ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Treasure, I'm not saying that in the future it
> will have been proven to be a bad decision. All
> indications are that in the future it may be
> proven to have been the right decision. However,
> at the time it was done, it seemed a risky
> decision at the time because at a casual glance,
> Bess was a more effective receiver than our "at
> that time" no. 1 receiver Brian Hartline.
>
> Now we have Wallace, Gibson. But at the time, it
> seemed like an unnecessarily unwise move that was
> dependent entirely on being able to replace him in
> the future. And frankly, I thought in the draft
> we would choose Keenan Allen or Corrallelle
> Patterson and maybe that's why they would do it.
> But that was not the case.

Didn't we already have Wallace and Gibson when Bess was traded??????

And Crowder, are you saying you would of rather kept Bess and let Hartline walk??

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Treasure, I'm not saying that in the future it
> > will have been proven to be a bad decision.
> All
> > indications are that in the future it may be
> > proven to have been the right decision.
> However,
> > at the time it was done, it seemed a risky
> > decision at the time because at a casual
> glance,
> > Bess was a more effective receiver than our "at
> > that time" no. 1 receiver Brian Hartline.
> >
> > Now we have Wallace, Gibson. But at the time,
> it
> > seemed like an unnecessarily unwise move that
> was
> > dependent entirely on being able to replace him
> in
> > the future. And frankly, I thought in the
> draft
> > we would choose Keenan Allen or Corrallelle
> > Patterson and maybe that's why they would do it.
>
> > But that was not the case.



>
> Didn't we already have Wallace and Gibson when
> Bess was traded??????
>


Haha...that's exactly right dolphaholic. But you better be careful...facts are irrelevant to CB. Its all about whatever he can argue about at that moment in time, even when he's been proven to be completely wrong about his original assertion.



For those who actually care about facts:


We signed Hartline before Free Agency kicked off on 3/12.

Wallace agreed to terms on the first day of free agency and signed a few days after that.

Gibson signed around 3/15.

Bess was traded during the 2nd or 3rd day of the draft which was the last weekend in April...or 6 weeks after we already had Wallace, Hartline, Gibson, Bins, and Matthews under contract.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2013 10:12AM by THE Truth.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> There's a reason he's not still here Crowder and
> its because he can't do all the things Philbin
> wants ALL his WR's to do.

I can live with that argument, and believe it to hold the most weight as to why Bess is gone.. It has also been said or suggested that Bess got on Philbins bad side, because he didnt finish out the last 3 games that didnt matter... I have heard Philbin thought he could have and should have played, and when he didnt, that pretty much wrote his ticket for departure... Between those 2 reasons, that is why Bess is gone... All the other stuff is just banter IMO...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

I think a number of you are off base when it comes to WHY Bess was moved and WHY it was not necessarily a brilliant roster play….

First and foremost, Philbin is also a "spec" dude (which scares me a bit when it comes to his ultimate evaluation skill) and likes his WRs at 72 to 76 inches tall and rather "longish" in physical composition -- and of course he wants each WR at least somewhat capable of running the complete route tree. Last check -- Bess is well under 6ft and is an "inside specialist" as opposed to a "jack-of-all-trades" WR.

In addition to the above, Ireland lusts to get extra picks (not necessarily a bad thing) and knew Bess was set free next year so why not expedite the process and get some draft cache as well? It all works fine -- UNLESS you have diminishing returns at the position and hence trading Bess reflects back as a "questionable" move -- especially since we went out of our way to avoid drafting a single WR this past April!

I'll just say this -- its 100% YET TO BE DETERMINED if this regime is a collective hive of geniuses. And of course -- Mr. Ireland seems to have turned the corner BUT his ultimate determination is also YTBD. All in all, it hinges on Thill. If he's great -- nothing else is a major consequence. If he falters -- then EVERYTHING else will go under the microscope.

But regardless of what happens -- there are a large number of Dolphin fans who DO NOT LIKE the Bess trade -- myself included -- for a number of reasons other than is truncated stature. A bad move is a bad move no matter how you spin it -- and IMO trading Bess was ill-advised (ALL things considered).

