Yes, vs the ravens he broke up into the middle of the field and saw ngata coming for him, he went into a slide and his leg whipped up into ngata causing a knee sprain which was worsened in the 1st quarter against the seahawks when he tried to throw on the run. And what bothers me is now they are trying to blame it on a previous injury from 2009 which had completely healed rather than on the a poor management of your franchise player.

Good points KB but let us focus back to the topic at hand. There are two issues 1) How is a guy that can only throw from the pocket better than a guy that can throw as well and can also run? 2) running out of the pocket will get your qb hurt, however I have yet to hear even 1 example of this (even though I have given 10 example of qb's getting hurt in the pocket just this year alone).

OK let me get you guys started. 1) RG3 obviously and 2) in 2010 mike vick got crunched by 2 redskins trying to jump into the endzone (broke 2 ribs). There that is 2 examples surely you guys can give me 3 more since running puts the qb at such high risk like you hear on this board and sports center right lol...

And KB, i hate the term "run first qb" since there is no such thing. Lets take vince young who probably was not groomed as the best passer. When he dropped back and then run do you think that he did not look down field first for a pass? So what is a run first qb? If a qb runs first then guess what... it was a designed qb run or a qb draw. NO QB looks to run first! that is a rediculous concept...

Couple of things reppa.

1- I think when people say a qb is a run first qb it's not a statement that they run first. I think It's an observationt that they call into that group of qb's who's mobility is their primary attribute. That is to say that they are better runners than passers.

2- As far as qb's getting hurt out of the pocket it happens quite a lot. Rg3 suffered a concussion this year and had to leave the game on a play where he didnt run out of bounds.

Trent green had his career ended from a concussion where he slid late at the end of a scramble.

Kurt Warner got hurt the same way.

There are plenty more, those are off the top of my head and I don't have the time do further research on it today.

Miami Reppa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good points KB but let us focus back to the topic
> at hand. There are two issues 1) How is a guy
> that can only throw from the pocket better than a
> guy that can throw as well and can also run?

He isn't. BUT, the key words are 'throw as well'. Rarely is this the case. I hate to keep using Vick as an example but he is the type of QB your talking about and has a history to draw from. IN his first stint in the league when he was running up all the rushing numbers that land him # 3 all time in rushing QB's, He NEVER threw for more than 3000 yards and only threw for more than 2500 ONCE. As a matter of fact if you do the #'s his average passing yards/TD's over that period of time were 1900/11. Cunningham's career averages are eerily similar at 1800/12. Hardly 'elite' stats when compared to Marino, Elway, Manning, Brady, Young, Warner and other 'pure passers' playing during that time. So I think your using 'throw as well' subjectively.

> 2) running out of the pocket will get your qb hurt,
> however I have yet to hear even 1 example of this
> (even though I have given 10 example of qb's
> getting hurt in the pocket just this year alone).

I won't argue that you can get hurt as easily in the pocket as out. But when a guy relies on the threat of his running as a large portion of his game and he loses that, he simply isn't as effective, statistically as a player. ala RGIII after he hurt that knee. I know the skins still won the final two regular season games he played in, but including the playoff against STL, he averaged like 30 yards rushing and 120 yds passing after first injuring that knee against Baltimore.

>
> OK let me get you guys started. 1) RG3 obviously
> and 2) in 2010 mike vick got crunched by 2
> redskins trying to jump into the endzone (broke 2
> ribs). There that is 2 examples surely you guys
> can give me 3 more since running puts the qb at
> such high risk like you hear on this board and
> sports center right lol...

Reppa in my opinion (and I know everybody has one) The 'running QB's' or whatever you want to call them lose their effectiveness not from simply getting hurt but from the decline of that 23 yo athleticism that allows a natural athelete to run away from everybody for a few years. This is sped up by injury (in the pocket or wherever) and the rigors of one NFL season after another. AS their rushing #'s drop their passing doesn't get much better or even gets worse as the running threat isn't as much of a worry to the defense. An exception to this was Mcnabb, with age his rushing tailed off but his passing actually improved so he stayed competitive even while rushing for under 150 yds in his last two seasons w/Philly.

