Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dolphaholic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 61 receptions for 778 yrds. with 1 TD put's him
> in
> > "Beast mode"......who knew
> >
> > I liked Davone Bess as well, but lets not
> revise
> > history here.
>
>
> His stats over the past 4 years are better then
> Brandon Gibson
>
> Bess only played 13 games last year. WIth his per
> game avg, what is the difference between his stats
> that got him traded, vs Hartline's stats that got
> him signed to a huge new deal....
>
> Stats are not a good way to argue for Bess being
> traded...
> Tannehill was pretty bad getting WR's the ball in
> the red zone.. In fact Bess caught one of the only
> red zone TD's by a WR all of last year..
> Hartline's only 1 TD came from a long run after
> catch... SO blaming Bess for the lack of TD's is
> not really fair either...


Do you consider him a "Beast" then?

I'm sorry, I didn't know this post was about Hartline, I thought it was about how bad of a move trading Davone "The Beast" Bess was......

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nope not a beast, but is Hartline a beast? Because
> we just resigned him to a 30+ million dollar
> "beast" status contract, with pretty similar stats
> to Bess this year based on games played...
>
> Lets do a comparison
> Hartline and Bess both came to our team the same
> year, one a UDFA the other a 4th rd pick...
>
> Hartline 2753 yards and 6 TD's during his tenure
> with the team
>
> Bess 3447 yards and 12 TD's during his tenure...
> Twice as many TD's scored and an extra season
> worth of yards..
>
> I am just saying stats are not a good way to argue
> for Hartline to get paid and Bess to get traded
> especially for what we got for him as far as draft
> picks...


Where did anyone suggest that Hartline was a "beast"?

What does he, or Brandon Gibson have to do with Bess being a "beast" or not being a "beast"?

What would your position of been if they let Hartline walk and extended Bess for 30 mil? Just curious

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Where did anyone suggest that Hartline was a
> "beast"?
>
> What does he, or Brandon Gibson have to do with
> Bess being a "beast" or not being a "beast"?

Ireland said he was a beast with his action of paying him 30+ million deal. From what I understand that is top ten WR money or certainly categorized as Beast money...

Gibson is going to replace him on the field, so comparing a guy with who the GM decided to replace him with is surely a relevant question and comparison to bring up..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dolphaholic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm sorry, I didn't know this post was about
> > Hartline, I thought it was about how bad of a
> move
> > trading Davone "The Beast" Bess was......
>



>
> Well it is a pretty realistic question to ask why
> one player is expendable and traded and another
> worthy of 30+ million...

Its really simple.

There's one fact, and two sets of numbers that justify paying Hartline and parting ways with Bess:

Fact: Hartline posted 1,000 yards last year as a #1 WR. Bess never did that.


6'2/200 and 4.5

VS

5'9 190 and 4.65



> Especially when you use
> the stats of Bess to say why he was expendable...
> Lets just call a spade a spade, Philbin just didnt
> want Bess. Not suggest Bess's number were
> inferior...


Bess is a good player. Very few would argue that.

But its not a new revelation that he isn't a fit for our scheme since he's limited to the slot.

I am ok with Bess being traded, because it was a decision of the coach... I just dont think the stats support as to why he was traded... Philbin wanted a bigger target in the slot, so he didnt like Bess no matter that he had a good year and was on par with Hartline and 1000yards before his injury...
Hartline has more speed and flexibility and therefor more value to Philbin in his system... end of story... only time will tell how smart of a decision it was... They parted ways with Fasano and Bush who put more points on the scoreboard then anyone on our team last year... Lots of bold moves, to early to tell how they will all work out.. It is a changing of the guard and this is what happens...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2013 01:33PM by Crowder52.

6 million a year on a 5 year deal is top ten money for the position.. While it is not top 5 money, it surely is considered beast money IMO... I guess we can argue till the cows come home what the definition of Beast money is as it is a relative definition I suppose... I mean even Wallace doesnt have a big salary this year, but he is paid top 3 money for his contract per year avg..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2013 01:45PM by Crowder52.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am ok with Bess being traded, because it was a
> decision of the coach... I just dont think the
> stats support as to why he was traded... Philbin
> wanted a bigger target in the slot, so he didnt
> like Bess no matter that he had a good year and
> was on par with Hartline and 1000yards before his
> injury...


