Perhaps as a LB, but how many TDs has Ray Lewis scored? You can't win if you can't score.

#1 overall is tough, but I'd definitely pick a QB. I know a lot of people would be on me for not taking Marino, but Elway was a darn good QB too!

I like Lewis but he is not the GOAT. He would be a top 10 athlete in any era of the nfl. Then you have to throw in guys like Montana, Jim Brown, LT, etc.

I guess i am thinking from the perspective of drafting all times and anyone present. As far as qb's i dont think there is a big drop off so that is why I would not pick a qb. For example you can have marino, montana, elway doesnt matter where would a guy like drew brees or rogers be? I can get brees vs your elway and are you licking your chops thinking that you have the qb advantage? can brees outplay any all time qb? I think so but I will also have ray on the defense... In my opinion all these skill positions, rb, wr, te, cb, safety, olb ect are so saturated with talent that is why I would argue that ray has to be the top pick? The drop off between him and the 3rd or 4th all time MLB is like Michael jordan to me lol...

he's a killa fo sho

________________________________________________________
The beatings will continue until morale improves.

He could be the best MLB of all time but that is debatable. Hard to compare one era to another.

He is definitely the best of the modern era.

He is a great leader and motivator. He has played 4 years longer than Zach but over the first 10 years, they had very similar stats.

Ray had much better "measurables" when it came to size and speed but he did outlast Zach. Not surprising that an undersized, slow LBer would wear down though. London Fletcher has been a good one for a long time for a smallish LBer but he came two years after Ray and Zach.

It would be hard for me to vote against players like Dick Butkus and Mike Singletary but now we are talking about 3 different eras.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Gonna make a lot of people angry here but if I had to pick the GOAT and my number one pick, it would be a guy now in prison in Nevada.

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gonna make a lot of people angry here but if I had
> to pick the GOAT and my number one pick, it would
> be a guy now in prison in Nevada.

Over Jim Brown?

Wow the last comment made sense Reppa. There are a lot of great qb's. I agree Lewis being the greatest MLB. Now that would leave guys like LT, Brown (better than Simpson), Sayers (see Brown comment). More great rb's too. LBs MLBs OT WR.

IMHO LT would edge out Ray for the #1 pick of all time.

The answer is, Jim Brown.

Although a lot of teams would kill to have Ray Lewis or OJ Simpson on their roster.

Lewis is the best MLB I've seen in my lifetime. The only guy in the same sentence with him is Mike Singletary.

And while I'd probably put Lewis in the top 5, Lawrence Taylor is hands down the single best defensive player of all time.

Reggie White is second...at least in my mind.

Here is my wish list of skilled players for a dream team, I can't rank them separately outside of their position and these are only guys I have seen play.


QB: Dan Marino
RB: Barry Sanders
WR: Jerry Rice
TE: Kellen Winslow Sr.

DT: Vince Wilfork
DE: Reggie White
ILB: Ray Lewis
OLB: Lawrence Taylor
CB: Lester Haynes
S: Ronnie Lott

K: Adam Vinatieri
P: Reggie Roby

QB: Mariono
RB; Brown
FB: Zonk
WR: Rice/Warfield
TE: Winslow

DT: Joe Green
DE: Deacon Jones
ILB: Lewis
OLB: LT
CB: Deoine Sanders/ Curtis Johnson
S: Jack Tatum/Kenny Easley

ChyrenB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> With all due respect, Jim Brown could not hold a
> candle to OJ.

My reason for selecting Jim Brown was not because of his size or statistics, but because of how valuable he was to his team at the time. The opponents knew he was going to get the ball, he got the ball, and still took it to them. He produced wins and I think one championship for his team. He was the top rusher every season but one of his career, and was a perennial pro-bowl selection (back when that meant something).

OJ had some great moves and some great yards, but that didn't translate into many wins for his team. And yes my regard for him as a player is probably diminished because I saw him play against the Dolphins many times (several times in person as well). He had great moves, got great yardage, yet we beat their BUTTS every time! I don't think the Dolphins would have been able to beat Jim Brown's teams very often had our team even existed in day.

