I mentioned that trading away Bess for absolutely nothing was a TERRIBLE move. Most of you agreed except for a few Ireland lovers....

Well,,,,first indications from OTAs show that we are going to struggle finding a true slot receiver...it ain't so easy finding a gem like Bess ...you all took him for granted! Including you ..."dolphinmark".

Let's see how it all plays out...but I have a feeling that we are gonna regret letting Bess go for absolutely nothing!!!!!!

Truly dumb move Ireland !!!

(Yawn)

yes after a few days of OTAs the sky is falling. gibson is a bust let's cut him.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Time will tell, but it is defintely possible and a reasonable prediction and or concern... If Gibson struggles in the slot, I imagine they will use Hartline in the slot... He is comfortable playing there..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Time will tell, but it is defintely possible and a
> reasonable prediction and or concern... If Gibson
> struggles in the slot, I imagine they will use
> Hartline in the slot... He is comfortable playing
> there..


If people have been listening to what Philbin has been saying for the last year 16 months, they would know that ALL WR's are going to be playing in the slot.

The single reason Bess isn't here any longer is that he can ONLY play in the slot which made us more predictable on offense when he was on the field.

steviec13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Well,,,,first indications from OTAs show that we
> are going to struggle finding a true slot
> receiver.


Link?

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crowder52 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Time will tell, but it is defintely possible and
> a
> > reasonable prediction and or concern... If
> Gibson
> > struggles in the slot, I imagine they will use
> > Hartline in the slot... He is comfortable
> playing
> > there..
>
>
> If people have been listening to what Philbin has
> been saying for the last year 16 months, they
> would know that ALL WR's are going to be playing
> in the slot.
>
> The single reason Bess isn't here any longer is
> that he can ONLY play in the slot which made us
> more predictable on offense when he was on the
> field.

Philbin has said a lot of things that he hasn't done.. We were going to run the most offensive plays in the NFL last year, fastest paced team in the league... Didn't happen from play count and the team I saw play...
If Gibson can't get it done in the slot then I would assume he will not play all positions... Gibson is clearly a question mark at this point..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Crowder52 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Time will tell, but it is defintely possible
> and
> > a
> > > reasonable prediction and or concern... If
> > Gibson
> > > struggles in the slot, I imagine they will
> use
> > > Hartline in the slot... He is comfortable
> > playing
> > > there..
> >
> >
> > If people have been listening to what Philbin
> has
> > been saying for the last year 16 months, they
> > would know that ALL WR's are going to be
> playing
> > in the slot.
> >
> > The single reason Bess isn't here any longer is
> > that he can ONLY play in the slot which made us
> > more predictable on offense when he was on the
> > field.
>
> Philbin has said a lot of things that he hasn't
> done.. We were going to run the most offensive
> plays in the NFL last year, fastest paced team in
> the league... Didn't happen from play count and
> the team I saw play...
> If Gibson can't get it done in the slot then I
> would assume he will not play all positions...
> Gibson is clearly a question mark at this point..

Where did he ever say they "were going to run the most offensive plays in the league" last year?

What he did say is the GOAL of his offensive philosophy (no huddle/fast paced offense) is to run 90 plays a game. THE GOAL.


Of course to do that, you need the personnel. He didn't have it last year. That's why Bess is gone. His presence on the field limits Philbin's ability to implement his offense because there are only so many plays, and routes they can run with him in the slot. The defense knows this.

If you have 3 interchangeable WR's on the field you can go hurry up and you can line your WR's up at any of the 3 spots and keep the defense guessing. If you go no huddle with Bess on the field there are only so many routes they have to worry about with him. That makes us easier to defend as a group. For instance, Bess in the slot isn't a danger to go deep so you can use your safeties to help in other areas. Mike Wallace on the other hand is that threat. If you line him up outside for 3 plays in a row and then move him to the slot...the defense has to adjust on the fly. That makes it more likely for them to not all be on the same page and make a mistake.

Mistakes in coverage = big plays.

THAT is why Bess is no longer a Dolphin.

His goal was 90 plays, no team has ever run that many plays. So to me that means he wanted to run more plays then anyone in the NFL, no?
He also has a goal for his WR's to play every spot, from what you say... No different then the 90 play goal, he didnt come close to achieving, no?

