Interesting stat from SI (Feb 11 issue):

"57: Total sacks, hits and hurries - fourth most in the league - yielded by rookie tackle Jonathan Martin, who played 12 games on the right side, then moved to the left after Jake Long went on IR in Week 12."

Does the coaching staff have enough confidence in Martin that they can allow Long to walk?

Long has to lower his demands, otherwise Miami will have no choice but to take the chance that Martin can do the job.

SI also indicated that Miami should get Jennings.

let's see, most of the year Martin was a rookie playing out of his natural position. After that he was thrown in at LT with less than a week of practice there.

The raw stats on Martin are deceiving. On the other hand, what were the stats on Long compared to the rest of the league?

montequi Wrote:
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> let's see, most of the year Martin was a rookie
> playing out of his natural position. After that
> he was thrown in at LT with less than a week of
> practice there.
>
> The raw stats on Martin are deceiving. On the
> other hand, what were the stats on Long compared
> to the rest of the league?

*********************************************

Here's what SI had to say about Long:

"Pay Long, who'll be one of the NFL's most-sought-after unrestricted free agents. The four-time Pro bowler has given up almost as many sacks in his last two seasons (12.5) as he did in his first three (13.5), but so what? During that time he has been battling shoulder and arm injuries, and he still ranks among the best at his pivotal position. That will allow Martin to move back to the less demanding right side."

But Martin struggled at RT, even moreso than he did at LT despite being a rookie at both.

Or we could just PAY one of the 10 FA tackles who ranked 3x higher than Long. I guess that is too logical for SI.

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“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

ChyrenB Wrote:
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> But Martin struggled at RT, even moreso than he
> did at LT despite being a rookie at both.


Martin excelled run blocking at LT, but was bad in pass protection at both positions.

At LT, Martin allowed 2 sacks, 2 hits, and 17 hurries. That is over 4 QB disruptions allowed per game at LT. He allowed 3.5 pressures per game at RT.

By comparison, Long allowed just 21 disruptive plays in 11 games, less than 2 per game.

I am not in favor of paying Long. But, he was way better than Martin. And it is a misconception that Martin was really that much better at LT than he was at RT. Look at the free agent market. There are going to be a lot of quality tackles available. They aren't all going to get paid big $. There isn't enough money to go around for that to happen. Miami can be patient and get a solid OT for less than Long will get.

I'm not sold on Martin just yet. He has the intelligence to play the position but he needs his body to catch up. Hopefully he works out like a mad man all off season.

We pretty much need a vet at the other bookend. We can't be gambling on TWO young players to protect the franchise. Too much at stake. Give Tannehill time to throw and someone to throw to and he will carve defenses up.

There is also talk about moving Jerry to RT but I see no signs of that happening or that he is good enough.

dolfanmark....how did Jerry grade out in pass pro and run blocking last year.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Long sucks in comparison to the $$ he wants. See ya! I agree try Martin at LT, he had a high first r grade at the position last season and only had a few games with no training camp in the pros, and wasn't awful all things considered

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The beatings will continue until morale improves.

dolfanmark Wrote:
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> Martin excelled run blocking at LT, but was bad in
> pass protection at both positions.
>
> At LT, Martin allowed 2 sacks, 2 hits, and 17
> hurries. That is over 4 QB disruptions allowed per
> game at LT. He allowed 3.5 pressures per game at
> RT.
>
> By comparison, Long allowed just 21 disruptive
> plays in 11 games, less than 2 per game.
>
> I am not in favor of paying Long. But, he was way
> better than Martin. And it is a misconception that
> Martin was really that much better at LT than he
> was at RT. Look at the free agent market. There
> are going to be a lot of quality tackles
> available. They aren't all going to get paid big
> $. There isn't enough money to go around for that
> to happen. Miami can be patient and get a solid OT
> for less than Long will get.

RESPONSE: That's why I pointed out that Martin was a rookie! Even at LT as I said.

As I remember, he sucked even worse at RT.

My point was that we are not going to Happy Land with Long at LT and Martin at RT.

Long is old and injury prone and Martin sucks at RT.

My point is that the best thing for us to do is to ditch Long and bring in an RT.

You have to remember those stats you are talking about were garnered in his ROOKIE year.

