are seriously selling Clay short. He's no Tony Gonzalez out there just trying to get in the defenders way.

Clay might not be the biggest TE in the league but he sticks his nose in there with DEs and LBs. Clay is definitely an adequate blocker at TE in today's game.

> I'm not talking about upgrading over Clay.
>
> I'm talking about putting him at the position
> where he can maximize his skill set.

Clay is best as an H-back and we use him there frequently. He is also solid as a traditional TE. We use that versatility effectively.

> I think both of those guys will be solid players.
> I don't see either as a guy that threatens the
> middle of the defense.

Egnew has the potential to be a serious seam threat. Clay is an above average seam threat just not elite.

> If you had a guy like Keller or Ebron at the #1 TE
> spot and Clay in the backfield, you are going to
> see more LB's on the field to defend the run.

> There are very few LB's who can cover Clay in that
> set. If you have a #1 TE who can stretch the
> seem, it draws attention from the safeties, which
> makes it harder to double Wallace. If the
> defense goes to an extra DB then it becomes easier
> to run the ball. Its about creating mismatches we
> can exploit.

Firstly, if we went 12 personnel with Clay, Ebron, Hartline, and Wallace then you would rarely see a base defense. The defense would be forced to bring a DB on the field. At that point, you're correct we would have a numbers advantage in the run game.

Secondly, we already have a numbers advantage in the run game a lot of the time. Against 11 personnel, the defense usually brings one extra DB on the field. Against Miami's 11 personnel, defenses have been bringing two extra DBs on the field because of Clay's emergence.

Thirdly, this numbers advantage in the run game does no good if you can't capitalize on it. Miami hasn't had the OL play to consistently capitalize this season.

We already have the matchup problems you desire. For the Miami offense heavy on 11 personnel, Clay is a great fit. For an offense heavy on 12 personnel, Clay and Ebron would be great fits. Sure, we could change our offensive philosophy, incorporate Ebron, and have success. But it wastes picks, 1st for Ebron, 6th for Clay, 5th for Sims, 3rd for Egnew in last four drafts, and talent currently under contract as there wouldn't be nearly as many snaps for Gibson and Matthews. It's really just not necessary at this point. We should fix up the Oline so we can better take advantage of the mismatches we already exploit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2013 09:27AM by phinsfan402.

phinsfan402 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Why did we sign Dustin Keller and then draft
> Dion
> > Sims?
>
> So now we have Clay, as good as Keller, and Sims.
> Seems like mission accomplished.


Clay isn't as good as Keller was, and Keller was nothing special as an inline blocker.




>
> > Greenbay carried 4 or 5 TE's at times when they
> > won a title a few years ago.
>
> GB had an established weapon in Finley and a bunch
> of role players they'd use in certain packages.
> Kind of like what we have with Clay and
> Sims/Egnew.



we have the role players. We don't have the Finley. I'm suggesting that going and getting a "Finley" would give us a fantastic TE corps which would make our entire offense better.


>
> > Clay just isn't an in-line blocker. He's not
> a
> > TE.
>
> Man, I think you are seriously selling Clay short.
> He's no Tony Gonzalez out there just trying to get
> in the defenders way.



I'm not selling him short. He has an extremely valuable skill set for our offense. He's just not a #1 TE. He's a utility guy.

Clay rarely lines up as an in-line blocker. He's used primarily as an H-Back/FB in the backfield, in motion or in the slot.

Imagine this: 1st and goal at the 3. You have a stud TE and Sims lined up at TE, with Clay at FB and Hartline or Wallace outside. Add tot hat a good RB and a QB who can run and you are EXTREMELY difficult to defend.

Much more so that we are now.


>
> Clay might not be the biggest TE in the league but
> he sticks his nose in there with DEs and LBs.
> Clay is definitely an adequate blocker at TE in
> today's game.


I'm not knocking Clay or questioning his effort. I'm just telling you that he's not a #1 TE.