I just said Gibson is a question and our slot position is a question.. This shouldnt be a surprise to anyone... And if we dont get production out of the slot position, I expect to see Hartline be moved to that spot... If Gibson isnt great in the slot that doesnt help Philbin's versatility goals...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2013 09:31AM by Crowder52.

Rishard Matthews

jlyell13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rishard Matthews


Yes I agree, I like Mathews a lot, and he seems to fit the bigger target Philbin says he likes out of the slot position...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

steviec13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I mentioned that trading away Bess for absolutely
> nothing was a TERRIBLE move. Most of you agreed
> except for a few Ireland lovers....
>
> Well,,,,first indications from OTAs show that we
> are going to struggle finding a true slot
> receiver...it ain't so easy finding a gem like
> Bess ...you all took him for granted! Including
> you ..."dolphinmark".
>
> Let's see how it all plays out...but I have a
> feeling that we are gonna regret letting Bess go
> for absolutely nothing!!!!!!
>
> Truly dumb move Ireland !!!




I am anything but an Ireland Lover. But I'll give it to at least the 2nd or 3rd preseason game before I declare ANYTHING Terrible.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> There is a difference between predicting you are
> going to do something and setting that same
> something as a goal, no?

I like your style Truth...hahahaha


> Gibson isn't going to just play the slot. That's
> the point. None of them are going to be
> restricted to the slot once the progress to the
> point that they know the playbook and understand
> what a WR is supposed to do in our offense.
>
> As for Gibson, he's been here all of 2 months.
> He's had a handful of OTA sessions. Give him
> time. He'll be fine.
>
> Could turn out that Matthews is the 3rd WR on this
> team anyway.


I agree I think Gibson is better suited outside the slot. I also agree he has only been here 2 months and a few OTA's, hard to tell much at this point. But based on most of his past stats, the guy is a question, and I wouldn't say he will be fine, we have looked long and hard for a #3, and have gone through a long list of signing guys that wound up not being fine....

Based on the fact we had one of the best slot guys in the game and traded him away for versatility concerns, we have a question as to how that position will work out, no matter who plays in it... Philbin talks a lot about studying what we didnt do well and trying to improve on it, and that was what this offseason moves were about. But sometimes when you make moves to improve what you werent good at, you overlook and take for granted that which you were good at... Only time will tell, not ready to write anybody off, just think it is a legitimate concern and shouldn't be blown off or taken as not impactful...
Remember last season you told me Truth, that why Ryan Tannehill wasnt as successful as he could have been was the fact that he didnt have a legitimate 3rd WR. Well we still have that question IMO...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2013 01:02PM by Crowder52.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > There is a difference between predicting you
> are
> > going to do something and setting that same
> > something as a goal, no?
>
> I like your style Truth...hahahaha
>
>
> > Gibson isn't going to just play the slot.
> That's
> > the point. None of them are going to be
> > restricted to the slot once the progress to the
> > point that they know the playbook and
> understand
> > what a WR is supposed to do in our offense.
> >
> > As for Gibson, he's been here all of 2 months.
>
> > He's had a handful of OTA sessions. Give him
> > time. He'll be fine.
> >
> > Could turn out that Matthews is the 3rd WR on
> this
> > team anyway.
>
>
> I agree I think Gibson is better suited outside
> the slot. I also agree he has only been here 2
> months and a few OTA's, hard to tell much at this
> point. But based on most of his past stats, the
> guy is a question, and I wouldn't say he will be
> fine, we have looked long and hard for a #3, and
> have gone through a long list of signing guys that
> wound up not being fine....


Actually, we've been looking for a #1 & #2 for the past few years. Hartline evolved into that #2. Bess was a #3.


Who have we brought in since we signed Bess that was intended to put Bess into the #3 spot he was best suited for? Ernest Wilford? That was 5 years ago.


>
> Based on the fact we had one of the best slot guys
> in the game and traded him away for versatility
> concerns, we have a question as to how that
> position will work out, no matter who plays in
> it...

All moves are risky and unproven until they play the games.

Some are just less so.

