Those years were some terrible QB drafts to begin with....

I'm sure the success rate would be greater over the last 3 or 4 years.

I believe a QB who can run is absolutely a greater threat....but he is also a greater risk.

I believer that running QB's only have success over the long haul if they have all the other intangibles of a great QB....dedication, intelligence, accuracy etc.

Once they lose the ability to run they are done without these things. Another thing we have learned from players like Vick and RG3 is that they are prone to injury. Cam Newton has a distinct size advantage over Vick and Griffin but that just means it will take longer for him to break down.

Give me someone in between. A pocket passer that can run when he has to...maybe 2 or 3 times a game....ala Steve Young, Favre, Gannon, Tannehill over someone who runs all the time.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

The problem with the debate is that there is a new category of 'mobile'

For decades Fan Tarkenton, Randall Cunningham, Steve Young were 'mobile' in that they would evade the rush, buy more time, get out of the pocket, get a first down etc.

Now we have the run threat QB...Cam newton, RG3, Vick in his prime.

IMO Russel Wilson and Colin Kaepernick started out as 'mobile' and are increasingly becoming 'runthreats'.

there is no doubt in my mind that the run-threat guy is explosive, dynamic, exciting...BUT....they are short-lived. Running QB's do not develop their passing skills enough. Rather than learning how to step-up, side step, throw under pressure....they pull it down and run. Which initially pays off. For a year or two...but inevitably they get hobbled, slowed, injured...and then they start to get happy feet and rather than stay in the pocket and pass...they pull it down sooner and try to get out of there sooner...settling for less, then they get in bad down & distance, or get behind in the score and start making poor decisions.

RG3 has just experienced phase 1 or his rapid decline.

IMO, a 'mobile' QB with accuracy is the best option. A guy who uses his feet to keep the pass option alive, or to get a 1st down is remebering that his ability to throw the ball well is his most valued asset. These guys develop into truly dangerous weapons because they are honing their throwing skills, and can take advantage of defensive formations that don't account for them.

I am glad the Tannehill is 'mobile'. He rushed about half as much as Russel Wilson, with hald as many yards, TDs and 1st downs...which means he is similarly effective, although not necessarily used as effectively. Wilson's avg. is 5.2 ydsper carry, Tannehill's is 4.

If Tanny develops his pocket passer abilities, and uses his mobility wisely he is going to be a very good QB.

Repla I get your point but you didn't even compare the pocket guys to the running qb's taken over that time.

Historically, mobile qb's break down more frequently.

Maybe that will change going forward with the influx over tbe last two years of guy who can run and throw equally as well.

The guys that run put themselves at greater risk of injury. It's a fascinating debate that will play out over the next decade. If these guys stay healthy and effective running into their 30's then they will change the game and the concept of how to play qb in the NFL.

If they can't stay on the field or if they have their mobility curtailed by age and injury it will create a dilemma for NFL fro t offices.

Is it better for a franchise too invest picks and lots of money in a less injury prone pocket qb or is it better to go with the more explosive mobile qb knowing his window of elite play could be shorter, if better.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

I think what it boils down to is being the best. Marino and Fouts were not runners but they are amongs the best qb's to play the game. I just want a qb that can achieve the maximum. Give me a Fouts or a Tarkenton and I am happy.

Good analysis Realist

Marino was "mobile" in his own way. He had the feet of a boxer, and could shift in the pocket quickly and easily. He was, by no means, flat footed...and after his achilles injury it was obvious he wasn't the same QB.

I always like to equate things to basketball. In BBall, you have the high flyers that are great...but those who can shoot from outside so they can be successful after their legs start getting old are the ones that are the best (e.g. Michael Jordan). Same goes for QBs. If a "running" QB is accurate enough to stay in the pocket, he'll lengthen his career by doing so. It's a fact. But, he can always be a "threat" to run! The key is to do it at the right time and in the right way.

This whole running qb's getting hurt is the biggest mind job in the world and is intended to slow the development of the inevitable dual threat qb's.