>
> And KB, i hate the term "run first qb" since there
> is no such thing. Lets take vince young who
> probably was not groomed as the best passer. When
> he dropped back and then run do you think that he
> did not look down field first for a pass? So what
> is a run first qb? If a qb runs first then guess
> what... it was a designed qb run or a qb draw. NO
> QB looks to run first! that is a rediculous
> concept...

Your right. 'dual threat' doesn't say it very well either. As I said earlier, A 'scrambler' is a dual threat QB who can rack up just as many yards as a 'running QB' but he's still different. To me this is what Wilson is. IDK what term to use but there are just some QB's that seem to have the inclination to pull the ball in and become a running back sooner and/or more often than others. Most of these guys (Newton, RGIII, Vick) fit that mold.

Maybe we can call them 'Reppa Quarterbacks'

I'm sure Pat White could tell you about the dangers of leaving the pocket as well!

OK now KB, most of your points I do agree with. Guys like cunningham, vick and young were very talented athletes who were not the most polished passers and as they lost there speed due to age there effectiveness diminished. My point is that was the past. Look at guys like RG3 his passing numbers in college 4293 total yards, 37 TDs/ 6int compared to the great andrew luck in college 3517 total yards, 37 TDs/ 10ints... And i did not even mention what he did on the ground.

My point is use the eye test looking at guys like cam, rg3, russel wilson and if you see young, vick and cunningham then i dont know if you are looking at the same qb's I am. Your argument like most people is of an old era and does not apply now. Athletically they are similar but that is where the comparison stops... These guys are legitimate passing threats as well.

reppa qb's lol yeah...

You guys give good comments, now we are getting somewhere OK now on to TRUTH. Your injuries of the top off your head lets say span 10 year for the sake of throwing out a number. How many times have all qb's on every team rushed in that time?

Over a period from say 2002-2012 (in 2007 all qb's total ~1200 rushing attempts, which is about 37 rushing attempts per qb's per season). Ok times 10 for 10 years bring us to ~12,000 rushing attempts for all qb's over that span. You 3 examples I gave 2, lets say we forgot some like bledsoe lol, i will quadruple that number from 5 to 20 rushing injuries over 10 years which I am sure we can both agree is an over estimation. That means

20 (total rushing injuries)/ 12,000 (total rushing attempts) = ~.167% probability of getting injured (now dont forget we overestimated so the number is probably closer to .1%) by anymeans statistically non existent lol

Miami Reppa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OK now KB, most of your points I do agree with.
> Guys like cunningham, vick and young were very
> talented athletes who were not the most polished
> passers and as they lost there speed due to age
> there effectiveness diminished. My point is that
> was the past. Look at guys like RG3 his passing
> numbers in college 4293 total yards, 37 TDs/ 6int
> compared to the great andrew luck in college 3517
> total yards, 37 TDs/ 10ints... And i did not even
> mention what he did on the ground.
>
> My point is use the eye test looking at guys like
> cam, rg3, russel wilson and if you see young, vick
> and cunningham then i dont know if you are looking
> at the same qb's I am. Your argument like most
> people is of an old era and does not apply now.
> Athletically they are similar but that is where
> the comparison stops... These guys are legitimate
> passing threats as well.
>
> reppa qb's lol yeah...


Your right about the better passing numbers for example Newton 4000 last year 3800 this. I attribute that two two things:

1.) The new rules that have made the NFL pass friendly, some might say pass happy. Only 5 times has a QB thrown for over 5000 yards in a season and 4 of those have been in the last 3 years! 11 Guys this year threw for over 4000! I still say it's starting to look like flag football lol!

2.) The NFL version of the 'Read Option' play. This ties up at least one linebacker and opens the middle of the field. RGIII killed with this early in the year as did Newton last year. Not positive but I don't remember Cunningham or Vick running this much years ago. IMO though this is like the wildcat. Effective till it's figured out by the defensive coordinators.