QB: John Elway (sorry Dan)
RB: Barry Sanders
FB: Jim Brown
WR: Jerry Rice
TE: Kellen Winslow Sr.

DT: Alan Page
DE: Reggie White
ILB: Ray Lewis
OLB: Lawrence Taylor
CB: Deion Sanders
S: Troy Polamalu

I think the myth of Jim brown is vastly overrated.

There is no question he dominated his era like babe Ruth dominated baseball in his era. But he did that against defenses that were smaller than he was. There were defensive ends in the 1950's that would be safeties today.

Back then there might be two guys on defense as big and/or as fast as brown was. Today there'd be 7-11.

No doubt in my mind he would be a terrific player today but not nearly as dominant or iconic.

My all-time team looks like this:

Qb: Dan Marino
RB: Barry Sanders
FB: Larry czonka
WR: Jerry Rice, Chris carter, Calvin Johnson
TE: tony Gonzalez
Ot: Anthony Munoz, Orlando pace
Og: John Hannah, Randall McDaniel
C: Dwight Stephenson

DE: deacon jones, Bruce smith
Dt: Reggie white, Leroy selmon
OLB: Lawrence Taylor, Ricky Jackson
MLB: ray Lewis, mike singletary
Cb: mike Haynes, rod Woodson
Fs: Ed reed
SS: Ronnie Lott

The real question regarding J Brown and era is not what he would do in this era but how many guys in this era could cut it in his. Half of the guys from this era would not make it out of a 1966 training camp. Brown was 6'2" 220-230 lbs, ran a 4.5 in full gear and had the heart of a lion. Only a handfull of lb's in this era would want to tackle him. He would hurt half the lb's in today's league and probably would lead the league in illegal hits. Yeah guys were smaller back then but you know they would kick 90% of todays guys in the *** and get change out. You call Butkus and Nietchke small to their faces.

Brown would be ahead of Adrian Peterson on todays league.

mizzou15 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The real question regarding J Brown and era is not
> what he would do in this era but how many guys in
> this era could cut it in his. Half of the guys
> from this era would not make it out of a 1966
> training camp. Brown was 6'2" 220-230 lbs, ran a
> 4.5 in full gear and had the heart of a lion. Only
> a handfull of lb's in this era would want to
> tackle him. He would hurt half the lb's in today's
> league and probably would lead the league in
> illegal hits. Yeah guys were smaller back then but
> you know they would kick 90% of todays guys in the
> *** and get change out. You call Butkus and
> Nietchke small to their faces.
>
> Brown would be ahead of Adrian Peterson on todays
> league.

Sorry mizzou. I just not buying the notion that guys today aren't tough enough.

Sure some are coddled athletes that coast on ability but most love to compete. They'd be successful under any circumstances. Especially when competing against smaller, slower, weaker players.

Football is about speed and power.

If you are smaller then you better be faster and quicker. Smaller and slower with a big heart gets you a walk on spot in college today.

If you took an average team today and put it in the 1950's they'd dominate the sport or they'd all be stars on other teams.

If you brought a team from the 1950's to today there might be a couple of skill guys that could play in the NFL and that's about it.

But who knows for sure? Really no way to prove one side of the debate or the other.

"But who knows for sure? Really no way to prove one side of the debate or the other".

Right

These guys may be bigger but they are not tougher is the way I see it.

JC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> My reason for selecting Jim Brown was not because
> of his size or statistics, but because of how
> valuable he was to his team at the time. The
> opponents knew he was going to get the ball, he
> got the ball, and still took it to them. He
> produced wins and I think one championship for his
> team. He was the top rusher every season but one
> of his career, and was a perennial pro-bowl
> selection (back when that meant something).
>
> OJ had some great moves and some great yards, but
> that didn't translate into many wins for his team.
> And yes my regard for him as a player is
> probably diminished because I saw him play against
> the Dolphins many times (several times in person
> as well). He had great moves, got great yardage,
> yet we beat their BUTTS every time! I don't
> think the Dolphins would have been able to beat
> Jim Brown's teams very often had our team even
> existed in day.