> Philbin talks a lot about studying what we
> didnt do well and trying to improve on it, and
> that was what this offseason moves were about. But
> sometimes when you make moves to improve what you
> werent good at, you overlook and take for granted
> that which you were good at... Only time will
> tell, not ready to write anybody off, just think
> it is a legitimate concern and shouldn't be blown
> off or taken as not impactful...
> Remember last season you told me Truth, that why
> Ryan Tannehill wasnt as successful as he could
> have been was the fact that he didnt have a
> legitimate 3rd WR. Well we still have that
> question IMO...


3rd WR. Not #3 WR.

There is a difference.


But as for Gibson, as I said, he'll be fine. I don't expect him to post numbers better than what Bess did. I expect him to post numbers similar to his days in St Louis: 40+ catches, 500+ yards 5 or 6 TD's.

For half of what Bess would have been cap-wise, that's fine. Gibson's biggest impact won't be his numbers or that they surpass what Bess did as the #2. It will be that he opens up the rest of the offense.

Even with Gibson we still need another WR, hopefully Matthews is that guy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2013 07:12PM by THE Truth.

To say that if Gibson doesn't produce you expect to see Hartline in the slot means you aren't getting what Philbin has in mind when it comes to his WR core. Even if Gibson plays well in the slot, you will see Hartline in the slot. You will see them all in all spots.

I get philbins system, I am talking about the slot WR in a formation, a position Bess played primarily. The WR who is not lined up outside... When you watch next year you will see guys produce at the different spots, x, z, y, flanker, slot whatever you want to call the spot or player in the formation... In a 2 WR formation you will see more of a Wallace, Hartline primarily IMO.. When they bring in a 3rd he will either take an outside spot or play the inside slot... If Gibson doesn't play the inside well, Hartline is a proven player on our team that plays the routes from that position in a formation well.. I imagine Wallace can play it as well, but he is more effective against the defense with his speed on the outside making the safety commit.. So that is what you will see a majority of, no matter whatever is said about position versatility in the WR corp...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

When i stop and think about it, Philbin wants to run a fast paced offense. When you have a group of WR's that can bounce around, it facilitates that goal versus having a guy who only plays slot and is useless if placed outside. You can put Mathew's in the slot in a three wide out set and then pop him outside if you go to a two wide out set without waiting for a man to come in of the sideline. I like the style and i think it's going to prove difficult for defenses to adjust to on the fly. I think when you combine that kind of offense which can facilitate blown coverage more often with the addition of the best deep threat in the game, we are going to see a lot more points out of our offense. Which is going to make for one happy Odenn!

The truth,

Bottom line is they took a "proven" commodity in Bess as slot...and got rid of him for someone who is relatively the same price as Bess.

My point was...I am not disagreeing with adding Gibson... If it were me I would of kept Bess for this last season and have him be the #4 or #3....
Makes no sense to make Matthews the number 3 if Bess is better than him...

Bess was still available for this season for a pretty cheap number in my opinion...

Having Bess around, even if he wasn't gonna be used a lot, would be very well added insurance ....that I am certain would of been used.

Odenn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When i stop and think about it, Philbin wants to
> run a fast paced offense. When you have a group of
> WR's that can bounce around, it facilitates that
> goal versus having a guy who only plays slot and
> is useless if placed outside. You can put Mathew's
> in the slot in a three wide out set and then pop
> him outside if you go to a two wide out set
> without waiting for a man to come in of the
> sideline. I like the style and i think it's going
> to prove difficult for defenses to adjust to on
> the fly. I think when you combine that kind of
> offense which can facilitate blown coverage more
> often with the addition of the best deep threat in
> the game, we are going to see a lot more points
> out of our offense. Which is going to make for one
> happy Odenn!



Odenn,

That is precisely why we couldn't run the offense Philbin envisions last year for more than a few possessions a game. We didn't have the personnel.

When you sub out a player the other team gets a chance to sub as well and that blows the whole fast paced thing out of the water.

We are better suited for that offense this year. If Matthews and Binns, or another WR, step up then we can run it a lot.

