TreasurecoastPhinsfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Agree to disagree.

Fair enough.


> He won the first round of a
> post season playoff, something no one here has
> done in decades. 2nd year. Does not stink. Great
> arm ? No. But he can make others around him
> believe. He has a quality you just can't teach.


that was the best game of his career by a country mile, but lets not forget that the Steelers starting FS in that game was sitting at home watching on TV because his genetic disorder puts his life at risk if he spends time at high altitude.

Tebow was 10-for-21 for 316 yards and two TD's.

204 of those yards when to Damaryus Thomas with catches of 80 (TD), 58, 51 and 15 yards.

You take any one of those long balls off the table and Denver loses that game going away. You put Clark in at FS and the chances all 3 of those long balls are completed are very slim.

Of course when he played the next week against an average defense on the road with the wherewithal to take away the deep pass he was 9-26 for 136yds 0-0.

We don't have to agree on this TCPF...no worries there. But right now all 32 GM's and scouting departments in the NFL disagree with you.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He also took over a team that was losing pretty
> bad, what were they 1-4 or so, and all of sudden
> they started winning... And won a play off game
> against the Steelers. IMO, that doesnt just happen
> by accident. If they were such a good team, they
> wouldnt have been 1-4 and if Tebow was so bad,
> they surely wouldnt have done what they did that
> year after he took over... It is hard to dispute
> what he did in 2011...


You are right. It didn't happen by accident.

The Broncos defense, who had given up 28 points per game in that 1-4 start got their act together and gave up a very stingy 12 PPG in the 7 games they won with Tebow as the starter, and Matt prater kicked 3 50+ yard FG's to tie or win games.

SO you think Kyle Orton would have got to the playoffs and won a playoff game that year, had Tebow not replaced him when he was 1-4...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SO you think Kyle Orton would have got to the
> playoffs and won a playoff game that year, had
> Tebow not replaced him when he was 1-4...

Probably. If you just go off the numbers, they averaged 21ppg with orton at the helm and gave up 28 ppg over those 5 games.

He certainly would have won the 7 games Tebow did if the defense only gave up 12ppg. Maybe more. He probably just wouldn't have had to do it in such dramatic fashion.

And don't get me wrong. That's not because Orton is a good QB. He's not. He's just better than Tebow.

I think your argument is a bit off base. Orton had his chance with the same team, went 1-4. Tebow went 7-4, and won a play off game... It was Tebow's 4th QT heroics that were the difference between wins and losses in may of those 8 wins...The kickers doesnt have a shot to win if Tebows doesnt get the offense in range.. The team believed in him because he won. He made the team believe they could win, something Orton was not capable of.. Tebow had the eye of the tiger in the most crucial times, something Orton never had or he wouldn't have gone 1-4.. Tebow won games... TO argue that Orton would have turned the team around and beat Pittsburg, as Tebow , had they not pulled him is preposterous..

In 2011, The Denver defense ranked 24th, allowing 390 points. The team ranked 26 in give away take way at -12

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2013 04:40PM by Crowder52.

Crowder52 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think your argument is a bit off base. Orton had
> his chance with the same team, went 1-4. Tebow
> went 7-4, and won a play off game... It was
> Tebow's 4th QT heroics that were the difference
> between wins and losses in may of those 8
> wins...The kickers doesnt have a shot to win if
> Tebows doesnt get the offense in range.. The team
> believed in him because he won. He made the team
> believe they could win, something Orton was not
> capable of.. Tebow had the eye of the tiger in the
> most crucial times, something Orton never had or
> he wouldn't have gone 1-4.. Tebow won games... TO
> argue that Orton would have turned the team around
> and beat Pittsburg, as Tebow , had they not
> pulled him is preposterous..
>
> In 2011, The Denver defense ranked 24th, allowing
> 390 points. The team ranked 26 in give away take
> way at -12



I wasn't really arguing that he'd have won a playoff game. I really don't know.

But the facts are the facts. The Defense gave up 28ppg while orton was at QB and he could only muster 21ppg over that span.

In the games Tebow won, the defense gave up 12 ppg. If they had the same performance with Orton at the helm those 4th quarter heroics wouldn't have been necessary nearly as often if at all, no to mention he probably wouldn't have lost to KC 7-3.

We can argue all day over this but neither can prove or disprove something that didn't happen. Its trying to prove a negative. I can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt Orton would have won those games, but the numbers certainly support my opinion,even if you don't want to buy into it.

You guys can keep on propping Tebow up all you want, but if he was really any good he'd still be in Denver, or NY, or he'd be in one of the 30 other NFL cities fighting for a starting job. But he isn't...is he?

Instead, he's sitting around hoping somebody will give him a shot at TE, or FB, or as their designated clipboard carrier so he doesn't have to go to Canada and beg for a job.

Forget all of the other 30 teams Truth, just look to the northern part of the state for the answer. A city where he is a worshipped god, with a QB battle between Chad Henne and Blaine Gabbert that is raging on, also a team with less than stellar home attendence.....and they have no interest? Should tell you all you need to know.......HE SUCKS!