What were his stats at Stanford?????

Playing LT?????

Do we seriously expect that Tannehill's stats won't improve as he gains experience?

Well, maybe not DolfanKing but..................

ChyrenB Wrote:

> As I remember, he sucked even worse at RT.
>

The QB pressure numbers disagree with this.


> You have to remember those stats you are talking
> about were garnered in his ROOKIE year.
>

Remember Richmond Webb as a rookie? He was a stud. Remember Jake Long as a rookie? Stud. Martin was better than Marc Colombo, but that's not saying much. He will get better as he gets stronger. But, he has a long way to go.

eesti Wrote:
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> There is also talk about moving Jerry to RT but I
> see no signs of that happening or that he is good
> enough.
>
> dolfanmark....how did Jerry grade out in pass pro
> and run blocking last year.

Well, Jerry can't stay at OG in this system. He's never going to be athletic enough to fit with what they want. His only chance of staying in Miami is at RT.

The good news for Jerry is that he is better in pass protection than run blocking. I should clarify that. In this system, he needs to be able to run block while on the move. And he's not good at that.

At the end of 2011, Jerry played 3 games at LT after Long was injured, and he handled it as least as well as Martin did this year. He allowed 11 QB disruption plays in those 3 games, which is better than the rate Martin allowed this year. And if you'll remember, the coaches had a lot of praise for how Jerry handled that late season move.

Jerry's PFF grades this season:
Pass blocking: +3.8
Run blocking: -8.8 (77th among guards)

And when you dig a little deeper, the majority of QB pressures he allowed all came in the first 4 games. In the last 12 games, he was solid as a rock.

He ranked 18th among guards in pass blocking efficiency.

mark what do you propose we do at OL this offseason?

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Sorry to interject but the question got me thinking.

If we sign a FA tackle then we pretty much eliminate any chance of drafting one (high) this year.

The two most important signings we make this year are T and WR IMO.

If we don't sign one then we take a huge gamble that either Eric Fisher falls to us or we wait until the 2nd round to find a tackle that can start from day one. That's a huge gamble with huge ramifications for the entire team.

There is a huge drop off between Fisher and the next few tackles who will likely be gone before we pick again at 42.

Seems to me we have to sign one of the FA tackles. It is going to cost A LOT more but we have Martin locked up for a good salary (1.2/yr) for 3 more years.

It also seems Martin may be a better fit at LT than RT even though his play was subpar on both sides. A RT will also be cheaper.

Sebastion Vollmer (injury risk), Gosder Cherilus and Ryan Harris are a few good options. (Most of the others play LT and want LT money)

That also means we still need to find a quality starting guard.

Is it possible to sign Gosder Cherilus, Greg Jennings and Andy Levitre as our big ticket items? That's about 20 mil right there. If you think about it this way, it's not as bad....

We paid Jake Long 11.2 million this year and he stunk and only played 12 games.

Our other option is to either get a draft pick for John Jerry or move him to RT and take a chance he doesn't show up 40 lbs overweight again.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

I really don't see us signing 2 high priced FA lineman. That's the same kind of stuff we've been doing for years and it hasn't gotten us anyway. Ireland knows this is the offseason we need to spend our $$ on playmakers and if he blows it on lineman there will be hell to pay.

Frankly I think we can live with Martin at LT and Garner or Jerry or someone at RT. I am OK spending moderate $$ on a RT but that's it. And I don't want to spend our 1st rounder on a RT that's for damn sure.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

That means our pass protection stays the same and our running game is still mediocre....which means we probably go from the the 27th ranked offense to the 24th ranked offense if we are lucky.

Nobody wants to spend on the o-line agin because of the crap linemen we signed 4 years ago (Grove and Smiley) but you don't stop trying just because you failed. You just have to get the right players instead of injury prone players that are a year removed from being out of the league. Those were stupid moves.

You can't expect to get better by just adding a WR or two. Tannehill won't be throwing deep to anyone if he is on his back.

We could still sign a RT and LG for probably only 2mil more than what we paid Long alone. We are not in the same situation we were in 2008. We made Long the highest paid lineman in the league (11.4mil/yr). We already had Carey making 7 mil a year and then paid Smiley 5 mil and Grove 6 mil. That's 30 mil per year for 4 players not counting Donald Thomas.