Do you really believe that you are safer sitting in the pocket with your eyes downfield getting blindsided by a guy that weights 260-300lbs? what about starring down the barrel of a LB blitz? lol i cant believe that people who watch football can actually believe this so lets really look at it

QB injuries 2012
Week4: Jake Locker SACKED by glover quin, shoulder, out for season
Week5: Matt Cassel SACKED concussion, out for weeks
Week6: Kevin Kolb SACKED, ribs, out for weeks
Week8: Ryan tannehill SACKED by jets calvin pace and knocked out of game
Week10: Mike Vick SACKED (in pocket), concussion, out for weeks
Week11: Blaine Gabbert SACKED torn labrum out for season
Week12: Jay Cutler SACKED, neck injury, out for weeks
Week16: Brandon Weeden SACKED by von miller and out for rest of season
Week16: Carson Palmer CRUSHED by greg hardy, out for season
Week16: Greg McElroy SACK concussion, out for season

Wow so safe in the pocket. Now lets go to RG3 in week 14 scrambles gets injured and now running qb's dont last. Now no one remembers all of the pocket guys that got injured for the year lol. Dont forget RG3 only missed 1 game. Soooo yeah pure pocket passer man lol, please...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2013 07:17AM by Miami Reppa.

Miami Reppa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This whole running qb's getting hurt is the
> biggest mind job in the world and is intended to
> slow the development of the inevitable dual threat
> qb's.
>
> Do you really believe that you are safer sitting
> in the pocket with your eyes downfield getting
> blindsided by a guy that weights 260-300lbs? what
> about starring down the barrel of a LB blitz? lol
> i cant believe that people who watch football can
> actually believe this so lets really look at it
>
> QB injuries 2012
> Week4: Jake Locker SACKED by glover quin,
> shoulder, out for season
> Week5: Matt Cassel SACKED concussion, out for
> weeks
> Week6: Kevin Kolb SACKED, ribs, out for weeks
> Week8: Ryan tannehill SACKED by jets calvin pace
> and knocked out of game
> Week10: Mike Vick SACKED (in pocket), concussion,
> out for weeks
> Week11: Blaine Gabbert SACKED torn labrum out for
> season
> Week12: Jay Cutler SACKED, neck injury, out for
> weeks
> Week16: Brandon Weeden SACKED by von miller and
> out for rest of season
> Week16: Carson Palmer CRUSHED by greg hardy, out
> for season
> Week16: Greg McElroy SACK concussion, out for
> season
>
> Wow so safe in the pocket. Now lets go to RG3 in
> week 14 scrambles gets injured and now running
> qb's dont last. Now no one remembers all of the
> pocket guys that got injured for the year lol.
> Dont forget RG3 only missed 1 game. Soooo yeah
> pure pocket passer man lol, please...

It's not about the pocket being safer. Football is a violent sport. It's wht they don't let girls play.

The issue that gm's will face is that pocket qb's beat you with their ARM whereas running qb's, at least historically, beat you with heir mobility. Excluding the last two years, most mobile qb's we've seen like Vick, tebow, Mcnabb, Cunningham etc have faded once they lost their legs. Once they got north of 30 or suffered leg injuries that reduced their mobility their effectiveness dropped because they weren't accurate enough to be classic pocket passers.

Maybe that doesn't happen with this new crop. Maybe it does. Personally I believe they are all better passers than their predecessors but we will have to wait and see how it plays out.

But put yourself in a gm's role. You have a 28 year old franchise qb with a shredead knee or ruptured achilies and you have to decide whether to give him a 7 year $140 million contract.

Are you going to sleep better at night giving committing that kind of money to Andrew Luck or Russell Wilson/rg3/Colin kapernick?

Who is the last running qb to be a great qb into their mid-late 30's?

Like I said before, it's a fascinating debate.

It's hard to argue that RB's don't last as long as QB's. The new age Qb is turning himself into a RB, therefore he will not last as long as a QB that doesn't run.

It's not just about the one hit when a Qb is out for the game or season. It happens at every position. It's also about the wear and tear he will take into his late 20's.

Let's see what this new group looks like at age 32.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

ok eesti you seem to be a rational person it is perceived that running puts a qb at greater risk than being in the pocket, based on my arguments do you still believe this to be true? If so why, I am curious...

And i do not agree that you can compare a mobile qb to a running back there is such a huge difference that I honestly dont know where to begin...

Furthermore I challenge anyone reading this to search the literature going back to the 1800's and find me even 5 instances where a qb was significantly injured running past the line of scrimmage (i gave over 10 of injuries that happened in the pocket just this year alone!). And this notion that they wont last there is absolutely NOTHING to support that. Truthfully I expected stronger evidence to you guys opinions because honestly I dont understand where they are coming from...

Dan marino was the biggest pocket passer there was and i wouldnt change an afternoon watching dan in those days for anything.

I wish Tannehill becomes a pocket passer like dan was or relatively close.