Tebow might be better than our current QB. Ireland can't take that chance.

------------------------------------------------------------

Miami Dolphins. Always Perfect.

dolphaholic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forget all of the other 30 teams Truth, just look
> to the northern part of the state for the answer.
> A city where he is a worshipped god, with a QB
> battle between Chad Henne and Blaine Gabbert that
> is raging on, also a team with less than stellar
> home attendence.....and they have no interest?
> Should tell you all you need to know.......HE
> SUCKS!

Shows they have lost faith in him for whatever reason. It also shows they do not want to commit to his style of play. But he most certainly does not suck. He has won everywhere he has started. That's a fact jack.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

Treasurecoast..........Quote...........and thats based on what? No name calling now Sam.


treasure we can have a conversation like adults that we are...I got nothing agianst you....

Based on what ive read and what most of the people are saying.

And they even were saying last year he stunk at practice.

Ive always said if you do not practice well....how in the world are you going to translate it to the game...

treasure IMHO it all starts at practice.

LMAO Bignasty you crazy hahahahahaha

DolfanKing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tebow might be better than our current QB.
> Ireland can't take that chance.

*snore*

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crowder52 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SO you think Kyle Orton would have got to the
> > playoffs and won a playoff game that year, had
> > Tebow not replaced him when he was 1-4...
>
> Probably. If you just go off the numbers, they
> averaged 21ppg with orton at the helm and gave up
> 28 ppg over those 5 games.
>
> He certainly would have won the 7 games Tebow did
> if the defense only gave up 12ppg. Maybe more.
> He probably just wouldn't have had to do it in
> such dramatic fashion.
>
> And don't get me wrong. That's not because Orton
> is a good QB. He's not. He's just better than
> Tebow.

************************************************

I can't agree with ya, Truth.

True, the defense did finally come around and started playing up to their capabilities. True, they were a major part in Denver's success. True, their FG kicker bailed them out on occasions. But....

What was the difference in the first 5 games vs the rest of the season? Tebow! We can all agree he is not your classic QB, one that the NFL covets. He has problems with his throwing motion, which in turn leads to poor throws. But....

The guy has the "it" factor; he just has something in him that make his teammates want to follow him. He gave the team that "spark" they needed to turn their fortunes around. As an example....Von Miller couldn't praise Tebow enough for what he did for the Denver Broncos.

It is a fact that some players (QBs mostly) just uplift the team when they enter the game; they have a renewed enthusiasm that they can get the job done. Tebow gave them that, not with his great skills as a QB, but the "it" that he brought to the field. They believed that no matter what, they could win the game behind Tebow.

I can guarantee you that they didn't have this belief based on his QB skills; it was based on "him."

The Jaguars are presently getting ripped in some quarters for their immediate announcement that they are not interested in Tebow. If everything played out the way it did in Denver (and earlier in his career) the stadium would fill up and Tebow could (once again) provide that spark the Jags are missing. He could (once again) get his teammates believing.

I'm not saying that NFL teams should be jumping at the chance to grab Tebow; I am saying that teams that have been in the dumps for quite a while, or who do not have an established QB, should bring him in and give him a shot. Can it honestly hurt to do so? I don't think so.

Orton could not have done what Tebow did; they would have ended up with a losing season if he remained the starter.

And there you have my take on it.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DolfanKing Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Tebow might be better than our current QB.
> > Ireland can't take that chance.
>
> *snore*


LOL berk....

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Crowder52 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think your argument is a bit off base. Orton
> had
> > his chance with the same team, went 1-4. Tebow
> > went 7-4, and won a play off game... It was
> > Tebow's 4th QT heroics that were the difference
> > between wins and losses in may of those 8
> > wins...The kickers doesnt have a shot to win if
> > Tebows doesnt get the offense in range.. The
> team
> > believed in him because he won. He made the
> team
> > believe they could win, something Orton was not
> > capable of.. Tebow had the eye of the tiger in
> the
> > most crucial times, something Orton never had
> or
> > he wouldn't have gone 1-4.. Tebow won games...
> TO
> > argue that Orton would have turned the team
> around
> > and beat Pittsburg, as Tebow , had they not
> > pulled him is preposterous..
> >
> > In 2011, The Denver defense ranked 24th,
> allowing
> > 390 points. The team ranked 26 in give away
> take
> > way at -12
>
>
>
> I wasn't really arguing that he'd have won a
> playoff game. I really don't know.
>
> But the facts are the facts. The Defense gave up
> 28ppg while orton was at QB and he could only
> muster 21ppg over that span.
>
> In the games Tebow won, the defense gave up 12
> ppg. If they had the same performance with Orton
> at the helm those 4th quarter heroics wouldn't
> have been necessary nearly as often if at all, no
> to mention he probably wouldn't have lost to KC
> 7-3.
>
> We can argue all day over this but neither can
> prove or disprove something that didn't happen.
> Its trying to prove a negative. I can't prove
> beyond a shadow of a doubt Orton would have won
> those games, but the numbers certainly support my
> opinion,even if you don't want to buy into it.
>
> You guys can keep on propping Tebow up all you
> want, but if he was really any good he'd still be
> in Denver, or NY, or he'd be in one of the 30
> other NFL cities fighting for a starting job. But
> he isn't...is he?
>
> Instead, he's sitting around hoping somebody will
> give him a shot at TE, or FB, or as their
> designated clipboard carrier so he doesn't have to
> go to Canada and beg for a job.