Its not about having a bigger guy in the slot. Its about having 5-6 wr's who can line up at all three wr positions.

Wr's who are short and slow are limited to only playing the slot.

If we had drafted Tavon Austin (as Ireland said we'd have liked to at #12) he could have lined up outside because his absurd speed makes up for his lack of size.

Bess can't do that effectively day in and day out.

Its not just about being bigger.

Its about being versatile.

Bess is a one trick pony.




> Hartline has more speed and flexibility and
> therefor more value to Philbin in his system...


That's the point. Its about being flexible enough with your skill-set to be used in multiple ways.

Hartline brings that flexibility.

Bess doesn't.


> end of story... only time will tell how smart of a
> decision it was... They parted ways with Fasano
> and Bush who put more points on the scoreboard
> then anyone on our team last year... Lots of bold
> moves, to early to tell how they will all work
> out.. It is a changing of the guard and this is
> what happens...


yup. Only time will tell if the moves were upgrades.

Many good points pro and con however one must put this into perspective. After Wallace, Hartline, and Gibson who do we have that is a proven receiver? Anyone? That is why you don't trade Bess. That is the reason why that was a bad move. Rishard Matthews is unproven, but he does have potential. I say you should of kept both of them just too be on the safe side of the injury front.

I stand corrected I was looking at base salaries avg... and 6 million a year was top ten..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I stand corrected I was looking at base salaries
> avg... and 6 million a year was top ten..


That sounds about right.

Hartline's average base is about 3.65 mill

Bess was let go because he didn't fit the mold of what they needed and he became expendable. It isn't because Hartline produced more or less than he did. You could also, if you put stock in rumors, argue that Bess hurt his own stock with Philbin last year with the whole sitting out the end of the season thing. I choose however to ignore that little tidbit and simply assume it was a football decision. No matter how much fans may have been enamored with Bess, he was a square peg trying to fit in a round hole with this team.

Bess, although a good slot WR, was an absolute terrible fit in this offense. Absolutely terrible.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

He did NOT have a "solid" year last year. He had a solid year in 2010- 2011 vas very bad, last year was a little better than 2011, but not nearly as good as 2010. The guy's age was clearly showing, so with better options at his position (questionable if he would have even made the team this year), trade him while he still has some value. A good move.

Rick

The problem with Bess is this:

He has no room to regress in any area. He is slow, not quick, unable to break tackles, cant get much YAC, but he has great hands.

If he is slowed by anything...(i.e injury) he is almost a dud of a player.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

Catching 60 balls for almost 800 yards in only 13 games, does not really back up the theory that he was a "terrible fit" for this offense....
Terrible fits dont catch 60 balls and 778 yards in a shortened season...
I will bet whatever money that the slot WR this coming year will not have that many yards going into week 13... The guy slotted to replace Bess has never had that many yards in a full season let alone in just 13 games...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Well maybe it also says alot about how putrid our WR core was.

Lets face reality, we have to pass the ball and someone has to catch it.

---------------------

"When you suck long enough, you get a Hickey"

No reason to rag on Bess in order to justify the bargain bin trade. It's done and over with. But it's obvious a bunch of folks (including BNF) don’t like the trade and no matter how you spin the turd it's still a turd.

My recent point is this: in terms of a traditional "pure slot receiver" we’ve definitely DOWNGRADED the position. So that tells me -- at least for the foreseeable future, "slot" is not a specified position in the current system.

I'm also assuming they must believe dudes like Thigpen can function is a quasi slot role when needed -- and otherwise use RB out of the backfield to perform "slot receiver" role (quicks across the middle, ankle busters etc.)

My .02

BNF.

BNF is right. The "slot" receiver isn't even really a position in this system. All receivers will bounce inside and outside constantly. This offensive will be about creating mismatches. We can't push Bess to the outside and expect him to produce at all. Every team would read that he isn't going to get the ball in the situation, because he can't beat a soul running a deep post.