>
> > I'm not talking about upgrading over Clay.
> >
> > I'm talking about putting him at the position
> > where he can maximize his skill set.
>
> Clay is best as an H-back and we use him there
> frequently. He is also solid as a traditional TE.
> We use that versatility effectively.
>
> > I think both of those guys will be solid
> players.
> > I don't see either as a guy that threatens the
> > middle of the defense.
>
> Egnew has the potential to be a serious seam
> threat. Clay is an above average seam threat just
> not elite.


Egnew has some upside but I'm not willing to bet next year on him becoming what you hope he can be.

Clay would be even better if Keller was playing or if we put a #1 TE on the field with him next year.



>
> > If you had a guy like Keller or Ebron at the #1
> TE
> > spot and Clay in the backfield, you are going
> to
> > see more LB's on the field to defend the run.
>
> > There are very few LB's who can cover Clay in
> that
> > set. If you have a #1 TE who can stretch the
> > seem, it draws attention from the safeties,
> which
> > makes it harder to double Wallace. If the
> > defense goes to an extra DB then it becomes
> easier
> > to run the ball. Its about creating mismatches
> we
> > can exploit.
>
> Firstly, if we went 12 personnel with Clay, Ebron,
> Hartline, and Wallace then you would rarely see a
> base defense. The defense would be forced to
> bring a DB on the field. At that point, you're
> correct we would have a numbers advantage in the
> run game.



That's the point. Two WR sets don't often see nickle coverage. With that base lineup you force the defense to commit and no matter WHAT they choose to do, we have an advantage. If they go small with an extra DB then you run it. When they get tired of getting run over and put in another LB you exploit the mismatches in the passing game.

If we had Dustin Keller right now our offense would be at an entirely different level.

Adding a guy like Ebron who has Jimmy Graham/Vernon Davis skills would be exactly what the doctor ordered.


>
> Secondly, we already have a numbers advantage in
> the run game a lot of the time. Against 11
> personnel, the defense usually brings one extra DB
> on the field. Against Miami's 11 personnel,
> defenses have been bringing two extra DBs on the
> field because of Clay's emergence.
>
> Thirdly, this numbers advantage in the run game
> does no good if you can't capitalize on it. Miami
> hasn't had the OL play to consistently capitalize
> this season.
>
> We already have the matchup problems you desire.
> For the Miami offense heavy on 11 personnel, Clay
> is a great fit. For an offense heavy on 12
> personnel, Clay and Ebron would be great fits.
> Sure, we could change our offensive philosophy,
> incorporate Ebron, and have success. But it
> wastes picks, 1st for Ebron, 6th for Clay, 5th for
> Sims, 3rd for Egnew in last four drafts, and
> talent currently under contract as there wouldn't
> be nearly as many snaps for Gibson and Matthews.
> It's really just not necessary at this point. We
> should fix up the Oline so we can better take
> advantage of the mismatches we already exploit.

I agree that its a matter of philosophy. But each opponent creates different matchups to exploit. Being flexible gives you the ability to adjust week to week based on who you line up against.

I'd rather fill my Oline needs (LT, RG, RT) in free agency. Most O-lineman take 1-2 years to develop anyway. If I could get a #1 TE in free agency that would be fine as well. But adding one should be a priority, be it in the draft or as a free agent.

But there is no doubt that our running game would benefit from a #1 TE as well as an Oline upgrade.

Good points, eesti. Especially about how we define a #1 TE these days. For example, Jimmy Graham is split out on over 50% of his snaps.

And Clay is a better run blocker than any of you are giving him credit for. He's not great but there are so many TE's that are worse at run blocking. Clay can struggle when he has to block a DE by himself but he is good at engaging with LB and S in space. Plus we aren't a power running team so the need to have a TE that can drive a DE off the line is only an issue in goal line/short yardage situations. This is not saying that it wouldn't be helpful if Sims develops into a great run blocker or Clay improves his blocking ability.

And I know what Truth will say to that post, eesti.

He is of the notion to run a 2 TE set like NE did with Gronk and Hernandez. This is a very effective system if you have the talent at TE. But to run this offense you limit significant snaps at WR, which means Gibson and Matthews would be phased out of the offense.

It's just preference of philosophy and system. Both systems work great if you have the talent.