I could go on. But it's meaningless.

Welcome Back, BNF. Also, welcome back your common sense about the notion, headed by the person who so arrogantly names himself the truth that the "regime is a collective hive of geniuses."

Sorry Chyren, you had this Dikembe Mutombo wagging finger coming......"NOT IN MY HOUSE" (in classic cookie monster voice)

What's confusing to me is that people are more outspoken over losing a guy (D who had 191 receptions for 2,135 yards and 9 Td's over the last 3 years in Miami....compared to losing a franchise WR that had 285 receptions, 3,736 yards and 20 Td's over that same period.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Yeah, my memory was they got rid of Bess before signing those guys so my memory was off. Not really earth shaking.

Ireland and Philbin have made it clear they are trying to get younger and faster at every position, and to build this team for the long haul by signing younger guys to cap friendly deals. In addition to Bess' shortcomings as far as not being a fit for this system, he is probably on the down side of his career instead of the upside, and he will be a free agent next season, so the Phins would have only had his services for this year anyway. The guy they traded Bess for (Mike Gillislee) is younger, faster, cheaper, and will probably be with the team for at least the length of his rookie contract.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, my memory was they got rid of Bess before
> signing those guys so my memory was off. Not
> really earth shaking.


My Mutombo reference was to you getting blocked.........NOT IN MY HOUSE

Building a younger team i agree with. But keeping a steady, level headed, SURE HANDED vet to use as a 3-4 receiver was a no-brainer IMO. The only downside i see to keeping him was money, but frankly, I'm not an investor, I'm a fan. I want to win. Besides we will likely waste just as much money now paying a guy who won't play all year and having to pick up an replacement who will be unproven.

KB Wrote:but frankly, I'm not an investor, I'm a fan.

Wow. That is SO refreshing to hear!

I mean I get sick hearing all the salary cap BS and quasi GM talk when the GAME is just a freaking game and peep want to see players play -- the $$$$$$$$ crap really turns my stomach...

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I loved Bess. Great character and he caught a
> > bunch of short passes. How many Touchdowns did
> he
> > have? He was completely ineffective in the red
> > zone. Sorry.....we know have a coach who wants
> to
> > improve.
>
> Treasure, just out of curiosity, how many more
> TD's do you think Hartline had then Bess. Actually
> Bess scored in the redzone, Hartline never scored
> in the redzone last year... The argument about
> Bess and TD's doesnt hold any weight, because
> Tannehill was our biggest problem in the red zone
> last year, not Bess.... If the coach wanted to
> improve why did we sign Hartline to a big contract
> when he was even less productive then Bess in the
> redzone?


74 catches for 1,083 yards - Not a bad season. The biggest Problem I see Hartline Vs Bess is YAC . Bess is strictly a possession receiver. Nothing more nothing less. He catches the ball where he's at and that's it. There are flashes of a lot more from Brian. The biggest knock last year , and I'm still kind of concerned about it , was out Oline. I think the best move we made this past off season is the one we didn't make.....resigning 77 Long. He is done. That blindside along with Tannihill's Greeness at the position hurt everyone. I never once tried to compare Bess Vs. Hartline. I just don't think Bess leaving is going to leave this giant empty spot on our Team. We are not worse (probably a lot better) with him on a different Team.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

It's only been a week but reports say Quinn from the Rams is clearly outclassed by Jake Long who has been winning battles. Like i said still early for the Rams. They have not been practicing as long as the phins. Not sure I would agree he is done but whether or not he is worth a fat contract remains to be seen. Early indications from his replacement (Martin) are not good.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yeah, my memory was they got rid of Bess before
> > signing those guys so my memory was off. Not
> > really earth shaking.
>
>
> My Mutombo reference was to you getting
> blocked.........NOT IN MY HOUSE


Oh.

But see my later post in reference to THAT.