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dan marino was the biggest pocket passer there was
> and i wouldnt change an afternoon watching dan in
> those days for anything.
>
> I wish Tannehill becomes a pocket passer like dan
> was or relatively close.

Yeah i loved watching Marion sling it as well and if you want tannehill to be a pocket passer hey thats your prerogative. And I accept that. However I dont understand why there is such a hatred or taboo for a qb if he has the ability to pass and also attack a defense with his feet... They say the qb will be more prone to injury, what i am trying to convay in this topic is that is absolutely not true. So why are people saying it and why are people believing it when there is NO evidence what so ever to support any of it?

Cam Newton, Colin Kaepernick, Russell wilson, Robert Griffin

Three rookies and one second year guy. Tagging any of them as 'elite' is a little premature. Newton certainly hasn't set the world on fire this season, RGIII may now be damaged goods Kapernick will be a flash in the pan mark my words. He's fun to watch but the 'niners would be there with or without him. Wilson may be the most promising of the bunch to me he's more of a scrambler and has better accuracy and decision making than the other three combined.


I think your mistaking media fascination with results. Look at Vick. For several years he was the highlight on every sports show, on the cover of every video game and ALWAYS in the pro-bowl. But made the playoffs only twice in 6 years at ATL and never won more than one game. Since he left they've won 3 division titles and been to the playoffs 4 of 5 years.

Young guys with dynamic personalities and lots of young-guy athleticism are fun to watch but history is pretty conclusive if you look at it. Name me a modern era 'read-option' QB in the HOF. I can name this page full of pocket passers.

Tannehill has the arm to be a Marino, and the upside is that he's not afraid to run if necessary (the guy was a receiver). Something Marino rarely did.

Surround him with talent, and I think we're post season bound for years to come. At least that's what I'm hoping for.

Wow someone with a solid opinion

KB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cam Newton, Colin Kaepernick, Russell wilson,
> Robert Griffin
>
> Three rookies and one second year guy. Tagging
> any of them as 'elite' is a little premature.
> Newton certainly hasn't set the world on fire this
> season, RGIII may now be damaged goods Kapernick
> will be a flash in the pan mark my words. He's
> fun to watch but the 'niners would be there with
> or without him. Wilson may be the most promising
> of the bunch to me he's more of a scrambler and
> has better accuracy and decision making than the
> other three combined.
>

Yes you are right it is a bit premature but there is no question they are talented enough to be called franchise players. And colin was an elite player at the college level and the only reason he was not drafted in the first round was because he went to Nevada (oh thats 2 second years and 2 rookies but I know what you ment

> I think your mistaking media fascination with
> results. Look at Vick. For several years he was
> the highlight on every sports show, on the cover
> of every video game and ALWAYS in the pro-bowl.
> But made the playoffs only twice in 6 years at ATL
> and never won more than one game. Since he left
> they've won 3 division titles and been to the
> playoffs 4 of 5 years.

When vick was there, love or hate his game play, he single handedly took them to the playoffs and gave them there success, he has a 100 million dollar contract that proves it. Anyone around the team or having two eyes will tell you the same. Since he left there has been a regime overhaul and I am sure that you wont dispute that the right regime can instantly change an organization so I think the credit goes more to the coaching staff, overall improved team and scheme than the loss of a single player...

> Young guys with dynamic personalities and lots of
> young-guy athleticism are fun to watch but history
> is pretty conclusive if you look at it. Name me a
> modern era 'read-option' QB in the HOF. I can
> name this page full of pocket passers.

I am sure that you can, I am sure we both can lol. Now here is my biggest problem when i hear those type of comments, it is something called statistic/ probability. How many "pocket" passing qb's has this game seen going back to the 40's? like a hundred thousand, and now how many read option qb's has this game seen at the professional level? Can you even name 20?

I can gaurentee you that a read option qb will have more success in this game than a pocket passer on "average". Maybe if I have some time we can look at this pass three years since the NFL I think has finally stopped turning read option qb's into WR's

Reppa is just trying to politely say that athletic QB's are better than pure pocket passers because Kapernick is doing well in as SF's new QB. However what he fails to mention is that running QB's have a short life span in the NFL, and that it takes smarts more than athleticism to play the QB postion. Take for instance the QB's that can read defenses well before the ball is snapped compared to those that can't. Reppa your argument is weak at best because athletic QB's end up hurt and washed up way before their time usually.

I can only think of a few that have won a starting job that are the "new breed" of running QB's....

Vick, Newton, RG3, KC and Wilson. These are guys that have sub 4.5 speed. There is hardly enough evidence to make a final claim but we have seen Vick miss many games and RG3 should have been on IR after his regular season injury. That's 2/5 and it it still very early in their careers.

