dolfanmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> berkeley223 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ok but isn't that a stupid deal to sign him to
> in
> > the first place. most backloaded deals are
> > structured to get at least a few years from the
> > player before the baloon payment. we went thru
> all
> > that with solai just to cut him for cap reasons
> in
> > his prime? again, I don't see this kind of
> stuff
> > from any other team. Everyone faced the same
> > expiring CBA and yet I am not aware of any
> other
> > player who "had to" be franchised and then let
> him
> > play on the tag #. And I don't know of other
> teams
> > who sign a player to a "backloaded" deal and
> then
> > need to cut him 1 year later. sheesh.
>
>
> Teams do these backloaded deals all the time.
> Every team does it. It's how they manage the cap.
> It why when a guy signs as a free agent, the only
> thing that really matters is the pay out of the
> guaranteed money. Most free agents never get the
> entire value of their contract. Most get cut once
> the guaranteed money is gone or negligible. It's
> not like baseball, with guaranteed contracts.
>
> The Soliai situation was somewhat unique. He was a
> restricted free agent. And there was the clause in
> the the CBA that restricted how much of a raise we
> were allowed to give him as part of the normal
> process. It had to do with the expiring CBA, so it
> was truly a unique circumstance. This was known as
> "30 percent rule." A restricted free agent was not
> allowed more than a 30% raise. The beat writers
> covered it extensively at the time. Our options
> were to offer him a very small percentage raise,
> and lose him to a free agent offer we couldn't
> match by rule of the CBA, or to franchise tag him.
> And once a guy signs a franchise tag, he's
> guaranteed that money. And in Soliai's unique
> case, his tag was a lot more than he could get on
> the market, so Soliai had no reason to negotiate a
> long term deal.
>
> I know it pains people to admit this. But the
> reason Miami is in good cap shape and has 5 picks
> in the top 82 is because of how Jeff Ireland has
> set them up for this rebuilding.


I understand teams backload contracts all the time. The usual process is that a guy is signed to 3-4 years with a lot of money due in year 4-5 which he will never see, and he is cut. I have yet to hear of a deal that is structured where it no longer makes cap sense to keep him around in year TWO. Personally I don't see us having any need to cut Solia but that's what you were suggestion could happen for cap reasons. In which case Solia was signed to a stupid contract.

Re Ireland, the reason we have so many draft picks is b/c he dumped a 1st round pick he drafted for a second rounder, and a WR he traded two 2d rounders for for 2 3d rounders. Sorry, no props for that. That just proves Vontea was a bad 1st round pick and Marshall was a bad trade.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

berkeley223 Wrote:
> I understand teams backload contracts all the
> time. The usual process is that a guy is signed to
> 3-4 years with a lot of money due in year 4-5
> which he will never see, and he is cut. I have yet
> to hear of a deal that is structured where it no
> longer makes cap sense to keep him around in year
> TWO. Personally I don't see us having any need to
> cut Solia but that's what you were suggestion
> could happen for cap reasons. In which case Solia
> was signed to a stupid contract.
>

Really? a stupid contract? They paid him for one year (2012) well under market value. And now, if they want, for whatever reason, they can get out from under the contract for very small dollars. He may not be a good fit in a 4-3. And Ireland came up with a deal that was perfect for that scenario. Why commit to Soliai for multiple years if you don't know if he is athletic enough to be a 4-3 DT?

> Re Ireland, the reason we have so many draft picks
> is b/c he dumped a 1st round pick he drafted for a
> second rounder, and a WR he traded two 2d rounders
> for for 2 3d rounders. Sorry, no props for that.
> That just proves Vontea was a bad 1st round pick
> and Marshall was a bad trade.

And neither of those moves was Ireland's decision on his own. Vontae was picked while Parcells had final say. And Marshall was the "alpha" WR that Parcells says the team needed. In Vontae's case, he was a free agent at the end of this year, he wasn't part of the long term plan, so they traded him for something they could use. And as for the Marshall trade, both Philbin and Marshall wanted out. Philbin wanted Marshall gone, and Marshall requested a trade.