I hear you, JC, but you also have to look at the team (Cleveland Browns) around Jim Brown and the team (Buffalo Bills) around OJ (I don't even think he played with Jim Kelley even for a year, I think he had retired by 1983).

So, as I always say about stats in football, you have to look at the team.

Football, of all sports, is the one in which stats should be viewed the most cautiously when looking at an individual player. Baseball, after track and golf and other single player sports, is the ultimate stat sport, the guy's stats are indicative of his performance. Next is Basketball which requires a little more teamwork.

BUT football is the most team related sport. The stats in football have to be viewed with regard to the blocking for a QB or a Running Back, (and don't we painfully know) the receiving for a QB, the defense when it comes to wins and losses (I remember how under Marino even without a defense we beat almost everybody by just outscoring them until as my first wife pointed out, we ran up against Dan Fouts and the Chargers).

So that doesn't help you Jim Brown guys.

OJ had Jack Kemp and Joe Fergerson at qb a helluva good FB Braxton, Joe D was a hall of famer guard. Another guard was not that bad. I honstly cannot remember the tackles but those guys took pride in blocking for OJ. Can you honestly name the qb for Clev during Jim Browns time there w/out looking it up.

" So that doesn't help you Jim Brown guys. "

Standing by Jim Brown needs no defense or help. Just like the man himself.

I like the man too, Mizzou. He was my childhood hero and the reason me and my best elementary school buddy played pee wee and midget football. Just never saw before or since a phenom like O J.

The 1958 Roster of the Cleveland Browns included QB Milt Plum, WRs Bobby Mitchell and Ray Renfro, Lou Groza who was the kicker, Chuck Noll was a linebacker.

That's five names most people are familiar with from 54 years ago, that kinda tends to show that this Championship team was not just Jim Brown alone.

"That's five names most people are familiar with from 54 years ago, that kinda tends to show that this Championship team was not just Jim Brown alone."

Who the hell said he was. Gene Hickerson came w/ Brown in '57. He became a hall of fame guard for the Browns.

No one said Brown was a one man show. I just posted him as my #1 hb and you as usual get all wussy and gotta make some asinine point over it.

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> QB: John Elway (sorry Dan)
> RB: Barry Sanders
> FB: Jim Brown
> WR: Jerry Rice
> TE: Kellen Winslow Sr.
>
> DT: Alan Page
> DE: Reggie White
> ILB: Ray Lewis
> OLB: Lawrence Taylor
> CB: Deion Sanders
> S: Troy Polamalu


John Elway?

Traitor.

Lewis is phenomenal at killing people and getting away with it. Also a good football player.

------------------------------------------------------------

Miami Dolphins. Always Perfect.

mizzou15 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The real question regarding J Brown and era is not
> what he would do in this era but how many guys in
> this era could cut it in his. Half of the guys
> from this era would not make it out of a 1966
> training camp. Brown was 6'2" 220-230 lbs, ran a
> 4.5 in full gear and had the heart of a lion. Only
> a handfull of lb's in this era would want to
> tackle him. He would hurt half the lb's in today's
> league and probably would lead the league in
> illegal hits. Yeah guys were smaller back then but
> you know they would kick 90% of todays guys in the
> *** and get change out. You call Butkus and
> Nietchke small to their faces.
>
> Brown would be ahead of Adrian Peterson on todays
> league.

I'm with those that say Barry Sanders was better than Brown. He was.

Barry's only weakness was the uniform he wore. The greatest players on one of the suckiest teams. It was an injustice to say the least.

------------------------------------------------------------

Miami Dolphins. Always Perfect.

montequi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> QB: John Elway (sorry Dan)
> RB: Barry Sanders
> FB: Jim Brown
> WR: Jerry Rice
> TE: Kellen Winslow Sr.
>
> DT: Alan Page
> DE: Reggie White
> ILB: Ray Lewis
> OLB: Lawrence Taylor
> CB: Deion Sanders
> S: Troy Polamalu


Elway? Seriously?

Have you ever seen Dan Marino play?

------------------------------------------------------------

Miami Dolphins. Always Perfect.