***************************************

Well, I "thought" I was done with this subject.

Truth, no one is saying Tebow is really good; what we are saying or at least what I am saying,is that he brought something to the Broncos that Orton could not. Again, the "it" factor. Some people have it, some don't. Tebow has it; always has.

As you said in your above post, none of us knows what could have happened, or couldn't have happened. But, let me ask you this: based on what he has done throughout his football career, with the Jets in a tailspin the way they were at the end of last season, don't you think Tebow and his "it" could have made a difference in the Jets' fortunes? Again, we will never know, but as you did in your post, I am basing my prediction that he could have by his long football career. He consistently did it, no matter where he was.

BTW, seeing Tebow's personality, I highly doubt he will go anywhere to "beg" for a job; that's just not him. He will fight for one, but not beg.

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Treasurecoast..........Quote...........and thats
> based on what? No name calling now Sam.
>
>
> treasure we can have a conversation like adults
> that we are...I got nothing agianst you....
>
> Based on what ive read and what most of the people
> are saying.
>
> And they even were saying last year he stunk at
> practice.
>
> Ive always said if you do not practice well....how
> in the world are you going to translate it to the
> game...
>
> treasure IMHO it all starts at practice.

************************************************

That's what is being reported -- Tebow is not a good practice player.

However, that had no relevance while he was in Denver.

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Crowder52 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > SO you think Kyle Orton would have got to the
> > > playoffs and won a playoff game that year,
> had
> > > Tebow not replaced him when he was 1-4...
> >
> > Probably. If you just go off the numbers,
> they
> > averaged 21ppg with orton at the helm and gave
> up
> > 28 ppg over those 5 games.
> >
> > He certainly would have won the 7 games Tebow
> did
> > if the defense only gave up 12ppg. Maybe more.
>
> > He probably just wouldn't have had to do it in
> > such dramatic fashion.
> >
> > And don't get me wrong. That's not because
> Orton
> > is a good QB. He's not. He's just better
> than
> > Tebow.
>
> ************************************************
>
> I can't agree with ya, Truth.
>
> True, the defense did finally come around and
> started playing up to their capabilities. True,
> they were a major part in Denver's success. True,
> their FG kicker bailed them out on occasions.
> But....
>
> What was the difference in the first 5 games vs
> the rest of the season? Tebow!

Sorry Cap. But I'm not buying it.

Denver averaged scoring 18.5 ppg over Tebow's 11 starts. They averaged 21 with Orton at the helm in their 1-5 start.

The difference in the last 11 games wasn't Tebow. It was their defense holding opponents to 12ppg in the 7 games he won. Unless you want to somehow give him credit for the defense cutting its points allowed by almost 250% in those games?

The single worst thing that ever happened to Tebow was when he was picked in the first round. If he'd bee a 4th or 5th round pick they could have cut him in camp and he could have gone to Canada and perhaps improved enough to play in the NFL.

That's not a knock on him. He's a terrific kid, and he may be the best college player of all time. But that doesn't change the fact that he's not very good on Sunday's.

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Crowder52 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I think your argument is a bit off base.
> Orton
> > had
> > > his chance with the same team, went 1-4.
> Tebow
> > > went 7-4, and won a play off game... It was
> > > Tebow's 4th QT heroics that were the
> difference
> > > between wins and losses in may of those 8
> > > wins...The kickers doesnt have a shot to win
> if
> > > Tebows doesnt get the offense in range.. The
> > team
> > > believed in him because he won. He made the
> > team
> > > believe they could win, something Orton was
> not
> > > capable of.. Tebow had the eye of the tiger
> in
> > the
> > > most crucial times, something Orton never had
> > or
> > > he wouldn't have gone 1-4.. Tebow won
> games...
> > TO
> > > argue that Orton would have turned the team
> > around
> > > and beat Pittsburg, as Tebow , had they not
> > > pulled him is preposterous..
> > >
> > > In 2011, The Denver defense ranked 24th,
> > allowing
> > > 390 points. The team ranked 26 in give away
> > take
> > > way at -12
> >
> >
> >
> > I wasn't really arguing that he'd have won a
> > playoff game. I really don't know.
> >
> > But the facts are the facts. The Defense gave
> up
> > 28ppg while orton was at QB and he could only
> > muster 21ppg over that span.
> >
> > In the games Tebow won, the defense gave up 12
> > ppg. If they had the same performance with
> Orton
> > at the helm those 4th quarter heroics wouldn't
> > have been necessary nearly as often if at all,
> no
> > to mention he probably wouldn't have lost to KC
> > 7-3.
> >
> > We can argue all day over this but neither can
> > prove or disprove something that didn't happen.
>
> > Its trying to prove a negative. I can't prove
> > beyond a shadow of a doubt Orton would have won
> > those games, but the numbers certainly support
> my
> > opinion,even if you don't want to buy into it.
> >
> > You guys can keep on propping Tebow up all you
> > want, but if he was really any good he'd still
> be
> > in Denver, or NY, or he'd be in one of the 30
> > other NFL cities fighting for a starting job.
> But
> > he isn't...is he?
> >
> > Instead, he's sitting around hoping somebody
> will
> > give him a shot at TE, or FB, or as their
> > designated clipboard carrier so he doesn't have
> to
> > go to Canada and beg for a job.
>
> ***************************************
>
> Well, I "thought" I was done with this subject.
>
>
> Truth, no one is saying Tebow is really good; what
> we are saying or at least what I am saying,is that
> he brought something to the Broncos that Orton
> could not. Again, the "it" factor. Some people
> have it, some don't. Tebow has it; always has.