It's all good. When this team changed coaches, they changed philosophies dramatically. They went from a man blocking scheme with the old Erhardt-Perkins offense to a zone blocking west coast offense. They went from a 3-4 to a 4-3. Parcells believed in big players. Philbin wants fast players more than big. It is going to take awhile to turn the roster over. When the coaching switch happened, it changed the timeline for this team until 2014 and beyond. That's the question. Is this guy part of the plan in 2014? If the answer is no, then you get rid of the guy. And what Fins' fans have not accepted is that this may mean letting good guys go because they do not fit what this coaching staff wants, and they hold them back from implementing their schemes. Davone Bess, Richie Incognito, John Jerry, Paul Soliai, and Jared Odrick are all guys who may not fit in what these guys want to do long term.

mark, you know I think you are the smartest poster on here, but you're really irrational with your Ireland defense. Basically it seems like you are saying (1) Ireland signed players with the idea that we may be switching schemes in a year or so, so let's not lock them in long term to a deal that makes sense under the cap (what kind of way is that to run a team and retain your players), and (2) the tired old trope that all of Ireland's "bad" moves are really Parcells.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Don't forget to give Parcels some credit for Vontae AND MARSHALL. Once again, Ireland shouldn't get all of the blame and none of the credit.

We all thought Vontae was a good pick and that he was going to be a great corner. There is no way of telling he was going to flake out before his 4th year. That's just crazy. he was fine up til that point and all signs pointed toward him remaining a quality CB. We got a 2nd round pick for him. Let's not judge too harshly before we find out who that pick turns out to be. It could be a ROY candidate.

We also have an extra 3rd pick this year for Marshall AND we got TWO 1k yard seasons for him. I wouldn't call that a waste. It seems like a wash to me. Ireland's biggest mistake was listening to Parcels too much and keeping Sparano around.

Let's see how this off season unfolds. There is plenty of time to run him outa town on a rail.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dolfanmark Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > berkeley223 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > ok but isn't that a stupid deal to sign him
> to
> > in
> > > the first place. most backloaded deals are
> > > structured to get at least a few years from
> the
> > > player before the baloon payment. we went
> thru
> > all
> > > that with solai just to cut him for cap
> reasons
> > in
> > > his prime? again, I don't see this kind of
> > stuff
> > > from any other team. Everyone faced the same
> > > expiring CBA and yet I am not aware of any
> > other
> > > player who "had to" be franchised and then
> let
> > him
> > > play on the tag #. And I don't know of other
> > teams
> > > who sign a player to a "backloaded" deal and
> > then
> > > need to cut him 1 year later. sheesh.
> >
> >
> > Teams do these backloaded deals all the time.
> > Every team does it. It's how they manage the
> cap.
> > It why when a guy signs as a free agent, the
> only
> > thing that really matters is the pay out of the
> > guaranteed money. Most free agents never get
> the
> > entire value of their contract. Most get cut
> once
> > the guaranteed money is gone or negligible.
> It's
> > not like baseball, with guaranteed contracts.
> >
> > The Soliai situation was somewhat unique. He was
> a
> > restricted free agent. And there was the clause
> in
> > the the CBA that restricted how much of a raise
> we
> > were allowed to give him as part of the normal
> > process. It had to do with the expiring CBA, so
> it
> > was truly a unique circumstance. This was known
> as
> > "30 percent rule." A restricted free agent was
> not
> > allowed more than a 30% raise. The beat writers
> > covered it extensively at the time. Our options
> > were to offer him a very small percentage
> raise,
> > and lose him to a free agent offer we couldn't
> > match by rule of the CBA, or to franchise tag
> him.
> > And once a guy signs a franchise tag, he's
> > guaranteed that money. And in Soliai's unique
> > case, his tag was a lot more than he could get
> on
> > the market, so Soliai had no reason to negotiate
> a
> > long term deal.
> >
> > I know it pains people to admit this. But the
> > reason Miami is in good cap shape and has 5
> picks
> > in the top 82 is because of how Jeff Ireland
> has
> > set them up for this rebuilding.
>
>
> I understand teams backload contracts all the
> time. The usual process is that a guy is signed to
> 3-4 years with a lot of money due in year 4-5
> which he will never see, and he is cut. I have yet
> to hear of a deal that is structured where it no
> longer makes cap sense to keep him around in year
> TWO. Personally I don't see us having any need to
> cut Solia but that's what you were suggestion
> could happen for cap reasons. In which case Solia
> was signed to a stupid contract.