This wasn't about money. This is about building a core team. Bess would have been gone next year with free agency. Only 2 situations would have occurred if we kept him this year: Either he has a good year like last year (good - not great), and some team desparate for a wide receiver offers much more money than he's worth, or he does very little this year in this offence with the other receivers on board (most likely scenario, in which case why would we want to re-sign him and take up a roster spot? My belief is that Gillislee will have more total yards and more TDs this year than Bess would have had if we kept him instead, and Gillislee will still be with the team next year. I'm tired of the try-to-win-at-any-cost-this-year approach that nevers works and screws us in future years.

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's only been a week but reports say Quinn from
> the Rams is clearly outclassed by Jake Long who
> has been winning battles. Like i said still early
> for the Rams. They have not been practicing as
> long as the phins. Not sure I would agree he is
> done but whether or not he is worth a fat contract
> remains to be seen. Early indications from his
> replacement (Martin) are not good.


Jake was an elite Athlete. I didn't expect him to go out whimpering with his tail between his legs. But injury wise, you just can't play at that level and keep it up , week after week. I wish him the best. Investing in him and hoping he stayed healthy was a bad gamble. Playing Martin , trying to get him to play better is the better option. Always next year without having Jakes huge salary cap hit to.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

Anemone1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This wasn't about money. This is about building a
> core team. Bess would have been gone next year
> with free agency. Only 2 situations would have
> occurred if we kept him this year: Either he has
> a good year like last year (good - not great), and
> some team desparate for a wide receiver offers
> much more money than he's worth, or he does very
> little this year in this offence with the other
> receivers on board (most likely scenario, in which
> case why would we want to re-sign him and take up
> a roster spot? My belief is that Gillislee will
> have more total yards and more TDs this year than
> Bess would have had if we kept him instead, and
> Gillislee will still be with the team next year.
> I'm tired of the try-to-win-at-any-cost-this-year
> approach that nevers works and screws us in future
> years.




Great point. Keeping Bess who is just going to keep us average will hurt us. We need to take chances on other people. That's how you get great. Cameron Wake was the best example of that. Got to give the Tuna his props for that one. Never settle. Bess wasn't getting what we needed.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anemone1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This wasn't about money. This is about building
> a
> > core team. Bess would have been gone next year
> > with free agency. Only 2 situations would have
> > occurred if we kept him this year: Either he
> has
> > a good year like last year (good - not great),
> and
> > some team desparate for a wide receiver offers
> > much more money than he's worth, or he does
> very
> > little this year in this offence with the other
> > receivers on board (most likely scenario, in
> which
> > case why would we want to re-sign him and take
> up
> > a roster spot? My belief is that Gillislee
> will
> > have more total yards and more TDs this year
> than
> > Bess would have had if we kept him instead, and
> > Gillislee will still be with the team next year.
>
> > I'm tired of the
> try-to-win-at-any-cost-this-year
> > approach that nevers works and screws us in
> future
> > years.
>
>
>
>
> Great point. Keeping Bess who is just going to
> keep us average will hurt us. We need to take
> chances on other people. That's how you get great.
> Cameron Wake was the best example of that. Got to
> give the Tuna his props for that one. Never
> settle. Bess wasn't getting what we needed.


With all of the focus on covering Wallace and Hartline on the outsides and Dustin Keller up the seam as well. I think Bess could have had a career year for us in the slot....No matter the versatility concerns abut not being an outside guy.... I understand that doesnt fit philbins system, but we shall see if Philbins demand for versatility outweighs the benefit that Bess has brought to the team the last 5 or so years... Let alone what could have happened when he was aloud to disappear from the focus of the defense with all eyes on the other 3 potential targets on the field... Maybe Gibson will be majic in that role, but I think Bess could have been pretty damn good..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2013 02:25PM by Crowder52.

Yeah.... Bess would have still produced no doubt. He's a solid player. But don't forget He was in a different system for the last 5 yrs or so he has been with us. He spent 1 yr with this new offense and Apparently I guess he doesn't fit with what Philbin has in mind. They want Yardage, over the middle type guys. Tight end packages, deep balls. I'm really looking forward to seeing a new look on offense with a balanced defense as well.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!