So you do want to give him credit for the defense improving that much?

because he didn't improve their offensive output. He made it worse.


If Denver's defense played as well as it did the last 11 games during the first 5, Tebow never gets off the bench.



>
> As you said in your above post, none of us knows
> what could have happened, or couldn't have
> happened. But, let me ask you this: based on
> what he has done throughout his football career,
> with the Jets in a tailspin the way they were at
> the end of last season, don't you think Tebow and
> his "it" could have made a difference in the Jets'
> fortunes? Again, we will never know, but as you
> did in your post, I am basing my prediction that
> he could have by his long football career. He
> consistently did it, no matter where he was.


no. Tebow would have been an epic failure/disaster in NY. they didn't have the WR's to get deep that Denver did. if you are going to rely on a QB who can only make 1 or 2 plays a game then you need guys who can give him multiple chances at that.

The Jets didn't have them.



>
> BTW, seeing Tebow's personality, I highly doubt he
> will go anywhere to "beg" for a job; that's just
> not him. He will fight for one, but not beg.


has to get invited to a camp. That's where the begging comes in.

once he's there he either earns it or not.

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> samsam3738 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Treasurecoast..........Quote...........and
> thats
> > based on what? No name calling now Sam.
> >
> >
> > treasure we can have a conversation like adults
> > that we are...I got nothing agianst you....
> >
> > Based on what ive read and what most of the
> people
> > are saying.
> >
> > And they even were saying last year he stunk at
> > practice.
> >
> > Ive always said if you do not practice
> well....how
> > in the world are you going to translate it to
> the
> > game...
> >
> > treasure IMHO it all starts at practice.
>
> ************************************************
>
> That's what is being reported -- Tebow is not a
> good practice player.
>
> However, that had no relevance while he was in
> Denver.


Cap, he completed 47% of his passes in Denver.

he wasn't a good game player either.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> captkoi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > THE Truth Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Crowder52 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > SO you think Kyle Orton would have got to
> the
> > > > playoffs and won a playoff game that year,
> > had
> > > > Tebow not replaced him when he was 1-4...
> > >
> > > Probably. If you just go off the numbers,
> > they
> > > averaged 21ppg with orton at the helm and
> gave
> > up
> > > 28 ppg over those 5 games.
> > >
> > > He certainly would have won the 7 games Tebow
> > did
> > > if the defense only gave up 12ppg. Maybe
> more.
> >
> > > He probably just wouldn't have had to do it
> in
> > > such dramatic fashion.
> > >
> > > And don't get me wrong. That's not because
> > Orton
> > > is a good QB. He's not. He's just better
> > than
> > > Tebow.
> >
> >
> ************************************************
> >
> > I can't agree with ya, Truth.
> >
> > True, the defense did finally come around and
> > started playing up to their capabilities.
> True,
> > they were a major part in Denver's success.
> True,
> > their FG kicker bailed them out on occasions.
> > But....
> >
> > What was the difference in the first 5 games vs
> > the rest of the season? Tebow!
>
> Sorry Cap. But I'm not buying it.
>
> Denver averaged scoring 18.5 ppg over Tebow's 11
> starts. They averaged 21 with Orton at the helm
> in their 1-5 start.
>
> The difference in the last 11 games wasn't Tebow.
> It was their defense holding opponents to 12ppg in
> the 7 games he won. Unless you want to somehow
> give him credit for the defense cutting its points
> allowed by almost 250% in those games?
>
> The single worst thing that ever happened to Tebow
> was when he was picked in the first round. If
> he'd bee a 4th or 5th round pick they could have
> cut him in camp and he could have gone to Canada
> and perhaps improved enough to play in the NFL.
>
> That's not a knock on him. He's a terrific kid,
> and he may be the best college player of all time.
> But that doesn't change the fact that he's not
> very good on Sunday's.

***********************************************

There was a lot more to what I said in my post, however....

Stats don't always tell the story, and you are well aware of that.