Levitre will get a contract around 6.5 mil (maybe 7) or so. Cherilus probably gets around 7 mil (maybe 8). That's not a bad investment. Incog is making 4 mil. Pouncey 1.2 mil. Martin 600k. That's 19.8 mil for an entire offensive line. It still leaves room for the play makers.

Nobody will be complaining when Tannehill has all day to throw and Miller is carving up defenses.

Besides it's not the only option but we either sign lineman or draft them. Ignore them and we are screwed.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

How about just developing who we already have? I'm tired of this argument with drafting O-Linemen high or paying for high-priced FAs. Isn't that what we've done for the last 4 years? And yet our O-Line was better just a couple years BEFORE we drafted Long.

it's been rehashed to death on this board. good teams find good enough OL without blowing their cap and high picks on them. it's time to try that approach. I don't think the players we have are all that terrible anyway. with the $$ we save on long we can add a player at half his cost to the OL and call it a day.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Who are these good teams with a slew of low round linemen? Is it a majority of the league or just a few teams? I would venture to guess it's the exception not the rule.

Who do we have to develop? We haven't drafted a lineman since the 6th round in 2009. Four years ago.

It's a nice thought but not very realistic.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

montequi Wrote:
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> How about just developing who we already have?
> I'm tired of this argument with drafting O-Linemen
> high or paying for high-priced FAs. Isn't that
> what we've done for the last 4 years? And yet our
> O-Line was better just a couple years BEFORE we
> drafted Long.


Because most of who we already have we're acquired for a parcells power offense. Very few of them have the skill set to translate to a zone blocking scheme.

It doesn't matter where we get them but if we don't get people that can play in this scheme our offense will continue to struggle.

eesti Wrote:
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> Who are these good teams with a slew of low round
> linemen? Is it a majority of the league or just a
> few teams? I would venture to guess it's the
> exception not the rule.
>
> Who do we have to develop? We haven't drafted a
> lineman since the 6th round in 2009. Four years
> ago.
>
> It's a nice thought but not very realistic.


I don't have time to research it, but anecdotally I am fairly sure that NE doesn't have a bunch of high picks or high priced FA on their line, same with GB, same with NY, same with a bunch of teams who contend year in and year out. Meanwhile the 2 teams with the highest drafted and paid LTs in the league (us and CLE) suck endlessly

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

Patriots: 7th ranked rushing

Logan Mankins, 1st round pick
Nate Solder, 1st round pick
Sebastian Vollmer, 2nd round pick

GB: 20th ranked rushing offense, Aaron Rodgers sacked 51 times. 2nd most in league.

LT 5th
LG 4th
C undrafted
RG 4th
RT undrafted

NYG: 14th rank rushing (won one more game than Miami)

LT 2nd
LG 6th
C 2nd
RG 2nd
RT 5th

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

that kind of proves my point. The latter 2 teams have won 2 of the last 3 SBs and not a first round pick in the bunch.
for some reason i thought the Pats only had mankins as a high pick.

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

berkeley223 Wrote:
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> that kind of proves my point. The latter 2 teams
> have won 2 of the last 3 SBs and not a first round
> pick in the bunch.
> for some reason i thought the Pats only had
> mankins as a high pick.

LOL. Nice try but...

It doesn't really prove anything. I think some of the credit for those SB wins may go to the TWO SUPERBOWL MVP's who just happen to be the QB. That 2011 Giants defense may have something to say about that as well.

You are also twisting things a bit. First we were talking about a "bunch of high picks or high priced FA" and now you are limiting it to first round picks only to try and reinforce your argument.

The Giants had three 2nd round picks on the line this year. The year they won the SB they also had a 3rd round pick at RT, Kareem MCKenzie who was ALSO a high priced FA from the Jets.

The year the Packers won the SB, they also had the 5th ranked defense, Brian Bulaga, who was a 1st round pick. Chad Clifton, a 2nd round pick, Darryn Colledge a 2nd round pick, TJ Lang, a 4th rounder.

So much for that theory.

We don't have the luxury of having a top 5 QB yet. They can sometimes mask the deficiencies of other positions. Yes, we need playmakers but it won't we won't get very far without a consistently good line on both sides of the ball. You want to see what happens to a normally good team when they lose lineman or start playing badly...look at Philly and SD.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2013 10:11AM by eesti.