Negotiating a contract takes TWO sides.

You can't make the player sign a deal he doesn't want.

The reason it's a two year deal is because Soliai WANTED a shorter deal so he could hit the market again.

Ireland had the choice to say "no" but what smart GM is passing on Soliai at a bargain, even if its two years?

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't forget to give Parcels some credit for
> Vontae AND MARSHALL. Once again, Ireland shouldn't
> get all of the blame and none of the credit.
>
> We all thought Vontae was a good pick and that he
> was going to be a great corner. There is no way of
> telling he was going to flake out before his 4th
> year. That's just crazy. he was fine up til that
> point and all signs pointed toward him remaining a
> quality CB. We got a 2nd round pick for him. Let's
> not judge too harshly before we find out who that
> pick turns out to be. It could be a ROY
> candidate.
>
> We also have an extra 3rd pick this year for
> Marshall AND we got TWO 1k yard seasons for him. I
> wouldn't call that a waste. It seems like a wash
> to me. Ireland's biggest mistake was listening to
> Parcels too much and keeping Sparano around.
>
> Let's see how this off season unfolds. There is
> plenty of time to run him outa town on a rail.


Even if you give Ireland the credit/blame for it....got 3 years as a starter from the 24th pick and got a pick 1 round later for him.

And with Marshall...gave up two #2's got two 1,000 yard seasons, got two picks int he following round for him.

The trades are good trades value-wise and you made them because your new staff wanted nothing to do with them.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mark, you know I think you are the smartest poster
> on here, but you're really irrational with your
> Ireland defense. Basically it seems like you are
> saying (1) Ireland signed players with the idea
> that we may be switching schemes in a year or so,
> so let's not lock them in long term to a deal that
> makes sense under the cap (what kind of way is
> that to run a team and retain your players), and
> (2) the tired old trope that all of Ireland's
> "bad" moves are really Parcells.

I'm not irrational about defending Ireland. I just like to deal with facts. Ireland signed Soliai in 2012, knowing that we were switching to a 4-3. It wasn't done a year in advance. And he made a smart deal with low risk if Soliai didn't work out in the new scheme. Ireland's handling of Soliai, in both 2011 and 2012 are feathers in his cap.

Bill Parcells is a control freak with a massive ego. It is not rational to believe that he was letting anyone call the shots but him.

Ireland was the GM, he controlled the staff, Parcells after Mr H. left was more of a part timer, consultant then a Micro managing contr freak.. Year 1 before Huizenga sold the team he was the control freak, once Mr H bailed so did Parcells and he surely didn't act as a control freak during that time IMO.. He was hired by Mr H, his loyalty was there, as soon as Ross signed the deal Parcells wanted out..

-----------------------------------------------------------------
All things are subject to interpretation whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth.
Nietzsche

dolfanmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not irrational about defending Ireland. I just
> like to deal with facts. Ireland signed Soliai in
> 2012, knowing that we were switching to a 4-3. It
> wasn't done a year in advance. And he made a smart
> deal with low risk if Soliai didn't work out in
> the new scheme. Ireland's handling of Soliai, in
> both 2011 and 2012 are feathers in his cap.
>
> Bill Parcells is a control freak with a massive
> ego. It is not rational to believe that he was
> letting anyone call the shots but him.

Exactly!

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Quote eesti: Everyone is replaceable. Ask Peyton Manning.

The colts went like 1 and 15 when payton manning was hurt.

And they havent won a thing with luck yet.

Eesti to me there is only one team successfull every year. And thats the team that wins the superbowl.

Even the team that goes to the superbowl and loses doesnt accomplish a thing.

Ask the buffalo bills. They will be known as superbowl losers for the rest of their lives until they win one. Big IF.

eesti i think bess makes the pro bowl as a member of the pats.

If bess has an all pro qb throwing to him and great supporting cast wrs he would be another west welker.