You, or anyone else, can use those stats about the Broncos until you are blue in the face, and I am not going to buy it. Why? The stat that counts is the record before Tebow and after Tebow.

I gave the example of Von Miller and his comments concerning what Tebow did for the team. He is on the defense, in case anyone forgot.

Sure, looking at the stats, it would seem like Tebow had nothing to do with Denver's turnaround; but in this particular case, one has to look at the human side of it. Tebow didn't directly lead the offense nor the defense to the turnaround; his presence on the field, however, did.

If you wish to stick with the stats to back up your claim, that's fine, but I am looking at it in a difference manner.

so to recap:

Tebow can be a good NFL QB but:
(1) you need to redifine your entire offense around him (i.e., run the option, which is the opposite of today's NFL); and
(2) ignore his horrible stats because of his "IT" factor that will drive the team down the field in the last second to eek out a 16-14 win on a 60 yard FG as time expires.

No thanks.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > captkoi Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > THE Truth Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Crowder52 Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > SO you think Kyle Orton would have got to
> > the
> > > > > playoffs and won a playoff game that
> year,
> > > had
> > > > > Tebow not replaced him when he was 1-4...
> > > >
> > > > Probably. If you just go off the numbers,
> > > they
> > > > averaged 21ppg with orton at the helm and
> > gave
> > > up
> > > > 28 ppg over those 5 games.
> > > >
> > > > He certainly would have won the 7 games
> Tebow
> > > did
> > > > if the defense only gave up 12ppg. Maybe
> > more.
> > >
> > > > He probably just wouldn't have had to do it
> > in
> > > > such dramatic fashion.
> > > >
> > > > And don't get me wrong. That's not
> because
> > > Orton
> > > > is a good QB. He's not. He's just
> better
> > > than
> > > > Tebow.
> > >
> > >
> >
> ************************************************
> > >
> > > I can't agree with ya, Truth.
> > >
> > > True, the defense did finally come around and
> > > started playing up to their capabilities.
> > True,
> > > they were a major part in Denver's success.
> > True,
> > > their FG kicker bailed them out on occasions.
> > > But....
> > >
> > > What was the difference in the first 5 games
> vs
> > > the rest of the season? Tebow!
> >
> > Sorry Cap. But I'm not buying it.
> >
> > Denver averaged scoring 18.5 ppg over Tebow's
> 11
> > starts. They averaged 21 with Orton at the
> helm
> > in their 1-5 start.
> >
> > The difference in the last 11 games wasn't
> Tebow.
> > It was their defense holding opponents to 12ppg
> in
> > the 7 games he won. Unless you want to somehow
> > give him credit for the defense cutting its
> points
> > allowed by almost 250% in those games?
> >
> > The single worst thing that ever happened to
> Tebow
> > was when he was picked in the first round.
> If
> > he'd bee a 4th or 5th round pick they could
> have
> > cut him in camp and he could have gone to
> Canada
> > and perhaps improved enough to play in the NFL.
> >
> > That's not a knock on him. He's a terrific
> kid,
> > and he may be the best college player of all
> time.
> > But that doesn't change the fact that he's not
> > very good on Sunday's.
>
> ***********************************************
>
> There was a lot more to what I said in my post,
> however....
>
> Stats don't always tell the story, and you are
> well aware of that.
>
> You, or anyone else, can use those stats about the
> Broncos until you are blue in the face, and I am
> not going to buy it. Why? The stat that counts
> is the record before Tebow and after Tebow.


Sure, but that's the ONLY stat that even lends credence to your position.

Even so, its a team sport CAP. If you want to give credit to Tebow for the defense getting its act together, then so be it.

It doesn't make any sense to me and never will. I know what I saw, and what his numbers say. I'm not willing to give him ALL the credit for their 7 -4 record with him at QB but apparently you guys are. I get that, because with out that 7-4 number to hang your hat on you have nothing to support the opinion that he doesn't stink.


just to flesh out the argument a bit...Peyton Manning was 3-13 as a rookie. But you could look at the numbers and see that he was better than that and the W-L record was more a product of the team play.

The same is true with Tebow, but in reverse.






>
> I gave the example of Von Miller and his comments
> concerning what Tebow did for the team. He is on
> the defense, in case anyone forgot.


nobody is saying the kid isn't a natural leader. he is.

But that doesn't mean he's a good QB.

ray Lewis was an all time great team leader on a football field.

He couldn't play QB either.


>
> Sure, looking at the stats, it would seem like
> Tebow had nothing to do with Denver's turnaround;
> but in this particular case, one has to look at
> the human side of it. Tebow didn't directly lead
> the offense nor the defense to the turnaround; his
> presence on the field, however, did.



>
> If you wish to stick with the stats to back up
> your claim, that's fine, but I am looking at it in
> a difference manner.



That's cool. Its like arguing whether God exists or not. How can I possibly disprove something that someone takes as fact based on faith.