KC has played about half a season.

Prior to these guys there were "mobile" QB's but none with the elite speed of a Vick or RG3. Tarkenton, Cunningham? not even close.

Newton and Vick are the only evidence of any of them with more than 1 season under their belt. They did not do all that well this year...unless you want to include Joe Webb who hasn't done anything as a QB.

As I read in an article yesterday that quoted NFL scouts...they basically said this league always goes full circle in that fads come and go. This option offense has been done until teams figured out how to stop it. It is only a matter of time before they stop it again (ala the wildcat). This is a pocket passing league...so he says...and alway will be in the long term.

.....................................................................................
“I'm here" You're welcome!" - Kenny Powers

Reppa, I agree with you and KB, the thing that takes the gloss off your point that you can name a "boatload" of pocket passers that are successful but only a few of the run and gun QBs is that football is now seeing an evolution from the pocket passer to the run and gun QB.

Vick and those early guys were just the beginnings. Earlier guys like Fran Tarkenton, and Griese WHEN HE WAS IN COLLEGE AT PURDUE AND BEFORE SHULA BROKE HIM OF THE HABIT, were called "scramblers." They were entirely different from the Cam Newton, etc. onslaught.

That onslaught is here to stay. Twenty years from now, it will be RARE to find the "pure pocket passer" and a QB who is not a run and gun QB. Your point now KB is about as fair as someone would be in 20 years if they said, "Count how many QBs in the last 20 years were pure pocket passers as opposed to run and gun guys."

Last year, of the new guys, only Luck was as close as one would get to an old pocket passer and he has shown he has great wheels himself and an ability to pass on the dead run.

Finshady Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Reppa is just trying to politely say that athletic
> QB's are better than pure pocket passers because
> Kapernick is doing well in as SF's new QB.

No I am not saying they are, Im stating a fact of life. A guy that can dunk and shoot is better than a guy that can only shoot, i cant understand why people are having such a hard time understanding...

> However what he fails to mention is that running
> QB's have a short life span in the NFL.

Shorter life span? what do you mean? give examples or evidence dont just make a blanket statement...

and that
> it takes smarts more than athleticism to play the
> QB postion.

Yeah but what if you have both smarts and athleticism? you know that is possible... so how is that not better than having only smarts?

Take for instance the QB's that can
> read defenses well before the ball is snapped
> compared to those that can't.

Hold on are you implying that just because a qb is atheletic that he cannot read defenses and because your a pocket passer you can? Do you realize that Dan Marino, one of the greatest pocket passers of all times was the worst at reading defenses! Come on man stop it, all successful qb's in this modern era can read defenses, I cant believe you still think that. Now your showing your age lol


Reppa your argument
> is weak at best because athletic QB's end up hurt
> and washed up way before their time usually.

Please again give me examples not blanket statements. If we want to just toss out unsupported opinion i can say I think louisiana-Monroe will play dominate college football and play for a BSC championship next year... see how silly one can sound

Miami Reppa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
>
> THE Truth Wrote:
> > The issue that gm's will face is that pocket
> qb's
> > beat you with their ARM whereas running qb's,
> at
> > least historically, beat you with heir mobility.
>
> > Excluding the last two years, most mobile qb's
> > we've seen like Vick, tebow, Mcnabb, Cunningham
> > etc have faded once they lost their legs. Once
> > they got north of 30 or suffered leg injuries
> that
> > reduced their mobility their effectiveness
> dropped
> > because they weren't accurate enough to be
> classic
> > pocket passers.


>
> Mike vick in 2010 was MVP runner up and can beat
> you with his feet or arm, tebow was never a good
> NFL qb, Mcnabb has an outside shot of making the
> HOF and fell off when he changed systems (not
> uncommon look at joe montana), cunningham at 35
> with vikings had one of the best passing years of
> his career 3700+ yds, 34TD, 10int... im just
> saying


McNabb: I agree. he's a boarder line HOF'er. But His rushing numbers fell off a cliff after the last time he rushed for 200 yards in a season at the age of 21. At the age of 35 he was out of the league.

Tebow: You are right...doesn't belong on thelist.

Vick: Had a great come back year in 2010 at the age of 30. But can't beat you from the pocket and has struggled (excluding that one season) as his rushing numbers dropped from a career high 1039 on 2006 to 332 this past year.