If they don't then we still need another WR or two.

steviec13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The truth,
>
> Bottom line is they took a "proven" commodity in
> Bess as slot...and got rid of him for someone who
> is relatively the same price as Bess.
>
> My point was...I am not disagreeing with adding
> Gibson... If it were me I would of kept Bess for
> this last season and have him be the #4 or #3....
> Makes no sense to make Matthews the number 3 if
> Bess is better than him...
>
> Bess was still available for this season for a
> pretty cheap number in my opinion...
>
> Having Bess around, even if he wasn't gonna be
> used a lot, would be very well added insurance
> ....that I am certain would of been used.


Stevie,

The bottomline is that Bess time on the field was going to decrease this year with the arrival of Gibson as well as the improvement of Matthews and Binns.

Its not that Bess wasn't a very good slot WR. He was. But that is ALL he was. For Philbin, that isn't enough. He wants versatility in his offense, so that its less predictable.

When Bess was on the field we were far more predictable. There is only one position he can lineup at and there are only certain routes he can run from that spot. Its fairly easy to predict that since Bess made us easier to defend, that he wasn't going to get on the field that much this year now that there were other options on the team. In light of that, the prudent thing to do was trade him.

The truth,

I respectfully disagree with you.

So what you are saying is that the patriots having welker on the field in the slot 95% of the time made them predictable...but yet no one in the league could stop him...

Bess put up his best numbers last year, even though he was "predictable"

I agree that in theory, Bess would be much less used this year...BUT....if one key injury were to occur, we could insert him in for a game or two, with very little drop off...

Again,,,we would be a better team with Bess than without him...

As a coach, if you lineup 4 receiver set,,,you r gonna have 2 slot receivers...would of loved to have seen Bess as that 2nd slot.

I wonder who is gonna be that clutch receiver that catches the 5 yard catch on 3rd down to extend the chains and keep the drive going...

Remember Bess does NOT drop passes... We need someone that can be as dependable...

steviec13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Remember Bess does NOT drop passes... We need
> someone that can be as dependable...


I recall him dropping more than a few last year

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

steviec13 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The truth,
>
> I respectfully disagree with you.
>
> So what you are saying is that the patriots having
> welker on the field in the slot 95% of the time
> made them predictable...but yet no one in the
> league could stop him...


1- No, thats not what I'm saying.

2- The Pats don't run our offense. So what players did or
didn't do in their offense is irrelevant.

3- Devonne Bess isn't even remotely as good as Welker was in his
prime.



>
> Bess put up his best numbers last year, even
> though he was "predictable" .


This isn't Madden'13. Its not just about one players numbers. its about making the whole offense better and more efficient at accomplishing what the coaches want.

Bess had better numbers last year because he was forced to play our #2 WR spot most of the time. His numbers were up because his chances were up. Tannehill threw for 3,300 yards with 2 wr's and half of 1 TE. Those 3 were going to see a bump in their numbers.




>
> I agree that in theory, Bess would be much less
> used this year...BUT....if one key injury were to
> occur, we could insert him in for a game or two,
> with very little drop off...


That's where you are wrong. Or at least where you and Philbin disagree. The way he sees it, the effect of having a one dimensional WR on the field has on the entire offense is far more than a "very little drop off."


>
> Again,,,we would be a better team with Bess than
> without him...

We'll see how it plays out. On paper we are a deeper team with Bess. On the field, I don't think his skill set makes this offense better. I think it slows it down and forces it to be something its not, which is good for Bess because he gets his numbers that way.


>
> As a coach, if you lineup 4 receiver set,,,you r
> gonna have 2 slot receivers...would of loved to
> have seen Bess as that 2nd slot.
>

We are going to be in a 4 WR set very infrequently. Paying a guy $3+M to play 4 or 5 snaps a game makes no sense. Its better to give those snaps to a young guy you are developing for the future, not a guy who is gone in February.




> I wonder who is gonna be that clutch receiver that
> catches the 5 yard catch on 3rd down to extend the
> chains and keep the drive going...


Umm...gee...Hartline's proven to be pretty clutch. Now that he's not going to have to deal with the top CB or double coverage he has a chance to really blossom.

Keller filled that roll with the Jets.

Gibson filled it for St Louis.

Bess isn't nearly as irreplaceable as you believe.

He was a good football player with a limited skill set.

The league is full of guys like that.


>
> Remember Bess does NOT drop passes... We need
> someone that can be as dependable...