ChyrenB Wrote:
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> One thing that is not discussed above is that
> given Tannehill's skills set, protection for a
> "pocket passer" is less relevant for him than it
> would be for Matt Moore.
>

This is sort of true, for outside rushers. But, no matter what kind of QB you are, you can't have pressure coming up the middle. And this is something that Ireland talked about as needing to be addressed. The pocket needs to be "longer." When you see Brady have all day, you notice how clear it is in front of him. And I am not talking just sacks up the middle. Good pass protecting teams keep the inside pressure far away from the QB. It makes it much easier for the QB to see throwing lanes, see the whole field, and helps him avoid tipped passes. This is crucial.

berkeley223 Wrote:
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> mark what do you propose we do at OL this
> offseason?


This is a point that Omar Kelly made recently, and you can see it in some of the posts people have made. And in just history. Successful offensive lines are built in many ways. The early 70's Dolphins had maybe the best line in the history of the league, and at some point, all 5 starters had been released or traded by other teams. In one of the examples above, the Pats have 3 high picks on the line, while Green Bay has none. Why is that?

It's about getting guys who fit the scheme, communication, and working as a unit. When it comes to OL, the sum of the unit as a whole can definitely be much greater than it's individual parts.

Pouncey is a clear fit. But, he needs to get stronger and more stout in pass protection. Martin has the size and athleticism to fit, but he needs to get a lot stronger.

Incognito, while he had a Pro Bowl year, does not fit. He worked hard to lose some weight, and it showed. But, a LG needs to be a really good puller. And that is not Incognito's strong suit. He is a much better fit at RG, although we probably pay him too much to play the line's easiest position. That's why I don't think even he is 100% safe this year. The team isn't in salary cap trouble, so they can certainly absorb his pay, and move him to RG. But, I wouldn't guarantee it. Even at RG, he's not an ideal fit for this scheme. Think more like a 305-lb guy that can block on the run, not 325.

Why are we so bad at screen plays? A big reason is that you need guards who can move, and we don't have them.

So, assuming Incognito moves to RG, that leaves a T position and a LG position. Andy Levitre is a natural fit in this scheme at LG, but I am doubtful they are going to spend big money on anyone who doesn't score TDs, makes INTs, or gets sacks. A lot depends on what they think of Will Yeatman. He is really athletic. Could they be confident in Jerry and Yeatman competing at RT? Possibly. With the glut of tackles set to hit the market, they could also wait it out and probably get a decent guy relatively cheap after that first free agent frenzy. And then, much to most fans' dismay, I think they will draft a LG with one of those first 5 picks in the draft.

Philbin has history as an OL coach. I know Sparano was, too. But, at least Philbin should be pretty clear about what kind of players he wants.

dolfanmark Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ChyrenB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > One thing that is not discussed above is that
> > given Tannehill's skills set, protection for a
> > "pocket passer" is less relevant for him than
> it
> > would be for Matt Moore.
> >
>
> This is sort of true, for outside rushers. But, no
> matter what kind of QB you are, you can't have
> pressure coming up the middle. And this is
> something that Ireland talked about as needing to
> be addressed. The pocket needs to be "longer."
> When you see Brady have all day, you notice how
> clear it is in front of him. And I am not talking
> just sacks up the middle. Good pass protecting
> teams keep the inside pressure far away from the
> QB. It makes it much easier for the QB to see
> throwing lanes, see the whole field, and helps him
> avoid tipped passes. This is crucial.

Well, we already have a Pro-Bowl center. Now we just have to shore up the Guard position.

berkeley223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> that kind of proves my point. The latter 2 teams
> have won 2 of the last 3 SBs and not a first round
> pick in the bunch.
> for some reason i thought the Pats only had
> mankins as a high pick.


The two teams inthis years Super Bowl:

San Fran: Three 1st round picks, a 5th, and an UFA.

Ravens: Two 1st round picks, a 2nd, a 3rd and a 6th.

ok you've all convinced me----more #1s on the OL please! Where can I buy my eric fisher jersey??

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

berkeley223 Wrote:
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> Where can I buy my eric fisher jersey??
>


Arizona...