Whatever the reason, while their passing stats have improved vs Vick or Cunningham in a different era, they still aren't top 5 or even top 10 passers in Yards/TD's. Of the 32 NFL starters, you have to look at #13 to find Newton and 23, 24 to Find RGIII and Wilson.

Anyway, appreciate the comments and civil debate.

Miami Reppa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You guys give good comments, now we are getting
> somewhere OK now on to TRUTH. Your injuries of
> the top off your head lets say span 10 year for
> the sake of throwing out a number. How many times
> have all qb's on every team rushed in that time?
>
> Over a period from say 2002-2012 (in 2007 all qb's
> total ~1200 rushing attempts, which is about 37
> rushing attempts per qb's per season). Ok times
> 10 for 10 years bring us to ~12,000 rushing
> attempts for all qb's over that span. You 3
> examples I gave 2, lets say we forgot some like
> bledsoe lol, i will quadruple that number from 5
> to 20 rushing injuries over 10 years which I am
> sure we can both agree is an over estimation.
> That means
>
> 20 (total rushing injuries)/ 12,000 (total rushing
> attempts) = ~.167% probability of getting injured
> (now dont forget we overestimated so the number is
> probably closer to .1%) by anymeans statistically
> non existent lol


I think your numbers are totally subjective and not even close to accurate, but you are missing my point. I'm not debating where QB's are more likely to get injured. The get injured all over the place. In the pocket, out of the pocket, riding motorcycles, playing with strippers, etc. I was merely giving you what you asked for...examples of QB's injured outside the pocket.

My original point was, and remains, that mobile QB's don't succeed as mobile QB's as long as pocket passers succeed at pocket passing. Even if they never suffer a leg injury, father time will rob them of their speed and quickness. Once that happens, of they suffer leg injuries, all you have is a pocket passer who isn't a top notch pocket passer.

If all you want to do is discuss the frequency of injuries to QB's inside the pocket versus outside the pocket...the point is conceded. But statistically, that was always going to be the case. If there are 32 starting QB's every year and 90% of them are pocket passers...and the average QB throws 30 passes a week and runs 3 or 4 times then they are far more likely to get hurt in the pocket.

KB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> 1.) The new rules that have made the NFL pass
> friendly, some might say pass happy. Only 5 times
> has a QB thrown for over 5000 yards in a season
> and 4 of those have been in the last 3 years! 11
> Guys this year threw for over 4000! I still say
> it's starting to look like flag football lol!

yeah I was of the opinion that a qb should sit for 2-3 years but clearly that is no longer the case!

> 2.) The NFL version of the 'Read Option' play.
> This ties up at least one linebacker and opens the
> middle of the field. RGIII killed with this early
> in the year as did Newton last year. Not positive
> but I don't remember Cunningham or Vick running
> this much years ago. IMO though this is like the
> wildcat. Effective till it's figured out by the
> defensive coordinators.

Yes RG3/wilson/colin/cam has racked up yards from read option, however that argues for why a running threat plus the ability to pass is a greater advantage. I dont think anyone will respect Nick Foles in a read option with his 5.2 forty lol... Also I dont recall RG3 running the read option in college at baylor and threw for 4700 yards. He can be successful as a pure passer however he also possesses 4.3 speed

> Whatever the reason, while their passing stats
> have improved vs Vick or Cunningham in a different
> era, they still aren't top 5 or even top 10
> passers in Yards/TD's. Of the 32 NFL starters, you
> have to look at #13 to find Newton and 23, 24 to
> Find RGIII and Wilson.

Yes this is true but total yards depends on how much you pass. Lets go into the numbers
#11)shuab = 544 pass att, #12)E.manning = 536, #13) Cam = 485, #14) Flacco = 531 ,#15) Bradford = 551. See everyone around Cam has signifcantly more attempts than Cam. But he is still in the equation. Judgment should be on yards per completion.

The same is true for RG3 and Wilson:
#20) Tannehill = 484 pass att, #21) Rothelesburger = 449, #22)RG3 = 393, #23) Wilson = 393, #24) Cutler = 434, #25) Ponder = 483

Again another dip in passing attempts but based on less throws all three are much higher than they should be...