Can't be done.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> captkoi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > THE Truth Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Crowder52 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > I think your argument is a bit off base.
> > Orton
> > > had
> > > > his chance with the same team, went 1-4.
> > Tebow
> > > > went 7-4, and won a play off game... It was
> > > > Tebow's 4th QT heroics that were the
> > difference
> > > > between wins and losses in may of those 8
> > > > wins...The kickers doesnt have a shot to
> win
> > if
> > > > Tebows doesnt get the offense in range..
> The
> > > team
> > > > believed in him because he won. He made the
> > > team
> > > > believe they could win, something Orton was
> > not
> > > > capable of.. Tebow had the eye of the tiger
> > in
> > > the
> > > > most crucial times, something Orton never
> had
> > > or
> > > > he wouldn't have gone 1-4.. Tebow won
> > games...
> > > TO
> > > > argue that Orton would have turned the team
> > > around
> > > > and beat Pittsburg, as Tebow , had they
> not
> > > > pulled him is preposterous..
> > > >
> > > > In 2011, The Denver defense ranked 24th,
> > > allowing
> > > > 390 points. The team ranked 26 in give away
> > > take
> > > > way at -12
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I wasn't really arguing that he'd have won a
> > > playoff game. I really don't know.
> > >
> > > But the facts are the facts. The Defense
> gave
> > up
> > > 28ppg while orton was at QB and he could only
> > > muster 21ppg over that span.
> > >
> > > In the games Tebow won, the defense gave up
> 12
> > > ppg. If they had the same performance with
> > Orton
> > > at the helm those 4th quarter heroics
> wouldn't
> > > have been necessary nearly as often if at
> all,
> > no
> > > to mention he probably wouldn't have lost to
> KC
> > > 7-3.
> > >
> > > We can argue all day over this but neither
> can
> > > prove or disprove something that didn't
> happen.
> >
> > > Its trying to prove a negative. I can't
> prove
> > > beyond a shadow of a doubt Orton would have
> won
> > > those games, but the numbers certainly
> support
> > my
> > > opinion,even if you don't want to buy into
> it.
> > >
> > > You guys can keep on propping Tebow up all
> you
> > > want, but if he was really any good he'd
> still
> > be
> > > in Denver, or NY, or he'd be in one of the 30
> > > other NFL cities fighting for a starting job.
>
> > But
> > > he isn't...is he?
> > >
> > > Instead, he's sitting around hoping somebody
> > will
> > > give him a shot at TE, or FB, or as their
> > > designated clipboard carrier so he doesn't
> have
> > to
> > > go to Canada and beg for a job.
> >
> > ***************************************
> >
> > Well, I "thought" I was done with this subject.
> >
> >
> > Truth, no one is saying Tebow is really good;
> what
> > we are saying or at least what I am saying,is
> that
> > he brought something to the Broncos that Orton
> > could not. Again, the "it" factor. Some
> people
> > have it, some don't. Tebow has it; always has.
>
>
>
> So you do want to give him credit for the defense
> improving that much?
>
> because he didn't improve their offensive output.
> He made it worse.
>
>
> If Denver's defense played as well as it did the
> last 11 games during the first 5, Tebow never gets
> off the bench.
>
>
>
> >
> > As you said in your above post, none of us
> knows
> > what could have happened, or couldn't have
> > happened. But, let me ask you this: based on
> > what he has done throughout his football
> career,
> > with the Jets in a tailspin the way they were
> at
> > the end of last season, don't you think Tebow
> and
> > his "it" could have made a difference in the
> Jets'
> > fortunes? Again, we will never know, but as
> you
> > did in your post, I am basing my prediction
> that
> > he could have by his long football career. He
> > consistently did it, no matter where he was.
>
>
> no. Tebow would have been an epic
> failure/disaster in NY. they didn't have the
> WR's to get deep that Denver did. if you are
> going to rely on a QB who can only make 1 or 2
> plays a game then you need guys who can give him
> multiple chances at that.
>
> The Jets didn't have them.
>
>
>
> >
> > BTW, seeing Tebow's personality, I highly doubt
> he
> > will go anywhere to "beg" for a job; that's
> just
> > not him. He will fight for one, but not beg.
>
>
> has to get invited to a camp. That's where the
> begging comes in.
>
> once he's there he either earns it or not.

*****************************************************

I am giving him credit for the defense improving because he brought something (a spark) to the field that the whole team did not have. Whatever "it" is that he has, the team perked up and started balling.

Am I saying they could not have done it without Tebow? No, but the way things worked out, that's what happened. You used stats in your earlier argument....1-4 without Tebow; 7-4 and a playoff win with Tebow. Those are some telling stats.

You are also 100 percent correct that he (probably) wouldn't have gotten off the bench if the team had played the first four games like they did the last eleven. But, that is neither here nor there.

Based on what Tebow has done his whole career, how can you say he would have been an epic failure with the Jets? I hear ya about the Jets' receiving corp, but that in itself doesn't mean he would have failed. But again, we will never know.