Pat Kirwan of CBSsports.com and Jesse Agler were talking about this the other day. Kirwan thought getting rid of Bess in the slot was a mistake.. He said even last year, he was still one of the top slot WR's in all of football. You aren't going to replace Bess in the slot very easily.. Kirwan pressed Jesse, ok who is gonna replace him and perform at his level. The only guy Jesse came up with that was improvement on Bess in the slot, was Jesse said what about moving Hartline to the slot, which he has played some in the slot... Interesting commentary, Hartline could be an upgrade on Bess in the slot.. Although I think we might see more of Mathews and Gibson in the slot then Hartline but you never know.. And was interestingly enough brought up by an insider in Jesse Agler... not sure if it will happen but interesting concept...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

I also heard Philbin talk about this the other day, which I have heard before from him.. A main part of his style is to have flexibility with how you use all players on offense. He said teams will have charts that say, 87 percent of the time when they go with this player in the line up or this certain player is on the field, they run,etc. So he says when you do things like that, it really gives the opposing defense a huge edge against your offense.. He said we need to have guys who play all 3 downs, so teams cant gain an edge on us, when we bring in players and they know the trend of the play calling with specific lineups.. (paraphrased)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Put a freaking cork in it…

Some of you post like Bess runs a sloppy 5 by 5 forty
has no quicks no moves no chops and basically is a
football retard & was worthless in this high-flying
Philbin Oh poised to set records and redefine the
very essence of Oh
fensive
foot
ball…
Gimme a break.
Bess is a gamer and
guaranteed if he lined up against our D
in a system like the Lady runs in Foxborough
he'd TORCH us for like 175 yards and 3 garden gnomes.

No bullshit. Just BNF!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2013 12:43PM by BigNastyFish.

808phan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would have been nice to see him stay here for
> depth on the roster. I too hope losing him doesn't
> bite us in the ass. The dude is a top shelf slot.
>
> The new philosophy here is character, versatility,
> & speed. Bess was a good guy - great character. If
> he was a little faster he'd be a bit more
> versatile. I have no doubt he'd still be here. As
> much as I don't like the move, I have to trust
> what JP is doing here.
>
> Now what really stunned me is the Pats letting
> Welker go. Their fans must really be sick. I'm
> thrilled that Welker is gone from them. I can't
> help but feel that NE will be a little easier to
> beat this year, plus party boy Gronk falling apart
> and quickly turning into a has-been is an added
> bonus.

************************************************

If Bess wasn't going to be the starter, depth at $2.5M is a little much. I always liked Bess, but he is a guy Miami could afford to let go, especially with all the signings. Unless the guys that are on the roster who have replaced him just plain stink it up, I don't think it is going to affect Miami in that they let Bess go. Evidently, he just didn't fit in anymore, with the new scheme.

The Pats have a history of letting their "older" players go (with the exception of Brady, of course). I'm not predicting the Pats will be falling apart because Brady and Bilichick are still there. They are still the team to beat in the AFCE.

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 808phan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Would have been nice to see him stay here for
> > depth on the roster. I too hope losing him
> doesn't
> > bite us in the ass. The dude is a top shelf
> slot.
> >
> > The new philosophy here is character,
> versatility,
> > & speed. Bess was a good guy - great character.
> If
> > he was a little faster he'd be a bit more
> > versatile. I have no doubt he'd still be here.
> As
> > much as I don't like the move, I have to trust
> > what JP is doing here.
> >
> > Now what really stunned me is the Pats letting
> > Welker go. Their fans must really be sick. I'm
> > thrilled that Welker is gone from them. I can't
> > help but feel that NE will be a little easier
> to
> > beat this year, plus party boy Gronk falling
> apart
> > and quickly turning into a has-been is an added
> > bonus.
>
> ************************************************
>
> If Bess wasn't going to be the starter, depth at
> $2.5M is a little much. I always liked Bess, but
> he is a guy Miami could afford to let go,
> especially with all the signings. Unless the guys
> that are on the roster who have replaced him just
> plain stink it up, I don't think it is going to
> affect Miami in that they let Bess go. Evidently,
> he just didn't fit in anymore, with the new
> scheme.
>
> The Pats have a history of letting their "older"
> players go (with the exception of Brady, of
> course). I'm not predicting the Pats will be
> falling apart because Brady and Bilichick are
> still there. They are still the team to beat in
> the AFCE.

este

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.