Ginn or Quinn
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This is a moderated phorum for the CIVILIZED discussion of the Miami Dolphins. In this phorum, there are rules and moderators to make sure you abide by the rules. The moderators for this phorum are JC and Colonel.
This is easy. What has Quinn done? Has he even shown glimpses of being anything other than an average QB? Atleast Ginn is improving and showing glimpses of being an offensive weapon/threat.
The real debate should be Ginn or Patrick Willis. But anywho, that doesnt really matter.
You can make a debate that Buffalo needed a QB (they drafted Edwards in the 3rd), San Fran, St. Louis, Green Bay and Jacksonville all needed QB's. And they all drafted *AFTER* us and before Cleveland picked Quinn.
One primary 'if' in my mind is whether Cam might have entrusted the QB position to Quinn when Green went down and he would have won, let's say, 2 games instead of just one so late in the season. If that had happened, then we might have stuck with him (CamMueller) for another year and lost out on the trifecta, Pennington, etc.
Another of the 'ifs' that is really less of a stretch is that we would not have drafted Beck or Henne in the 2nd rounds of 07 and 08. We would have been able to work on different roster holes from among the top ~50 players coming out each of those years.
One of my favorite theories is that Cam's drafting of Ginn was his undoing. Not just because many saw it as a dumb pick, but because it was:
- Ginn's changing of direction on a reverse that caused Green to get a concussion
- that led to the Lemon/Beck experiment
- that led to the Lemon interception against NE
- that led to Brown's freak injury on the INT return
- that led to us not getting a win until the 14th game
I happen to believe that Green is enough of a professional and we had enough offensive talent to have won a couple of games earlier in the season. If that had happened, I don't think Cam gets fired.
Deciding to go with Trent "scrambled eggs" Green at QB was a mistake all by itself. The fact that he got hurt on a Ginn reverse means nothing. With all due respect for the career that he had, Green was always one hit away from a season ending concussion.
Ginn Jr.
Three different offenses,
Tressel's
Cam's
Henning's
Five different QB's
Troy smith
Trent Green
Cleo Lemon
John Beck
Chad Pennington
50 plus catches and 790 yds playing in an offense that can't take advantage of his skills. We don't/can't throw the deep outs and comebacks which were his bread and butter along with go routes in college. Add this to the fact that he's only been playing the receiver position for five years and I say Ginn Jr. hands down
Aqua&Orange Wrote:
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> I knew you say something like that. Ginn Hater
> Noetic....
I was being facetious. No need to get your panties in a twist.
Regardless, I simply don't like the guy, and I've made that no secret. I don't think he has any heart or desire, and that rubs me the wrong way. But perhaps you two can hold hands and share on operating table...they can give him a heart while you receive a sense of humor.
Mistake or not, I happen to believe he stood a decent chance of surviving the next 5-6 games. I happen to think that Brown's injury wouldn't have occurred had Lemon not thrown the INT (because he wouldn't have been in the game). So, we'd have had a much more seasoned QB at the helm with an all-pro RB running and receiving better than at any time in his career.
Including the Texas game (where Green was knocked out really early), 3 of our next 7 games were decided by 3 points each. And against Philly, the Eagles had to come from behind to beat us with Beck playing with what looked to be about 10% of the playbook. I think we win a couple games during that stretch and don't go into this weird desperation down the stretch. We still would have sucked, but not historically. Just my opinion.
Green could have suffered a concussion the very next play and Brown could have blown out his ACL on a normal run instead of that INT return. In my mind, they're related when I look back at them. I'm comfortable with not everyone sharing that opinion. I like that our historically bad season rendered a new regime.
Well given the state of the team at the time I'd have to say Quinn. I like Ginn and think he will continue to improve but in that draft we needed a quarterback...Quinn was available and I'd have taken him. For the record though I liked Beck better than Quinn and if I'd have been in charge I'd have ultimately taken them both.
I also would have taken Brees and then Rivers two players I was pissed we didn't draft when we had the chance...I would have also taken Anquan Bolden instead of Eddie Moore.
If we simply focus on this year, there a couple things that we should look at:
-Two receiving TD. Anthony Fasano had seven.
-56 receptions. Camarillo had 55, Bess had 54.
Pennington had an MVP quality season, and is clearly the most accurate passer in the league. He made a point all season to insist that he chooses no favorites, and his favorite receiver will always be the open man. As the #1 WR in the Dolphins offense, Ginn had the same number of catches as two guys who shared their workload and did not individually turn in complete seasons of work. This is obviously a terrific performance from Pennington to share the ball so effectively, but you would expect the #9 overall pick to be open more than two project players.
Ginn is around 50th in the league for receptions, behind several tight ends, running backs, and #2 WRs. While I realize that stats can always be skewed, and these stats in particular rely heavily on the type of offense a team runs, the fact remains that our #9 overall pick is less of a threat than the #2 guy on most teams.
Also, Camarillo and Bess play to Pennington's strength, which is throwing the short pass. Ginn stretches the field, but Pennington struggles throwing the deep ball.
Besides that, guys who run short routes naturally get more balls thrown their way. Welker always catches more passes than Moss.
noetic Wrote:
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> If we simply focus on this year, there a couple
> things that we should look at:
>
> -Two receiving TD. Anthony Fasano had seven.
>
> -56 receptions. Camarillo had 55, Bess had 54.
>
>
> Pennington had an MVP quality season, and is
> clearly the most accurate passer in the league. He
> made a point all season to insist that he chooses
> no favorites, and his favorite receiver will
> always be the open man. As the #1 WR in the
> Dolphins offense, Ginn had the same number of
> catches as two guys who shared their workload and
> did not individually turn in complete seasons of
> work. This is obviously a terrific performance
> from Pennington to share the ball so effectively,
> but you would expect the #9 overall pick to be
> open more than two project players.
>
> Ginn is around 50th in the league for receptions,
> behind several tight ends, running backs, and #2
> WRs. While I realize that stats can always be
> skewed, and these stats in particular rely heavily
> on the type of offense a team runs, the fact
> remains that our #9 overall pick is less of a
> threat than the #2 guy on most teams.
This is a very compelling argument if the topic of this thread would have been a comparison of Ginn vs. other receivers on the Dolphins. But it clearly reads, Ginn vs. Quinn. IMO while he hasn't performed up to expectations (yet?), Ginn has clearly produced some results so far. Quinn, relatively speaking, has not.
I don't want to knock Pennington because he was great for us this year; but how many completions of 30+ yards can you recall him throwing? I think of the flea flicker to Ginn which was an amazing catch. How many others? Maybe I missed some, but there weren't a lot. He also doesn't throw the deep out. I don't mean that he is inaccurate throwing the deep out; I mean that I didn't see him throw it at all. Someone here made a point a while ago that the field narrows for the defense when Pennington is the QB because he doesn't throw the deep ball or the deep out.
As for Ginn using his speed underneath, that is not his job right now. His job is to run the deep routes. If Ginn worked the underneath, along with Camarillo or Bess then the entire defense would be within 10 to 15 yards of the line of scrimmage. That would make things really tough on Pennington. So while Pennington doesn't throw to Ginn as much as Camarillo, Ginn brought a lot of value to this offense.