Cunningham: Had a career year on a loaded tam at the age of 34 in Minneosta. But that doesn't change the fact that his numbers took a nose dive after the age of 29 when his elite rushing skills ceased to become a a major factor. At 29 he went for 549 yards. over the next 8 years he broke 200 yards once, not coincidentally he struggled to stay on the field after that.

The reason is that pocket QB's spend their lives beating you with their ARM. So long as its healthy they can play at a high level...and lets face it...most QB injuries are NOT arm injuries.

Whereas running QB's rely on their legs. Once their legs start to go from age, wear and tear or injury their game falls off because they are forced to become something they haven not been all their lives: a pocket QB.

Not that they aren't capable of putting together a special year in their mid to late 30's if they stay healthy and feel good, but its been the exception...not the rule.

Cunningham's last good year was when he was 34 and it was an aberration. His last good year before that was when he was 31.

Mcnabb's last solid season was when he was 33....he was done at 35.

Vick had a terrific year at 30 after two years off from the game. Since then he's come back to earth and been injury prone. He's 32 now and who is going to give him elite money?

I'd argue those guys are the 3 best mobile QB's in the last 25 years.

Now compare their numbers in their 30's to elite pocket passers in their mid -late 30's like Marino, Favre, Manning, Brady, etc..etc... Its not even close.

As I mentioned in an earlier post. If you are a GM and you have to choose between committing 7 years and $140 mill to a 28 year old QB...a guy who will be the face of your franchise until he is 35...i think that based on past history, its awfully hard to make that type of commitment to a mobile QB. You know the bottom is likely to fall out during that contract...you just don't know when.


Maybe all that changes with this new crop of mobile guys. Maybe it doesn't. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

chrisnnavarre Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That onslaught is here to stay. Twenty years
> from
> > now, it will be RARE to find the "pure pocket
> > passer" and a QB who is not a run and gun QB.
>
> The only argument I have with this is that you
> need to keep your QB healthy throughout the entire
> season, and hopefully for the sake of the
> franchise he's healthy for at least 7 years. The
> size and speed of modern day defensive players
> make this idea delusional.

I think you might a bit be wrong on assuming that these Colin Kaepernick's and Ryan Tannehill's and even RGIII's get tackled a lot.

Just like the scramblers of ole, that's just simply not the case.

They are as elusive as hell.

You assume that because they are running with the ball, they are just like running backs in the open field.

A running back in the open field will try to evade IF POSSIBLE but if not, he'll have to run you over.

A quarterback in the open field will, if close to being tackled, either run out of bounds or slide down. When he slides down, heaven help the defender who gives him a shot.

I just simply don't know what you guys who say that these running QBs have a shorter life span are talking about.

Your greatest example of RGIII and his recent injury proves THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF YOUR POINT. RGIII's last injury did not even come from contact but from him running on a play (I believe it was in a red zone) which ALL QUARTERBACKS may have to run. It had nothing to do with being hit, either in the body or in the leg. It was either the ground and how he stepped on it or it gave way on it's own.

miami reppa: However I dont understand why there is such a hatred or taboo for a qb if he has the ability to pass and also attack a defense with his feet...

No hatred at all i just dont want tannehill to end up like RG3 did.


Having to do surgery on one of his knees.

But as I remember, eesti (yeah I remember the prior contact thing and that's why I posted that he should never have been playing) even that prior contact was not to the legs. As I remember (and I could very well be wrong) the contact was not to the legs but he sprained the knee at the time of contact.

samsam3738 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> miami reppa: However I dont understand why there
> is such a hatred or taboo for a qb if he has the
> ability to pass and also attack a defense with his
> feet...
>
> No hatred at all i just dont want tannehill to end
> up like RG3 did.
>
>
> Having to do surgery on one of his knees.


come on dude some of the worst and most GRUESOME leg injuries comes from standing in the pocket, remember CUNNINGHAM throwing and a DL fell on his knee, what about CARSON PALMER how his leg buckeled against the steelers, and what about TOM TERRIFIC? I believe they made the brady rule after the goldenboy got his knee blown out from a fat boy rolling up on it. And not to mention JOE THIESMAN, how nasty was that? His leg broke in like 1000 pieces from throwing in the pocket and LT crushing it. Yeah stay in the pocket its the safest thing for your knees lol. Come on kid RG3 went into a slide and his leg whipped against haloti ngata who weights like 800lbs. It was a freak accident and you can search the football literature no qb has ever gotten a sprained knee when getting hit on a slide.

Reppa, that was something like my memory of RGIII's original injury. Is that what you are referring to?