Remember, Bess doesn't score TD's. We need guys who get in the endzone or who open up the field for others to do that.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Odenn,
>
> That is precisely why we couldn't run the offense
> Philbin envisions last year for more than a few
> possessions a game. We didn't have the
> personnel.
>
> When you sub out a player the other team gets a
> chance to sub as well and that blows the whole
> fast paced thing out of the water.
>
> We are better suited for that offense this year.
> If Matthews and Binns, or another WR, step up then
> we can run it a lot.
>
> If they don't then we still need another WR or
> two.


I wish you were right, but that is not why we couldnt run the offense Philbin wanted last year... The reason we couldnt run it, was Tannehill was inconsistent. We didnt move the chains very well. Having a fast paced offense that goes 3 and out a lot, is foolish. And that is exactly what happened last year.. So his fast paced predictions was kind of a joke... Our problem wasnt in the rotation of players, our problem was not getting first downs... I said it last year as well, that Philbin wanting to do 90 plays a game with a rookie QB and new team was a farce, and that is exactly what it wound up being... It had nothing to do with Bess and his versatility concerns, sorry that just isn't accurate...

We still only have one blocking TE, and we dont have versatility among our TE corp to block well and catch well.. That is going to create substitutions a lot next year as well... But if we move the chains it will not matter...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Remember, Bess doesn't score TD's. We need guys
> who get in the endzone or who open up the field
> for others to do that.


????? And Hartline does? Bess scored TD's before Tannehill... Hartline never scored TD's, at least Bess had in the past....Tannehill just wasnt very good in the redzone, therefore our WR's didnt score a lot last year... That is not on our WR's that is on the rookie QB, who was overwhelmed by the shortened field and smaller windows to throw in when we were in the redzone..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Odenn,
> >
> > That is precisely why we couldn't run the
> offense
> > Philbin envisions last year for more than a few
> > possessions a game. We didn't have the
> > personnel.
> >
> > When you sub out a player the other team gets a
> > chance to sub as well and that blows the whole
> > fast paced thing out of the water.
> >
> > We are better suited for that offense this year.
>
> > If Matthews and Binns, or another WR, step up
> then
> > we can run it a lot.
> >
> > If they don't then we still need another WR or
> > two.
>
>
> I wish you were right, but that is not why we
> couldnt run the offense Philbin wanted last
> year... The reason we couldnt run it, was
> Tannehill was inconsistent. We didnt move the
> chains very well. Having a fast paced offense that
> goes 3 and out a lot, is foolish. And that is
> exactly what happened last year.. So his fast
> paced predictions was kind of a joke... Our
> problem wasnt in the rotation of players, our
> problem was not getting first downs... I said it
> last year as well, that Philbin wanting to do 90
> plays a game with a rookie QB and new team was a
> farce, and that is exactly what it wound up
> being... It had nothing to do with Bess and his
> versatility concerns, sorry that just isn't
> accurate...
>
> We still only have one blocking TE, and we dont
> have versatility among our TE corp to block well
> and catch well.. That is going to create
> substitutions a lot next year as well... But if we
> move the chains it will not matter...


Well Crowder, you got your wish. I am right. Philbin has even said he didn't have the personnel to run the full offense last year.

Sure, Tannehill's inexperience had something to do with it.

But when your base set is 3 WR, 1 TE and a single RB...and you want to go no huddle with that grouping most of the time...you can't run that offense without a 3rd Wr and a receiving threat at TE.

Now its not Bess fault that we didnt have the pieces to run Philbin's offense the way he envisions. But that doesn't in any way negate the fact that he wasn't one of the pieces we needed to do it.

Truth,


You r completely missing my single most important point...I am not against having Gibson...I am very happy to have him...

I was simply against letting Bess go...
Who the hell cares if Bess plays only 5 snaps a game...
ALso, don't forget he contributes on special teams as well...

I think philbin let him go because when it came down to judging play on the field and setting up the depth chart, Bess may surprise many coaches as usual...he probably would/could end up being the 2nd or 3rd best receiver on the team.
Bess his whole career, has been counted out when the odds are stacked against him....

Again, a really dumb move ,,,just to save a few cap bucks...