Once again, you are correct - he has to get invited to camp, but I still don't see Tebow begging (maybe his agent, but not Tebow). And yes, once in camp, he has to earn it, just like everyone else.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> captkoi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > samsam3738 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Treasurecoast..........Quote...........and
> > thats
> > > based on what? No name calling now Sam.
> > >
> > >
> > > treasure we can have a conversation like
> adults
> > > that we are...I got nothing agianst you....
> > >
> > > Based on what ive read and what most of the
> > people
> > > are saying.
> > >
> > > And they even were saying last year he stunk
> at
> > > practice.
> > >
> > > Ive always said if you do not practice
> > well....how
> > > in the world are you going to translate it to
> > the
> > > game...
> > >
> > > treasure IMHO it all starts at practice.
> >
> >
> ************************************************
> >
> > That's what is being reported -- Tebow is not a
> > good practice player.
> >
> > However, that had no relevance while he was in
> > Denver.
>
>
> Cap, he completed 47% of his passes in Denver.
>
> he wasn't a good game player either.

*************************************************

They won, that's all that matters, and he was at the helm.

what would our offense look like with Tebow running it? Scary thought. Not in a good way either.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> captkoi Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > THE Truth Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > captkoi Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > THE Truth Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > Crowder52 Wrote:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----
> > > > > > SO you think Kyle Orton would have got
> to
> > > the
> > > > > > playoffs and won a playoff game that
> > year,
> > > > had
> > > > > > Tebow not replaced him when he was
> 1-4...
> > > > >
> > > > > Probably. If you just go off the
> numbers,
> > > > they
> > > > > averaged 21ppg with orton at the helm and
> > > gave
> > > > up
> > > > > 28 ppg over those 5 games.
> > > > >
> > > > > He certainly would have won the 7 games
> > Tebow
> > > > did
> > > > > if the defense only gave up 12ppg.
> Maybe
> > > more.
> > > >
> > > > > He probably just wouldn't have had to do
> it
> > > in
> > > > > such dramatic fashion.
> > > > >
> > > > > And don't get me wrong. That's not
> > because
> > > > Orton
> > > > > is a good QB. He's not. He's just
> > better
> > > > than
> > > > > Tebow.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> ************************************************
> > > >
> > > > I can't agree with ya, Truth.
> > > >
> > > > True, the defense did finally come around
> and
> > > > started playing up to their capabilities.
> > > True,
> > > > they were a major part in Denver's success.
>
> > > True,
> > > > their FG kicker bailed them out on
> occasions.
> > > > But....
> > > >
> > > > What was the difference in the first 5
> games
> > vs
> > > > the rest of the season? Tebow!
> > >
> > > Sorry Cap. But I'm not buying it.
> > >
> > > Denver averaged scoring 18.5 ppg over
> Tebow's
> > 11
> > > starts. They averaged 21 with Orton at the
> > helm
> > > in their 1-5 start.
> > >
> > > The difference in the last 11 games wasn't
> > Tebow.
> > > It was their defense holding opponents to
> 12ppg
> > in
> > > the 7 games he won. Unless you want to
> somehow
> > > give him credit for the defense cutting its
> > points
> > > allowed by almost 250% in those games?
> > >
> > > The single worst thing that ever happened to
> > Tebow
> > > was when he was picked in the first round.
> > If
> > > he'd bee a 4th or 5th round pick they could
> > have
> > > cut him in camp and he could have gone to
> > Canada
> > > and perhaps improved enough to play in the
> NFL.
> > >
> > > That's not a knock on him. He's a terrific
> > kid,
> > > and he may be the best college player of all
> > time.
> > > But that doesn't change the fact that he's
> not
> > > very good on Sunday's.
> >
> > ***********************************************
> >
> > There was a lot more to what I said in my post,
> > however....
> >
> > Stats don't always tell the story, and you are
> > well aware of that.
> >
> > You, or anyone else, can use those stats about
> the
> > Broncos until you are blue in the face, and I
> am
> > not going to buy it. Why? The stat that
> counts
> > is the record before Tebow and after Tebow.
>
>
> Sure, but that's the ONLY stat that even lends
> credence to your position.
>
> Even so, its a team sport CAP. If you want to
> give credit to Tebow for the defense getting its
> act together, then so be it.
>
> It doesn't make any sense to me and never will. I
> know what I saw, and what his numbers say. I'm
> not willing to give him ALL the credit for their 7
> -4 record with him at QB but apparently you guys
> are. I get that, because with out that 7-4 number
> to hang your hat on you have nothing to support
> the opinion that he doesn't stink.
>
>
> just to flesh out the argument a bit...Peyton
> Manning was 3-13 as a rookie. But you could look
> at the numbers and see that he was better than
> that and the W-L record was more a product of the
> team play.
>
> The same is true with Tebow, but in reverse.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > I gave the example of Von Miller and his
> comments
> > concerning what Tebow did for the team. He is
> on
> > the defense, in case anyone forgot.
>
>
> nobody is saying the kid isn't a natural leader.
> he is.
>
> But that doesn't mean he's a good QB.
>
> ray Lewis was an all time great team leader on a
> football field.
>
> He couldn't play QB either.
>
>
> >
> > Sure, looking at the stats, it would seem like
> > Tebow had nothing to do with Denver's
> turnaround;
> > but in this particular case, one has to look at
> > the human side of it. Tebow didn't directly
> lead
> > the offense nor the defense to the turnaround;
> his
> > presence on the field, however, did.
>
>
>
> >
> > If you wish to stick with the stats to back up
> > your claim, that's fine, but I am looking at it
> in
> > a difference manner.
>
>
>
> That's cool. Its like arguing whether God exists
> or not. How can I possibly disprove something
> that someone takes as fact based on faith.
>
> Can't be done.