> Anyway, appreciate the comments and civil debate.

yes that is what happens when intelligent people discuss a topic even if they see it differently

By anymeans a mobile qb means that one guy has to spy that leaves 10 defenders. By my calculations it is easier to pass against 10 guys than 11...

THE Truth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My original point was, and remains, that mobile
> QB's don't succeed as mobile QB's as long as
> pocket passers succeed at pocket passing. Even
> if they never suffer a leg injury, father time
> will rob them of their speed and quickness. Once
> that happens, of they suffer leg injuries, all you
> have is a pocket passer who isn't a top notch
> pocket passer.

Ok i see, i think there was a time when this may have been on the truer side (if thats a word). however qb's today seem to be not just athletes, I think those guys dont get drafted anymore. Guys today are athletic and have the added dimension of passing. Or let me rephrase that, guys today are "Passers" with the added dimension of being able to run. If you look at the college passing numbers of Cam, Wilson, Colin and "especially" RG3, i would be willing to bet that all have passing numbers which are comparable and better than andrew luck's in college. My point is these guys can really throw the rock...

And mcnabb was quite the scrambler in college at syracus but he could pass aswell and he evolved. Like jordan, when his speed left him he could still kill you from deep. Also warren moon, he was a great athlete in college, he didnt get right into the NFL for reasons I wont mention but when he finally did get in he was well past his athletic prime but who could throw the rock better... I think if he was able to enter the NFL as a qb he would be in the conversations of greatest qb's ever...


> If all you want to do is discuss the frequency of
> injuries to QB's inside the pocket versus outside
> the pocket...the point is conceded. But
> statistically, that was always going to be the
> case. If there are 32 starting QB's every year
> and 90% of them are pocket passers...and the
> average QB throws 30 passes a week and runs 3 or 4
> times then they are far more likely to get hurt in
> the pocket.

Yes you are right, I didnt include that since it didnt know if it would work in my favor but actually the average qb throws the ball well over 500+ times per season, times the number of teams, times 10 years, heck yeah that's ALOT of potential pocket injuries lol...

Reppa your argument is weaker than any one's. I don't make blanket statements only what I have seen since I have been watching the game. Micheal Vick runs like a scared bitch, and can't stay in the pocket. Get's hurt all the time. Cam Newton is dumb as a brick. Never went to class at Auburn, and cant even read a book much less a defense has he been great NO. His team sucks, and what little success he had at the end of the season last year was only a freak event. It is now the off season, and he will become the old sorry ass Scam once the season starts again. As for Kapernick well yes he has played well along with Wilson, but teams, and defenses will figure them out. As they always do however if their game keeps evolving they might not be flukes. As for your boy friend Robert Griffin well the parties over 2 terrible knee injuries means he is DONE. You can't run on a bum knee, and he can't stay in the pocket so what good will he be next year not much. Kirk Cousins will take that job from him mid season after he gets hurt again. So Reppa these are my opinions, and now here is another one. You said Dan Marino could not read defenses really how does one throw for all of yards, and TD's without being able to do that. That might be the dumbest thing you ever said on this board.

miami reppa wrote: Yeah stay in the pocket its the safest thing for your knees lol.

Reppa so you are saying a pocket passer and a scrambling qb has the same odds of getting injured?

If you are saying that you are out of your mind.

5. Gimmicky offenses: Will every team in the NFL set out in search of a “pistol/read-option” offense and a uniquely skilled QB to run it, much like Robert Griffin III, Colin Kaepernick and Cam Newton in today’s copycat NFL? I suspect not. The half-life on the “Wildcat” was about 18 months, and the Pistol won’t be too different, in part because it can be defensed with a little time to scheme and practice, and in part because there just aren’t enough QBs capable of running it at this level. But there will be a ton of ink and bandwidth devoted to it. PFW

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

eesti Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>But there will be a ton of ink
> and bandwidth devoted to it.

Nail hit on head. That is the distinguishing quality of the 'new breed' QB. Ala Mike Vick, success is based on how many editions of 'Madden' your picture is on the front of lol!