***************************************

Ya know, I've forgotten what the original thread was about.

I don't think I ever claimed he was a "good QB." I was just pointing out a few things of what he brought to the Denver Broncos.

Would I want him on my team? Only if I wasn't putting any fannies in the stands and I had no real QB on my roster. Otherwise, no, I would not want him on my team.

What I am also saying is that there are teams out there that could use a guy like Tebow (Jax). The majority of the NFL is scared to death of him because they consider him a "polarizing figure." There are teams out there that could use him, but refuse to even give him a look-see.

Anyway, my best to Tebow and his future, whatever it may be.

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> THE Truth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > captkoi Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > samsam3738 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Treasurecoast..........Quote...........and
> > > thats
> > > > based on what? No name calling now Sam.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > treasure we can have a conversation like
> > adults
> > > > that we are...I got nothing agianst you....
> > > >
> > > > Based on what ive read and what most of the
> > > people
> > > > are saying.
> > > >
> > > > And they even were saying last year he
> stunk
> > at
> > > > practice.
> > > >
> > > > Ive always said if you do not practice
> > > well....how
> > > > in the world are you going to translate it
> to
> > > the
> > > > game...
> > > >
> > > > treasure IMHO it all starts at practice.
> > >
> > >
> >
> ************************************************
> > >
> > > That's what is being reported -- Tebow is not
> a
> > > good practice player.
> > >
> > > However, that had no relevance while he was
> in
> > > Denver.
> >
> >
> > Cap, he completed 47% of his passes in Denver.
> >
> > he wasn't a good game player either.
>
> *************************************************
>
> They won, that's all that matters, and he was at
> the helm.


Only if that's all you have to support an argument.

Let's look at this from another perspective:

Orton, is a player I presume who we can all agree is at best an average QB.

He was 1-4 to start that season with a team giving up 28ppg. Thats a .200 winning %.

Tebow was 7-4...or a .636 winning %.

Be fore he ended up in Denver as part of the Jay Cutler deal, Orton was 21-12 over 3 years playing with a defense not giving up 28 ppg. That's also a .636 winning %.

Clearly, Orton was capable of winning just as much as tebow did (even more when you consider he did it over 3 years) when his defense isn't giving up 4 TD's a game.

Frankly, the idea that Orton wasn't capable of doing what Tebow did, if the defense played the same way, is absurd.

But if you are going to give credit for the defense and the special teams playing out their ass for 8 of those 11 games to Tebow and not the coaches, or the Defense, or the Kicker, then how can I possibly prove that isn't the case?

All I can say is that if you guys are so right, then 32 front offices, in a league STARVED for QB talent, are entirely missing the boat.

captkoi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Ya know, I've forgotten what the original thread
> was about.


hahaha...me too!



>
> I don't think I ever claimed he was a "good QB."
> I was just pointing out a few things of what he
> brought to the Denver Broncos.
>
> Would I want him on my team? Only if I wasn't
> putting any fannies in the stands and I had no
> real QB on my roster. Otherwise, no, I would not
> want him on my team.
>
> What I am also saying is that there are teams out
> there that could use a guy like Tebow (Jax). The
> majority of the NFL is scared to death of him
> because they consider him a "polarizing figure."
> There are teams out there that could use him, but
> refuse to even give him a look-see.
>
> Anyway, my best to Tebow and his future, whatever
> it may be.

Matt Moore is not a good Practice player either. But he has shown he can handle pressure and come through when need be. Tebow is not good enough to be a NFL stating QB. Agreed. All I'm saying is , he certainly does NOT stink or Suck. I think he has earned that much respect. That is all. Bash away at him if it makes you feel better. Tebow is the kind of guy that will succeed somehow someway at whatever life throws at him.

GO DOLPHINS!!!!

The reason Denver defense gave up more points under Orton is because in 5 games Orton had 7 interceptions.. Inerceptions leads to scores... And just to be clear, Tebow had 6 interceptions in the remaining 11 games... The points given up by Denvers defense can be directly related to Orton's losing the turnover battle.. And the Defense giving up less points can be directly connected to the fact Tebow didn't throw interceptions...
I supposed it was everybody else fault that Orton didnt protect the ball and Tebow did... In 11 games Tebow gave up less interceptions then Orton in 5... That is a pretty self explanatory stat. It is not like Denver just pulled Orton for no reason because the defense wasnt playing well....

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2013 12:45PM by Crowder52.